161 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

ScrapIron Prime, on 31 March 2022 - 03:14 PM, said:

Once you learn the new maps, snipers will be less of a burden on you. But yeah, the game style changed and short or medium range builds have to be very careful with their movement in the open.

I adapted to it by adding several high DPS 100kph medium mechs to my stable. Snipers often isolate themselves from the bulk of their team and hunting them down is both rewarding and satisfying. They're particularly vulnerable on HPG and Emerald Vale (unless the whole team ridge-deploys with them).

LordNothing, on 31 March 2022 - 03:27 PM, said:

there is no sniper position without a covered approach. most maps give you options for closing under cover. new maps are even better at it. the new map, even though i only played it twice, i felt that dispite the sniper positions, there was ample cover to allow some avoidance maneuvers.

pattonesque, on 01 April 2022 - 06:37 AM, said:

A few days ago I was lucky enough to be running a 6ERLL SNV on new Frozen. I started trading with a Rifleman-IIC across the chasm. He was running LPLs and traded with me, without twisting or going into cover, five times with predictable results. It's stuff like that, where people repeatedly make suboptimal decisions, which leads me to believe that "snipers OP" can mostly be solved by gameplay changes.

Damn all of you for taking responsibility for applying logic and reason and countering the perceived sniper issue...

[feeWAIVER]

The sniper meta does suck though.
They buffed cool down, heat, hsl, etc.
And on top of that they buffed armor and structure, component hp, and spread critical chance defense across many mechs.

Meaning snipers hit harder now, and faster,
And when they get fire returned there is less consequence.

Less risk, more reward.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 01 April 2022 - 07:19 AM.

[Zeddicuus]

You could just use the 'watch the shiny coin' tactic. Keep the sniper distracted (not necessarily with your cockpit, but hey whatever works) while the lights sneak up behind them and tear them apart.

I got beat up pretty badly doing this tactic, but the sniper was taken down. Some people have a hard time resisting a slow moving Timberwolf. I just crack back with ERLL to keep their attention on me and not their radar.

Not the most ideal tactic, but hey if it works. THough the better option is to duck from cover to cover trying to get close enough to blast back.

Edited by Zeddicuus, 01 April 2022 - 07:25 AM.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

The sniper meta does suck though.
They buffed cool down, heat, hsl, etc.
And on top of that they buffed armor and structure, component hp, and spread critical chance defense across many mechs.

Meaning snipers hit harder now, and faster,
And when they get fire returned there is less consequence.

Less risk, more reward.

Everything is relative.

Less risk, more reward yes. But that's less risk than before, where the risks were "getting brawled 100% of the time because no sniper weapon had the throughput to even stop slow brawlers" and the reward is "snipers are capable of killing things now" which hasn't been the case, really, since jump sniper meta in 2013.

[Corbantu]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

And on top of that they buffed armor and structure, component hp, and spread critical chance defense across many mechs.

Wouldn't this just favor everyone? Like make the fights last longer without favoring a specific build?

[pattonesque]

I'd have to go mech by mech but I'm pretty sure the majority of armor buffs went to mechs that favor close-range builds. Centurions, as an example

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 01 April 2022 - 07:51 AM, said:

I'd have to go mech by mech but I'm pretty sure the majority of armor buffs went to mechs that favor close-range builds. Centurions, as an example

Yep, Centurions and Dragons are the kings of Tank in their weight class right now. Add in some killer quirks, like a whopping 40% cooldown bonus on LBX for the CN9-D, and you have some mighty brawlers there.

https://mwo.nav-alph...=cbabd6f0_CN9-D
https://mwo.nav-alph...18704_DRG-FLAME

[feeWAIVER]

Corbantu, on 01 April 2022 - 07:49 AM, said:

Wouldn't this just favor everyone? Like make the fights last longer without favoring a specific build?

In theory yes, but you get more effective mileage out of it the less hits you take.
So a sniper or poptart has less risk and can survive exponentially longer, and thereby pump out exponentially more damage in that extra time.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 08:16 AM, said:

In theory yes, but you get more effective mileage out of it the less hits you take.
So a sniper or poptart has less risk and can survive exponentially longer, and thereby pump out exponentially more damage in that extra time.

Yeah but they still have the baggage of being mostly high-alpha, low heat efficiency, low dps, low speed mechs.

My marauder II sniper literally relies on me practicing trigger discipline, hiding at a distance with stealth armor, and getting opportune shots. The moment it faces incoming fire, it folds.

[feeWAIVER]

pattonesque, on 01 April 2022 - 07:51 AM, said:

I'd have to go mech by mech but I'm pretty sure the majority of armor buffs went to mechs that favor close-range builds. Centurions, as an example

This is true, but generally speaking, everyone got buffed.

Another big problem is how they homogenized the defensive quirks across variants.
Battlemaster, is one example, but there are many.. where it had 1 extra tanky variant with no weapon quirks.
Now all the variants have that tankability, and the previous tank variant is compensated with some garbage quick like 10% missile cool down or something...
Atlas D is another example. Hunchback 4SP, etc.
They kinda removed that niche, and made those particular mechs crap. Meanwhile if everyone's a tank, then noone is, as they buffed weapon heat, damage, cool down, hsl to counter all these "tanks" on the battlefield.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 01 April 2022 - 04:02 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

And let's be honest. People say they made snipers viable.
They've always been viable.
But now instead of seeing 1 or 2 on your team, it's not uncommon to see 6-8 people fighting at 800m+, with the new "front line" being 3 or 4 fighting at 500m, and a 1 or 2 lights.

It's not uncommon to see every assault on your team shooting blue Lasers from the back.
And missiles of all type are weaker now than they've ever been.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 08:37 AM, said:

And let's be honest. People say they made snipers viable.
They've always been viable.
But now instead of seeing 1 or 2 on your team, it's not uncommon to see 6-8 people fighting at 800m+, with the new "front line" being 3 or 4 fighting at 500m, and a 1 or 2 lights.

It's not uncommon to see every assault on your team shooting blue Lasers from the back.
And missiles of all type are weaker now than they've ever been.

I don't really think that's true.

[feeWAIVER]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 08:38 AM, said:

I don't really think that's true.

I've posted screenshots of it before, but ymmv I guess.

[VaMPHuNT]

Neutron IX, on 31 March 2022 - 02:33 PM, said:

So due to several life things happening, I haven't played at all in months, and before that it was rarely.

Past couple days though, finally been getting a decent stretch of games in, and I have...questions.

Is it just me, or does the game seem dominated by sniping right now, especially on the new map? I've been in match after match with my brawler builds, and am routinely losing large portions of my armor, if not my mech itself to opponents I can't even see, and it feels like moving to cover against one, just opens you up to another one at a different angle. All the while it's impossible to return fire because I can't even see the attacker, and even if I could, I have an LB20 and SRMs or something.

I'm finding my PSR absolutely tanking (which I don't care a ton about) and actual wins feel few and far between (which is a bigger bummer).

Is this playstyle the new reality? Am I best to just shrug and say "So be it" and set all my mechs up with ERLL and stuff? I've never been great at sniping, and don't find it much fun to begin with, but is that really where all this is headed? Why are weapon ranges so damn ridiculous right now? Or at least, why does it feel that way?

Because so far, it's not real fun.

I just want to understand the end-game goal, because initially I thought the idea was to promote a diversity of builds as viable, and the way it seems at the moment is it's all snipe, snipe, snipe.

So yeah, help me out here. Is this something people are honestly finding to be fun? And if so, how do I find that fun, and enjoy it myself.

I really want to play my new Crusader when it comes out.

As far as sniping or long-range mechs go, they're generally going to be able to out-do a mech that's built with point-blank combat in mind if it doesn't have speed. I've also found myself avoiding weapons such as LB10's, SRMs, MRMs, etc, simply due to the fact that yes, they do have super high damage numbers, but their actual applied killing power at anything farther than arm's reach is extremely lacking. Scary, but not as dangerous as they might seem.

Depending on what mech you're in I'd suggest looking into LPL/ERML combos, pick mechs that have decent hardpoint placement (Roughneck 3A, Banshee 3M, Mad Dog Bandit/Ebon Jaguar Espirit de Corps with UAC builds, etc) so that you can effectively trade at 400-600 meters, and that either have decent enough speed to close into optimal range or enough armor that you can twist and shrug off the damage as you close in.

Another big thing is map knowledge. I'd strongly suggest going into testing grounds and running around the different maps in a decent-speed light/medium to get an idea for how you can approach different locations that are common sniper nests, or even use the https://maps.mwocomp.com/ website to get a top-down view of the maps and make notes you can follow during your own drops.

EDIT: Otherwise, another solid piece of advice is to find a unit to join up with and get people you can group up and drop with that you can rely on, even if it's as little as maneuvering around the map together.

Edited by VaMPHuNT, 01 April 2022 - 08:50 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 07:24 AM, said:

Everything is relative.

Less risk, more reward yes. But that's less risk than before, where the risks were "getting brawled 100% of the time because no sniper weapon had the throughput to even stop slow brawlers" and the reward is "snipers are capable of killing things now" which hasn't been the case, really, since jump sniper meta in 2013.

You don't think it was working as intended that a mech that can fire 1000m will get wrecked by a brawler?
And you don't believe people used ERLL and ERPPC from 2013-2021 to great effect? Because they did.

The difference now is that max range is so rewarding and so commonplace, that anyone choosing to solo drop in a brawler is gimping themselves. They can't rely on their team that wants to fight max range, and they can't rely on their own damage to quickly break through all the random armor/structure/crit buffs that have been sprinkled across all the variants before they get plugged by someone else's gauss shell at 800m.

[Corbantu]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 08:37 AM, said:

But now instead of seeing 1 or 2 on your team, it's not uncommon to see 6-8 people fighting at 800m+, with the new "front line" being 3 or 4 fighting at 500m, and a 1 or 2 lights.

Something I've noticed is the significant impact ecms make now. Instead of using them to flank and back shoot peopl, having an ECM in these ranged firing lines makes a major difference. I've been rocking a slow ecm commando the last couple days and just hanging out at the firing line with 1ERLL I feel like our line tends to win those shootouts more often than not. Especially when the otherine doesn't have an ecm.

I don't think sniping is the OP meta same for LRMs ,even though I do dislike LRM cats. I think the community just hasn't adapted properly yet.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 09:06 AM, said:

You don't think it was working as intended that a mech that can fire 1000m will get wrecked by a brawler?
And you don't believe people used ERLL and ERPPC from 2013-2021 to great effect? Because they did.

PPCs get used on midrange builds too, so this one can be ruled out. ERLL is the outlier, being the only weapon that didn't get completely destroyed for sniping. Ghost heat, jump jet reticle shake, the generally lowered power of jumpjets, gauss charge, all of these things were put in place to limit snipers. They're still in place, just the weapons do a bit more damage now.

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 09:06 AM, said:

The difference now is that max range is so rewarding and so commonplace, that anyone choosing to solo drop in a brawler is gimping themselves. They can't rely on their team that wants to fight max range, and they can't rely on their own damage to quickly break through all the random armor/structure/crit buffs that have been sprinkled across all the variants before they get plugged by someone else's gauss shell at 800m.

The difference now is you arent used to dealing with snipers and you're mad about it.

Flip the tables

How would you feel if your choice of build was brawling, but for the last 8 years alpha was so high brawlers were completely useless, and now for the first time in the better part of a decade you could brawl again, only for people on the forums to whine that brawlers did too much DPS at close range and their durability was way too high.


We can have that conversation. It'll go nowhere. Im not here to argue that balance is prefect right now, but snipers being able to perform is important for the health of this game. I don't think they should be anymore powerful than they are now, but they certainly shouldn't be any less.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 09:25 AM.

[Neutron IX]

Thanks for the spirited participation all. And look, I'm going to be real here. I am not steady enough on my mouse to play a Sniper. Never have been. My family is cursed with "Essential Tremors", so pinpoint builds, especially laser boat versions, are just never going to be something I excel at. I have always leaned into various missile and medium to short range ballistic builds to offset this, and found success in doing so.

I am, traditionally, an excellent LRM boater, who very much prefers LRM-ishing over potato lobbing from the back, so trust me, all you moderately offended snipers out there, I get it. You're feeling hated on, and perhaps unjustifiable backlash from the community over your preferred role and playstyle. I don't fault you on this.

My intention here is simply to wrap my head around the way the game changed while I was gone dealing with some real life junk. I had several very good T1 players I've known for years warn me about the Sniper Meta. I don't know how that fits with actual player stats, and I get that it's anecdotal, but it's still a bummer. And my own experiences with this meta have been frustrating, sure, but I've never given up on trying to adapt, nor will I ever. I adjusted to Pop-Tarts, and so on, and so on, and I'll figure this out, but there are growing pains, is what I was trying to express here.

And yes, my own experiences, especially on the newer maps, reflect more often than not those that others have related here.

Drop into a match in a mid-range or brawler build (my preferred style, see above) and notice that 6 or 8 of the team is heading to the outskirts of the engagement area and posting up to snipe, and that all of a sudden, myself and a few stragglers are the "The Front Line" on our own. It is frustrating. Plain and simple. Especially when you die and end up observing all the pristine Assaults firing ERLL builds from 1200 meters out. Like, where's the armor sharing here, homies?

But I'm not here to bag on snipers. If that's the meta, that's the meta, and here we are (though I do wonder what the Venn Diagram of people who play Assault Snipers and People who bag on Assault LRM boats looks like. )

I'm just saying that it's an adjustment, but as always, I'll figure it out. And I was wondering if people are finding it as fun as all that, because engaging enemies I can't see isn't enjoyable to me, personally, but maybe it's what the community actually wants, I don't know?

Either way, thanks all for the spirited discussion, and various perspectives. I do like the idea of the AW SRM Sniper chaser build. I may have to try that out. It's akin to the LCT-PB Assault LRM hunting gig, which is fun sometimes too, you just don't seem to see that scenario as often anymore maybe.

Anyhow, either way, love this game. Gonna keep loving it. Salty Sniper Nights or no.

[VaMPHuNT]

Given your situation with the tremors, if you want to run more brawly builds, you don't exactly have to avoid pinpoint lasers. Just look at lasers that have very short durations such as large/medium pulses. Taking all four laser duration nodes in Firepower will reduce the burn time of LPL/ER smalls to 0.63ish.

I can't recommend enough the Charger 3K and Charger 1A1 for close-quarters brawling. My 3K is fit with 4x LPL while the 1A1 has 2x LPL and 5x ER smalls (Killer DPS and range given its quirks). Can easily get that 1A1 moving 81kph with a light 350, but if you're gutsy can easily throw on an XL400 and get moving at 93.6kph. With the +50% range/-50% cooldown on STD/ER smalls for the 1A1, those lasers will reach out to 300 optimal and 600 maximum. Throw in skills, perhaps a TC1, can get them out closer to 660-670ish.

Another big thing about brawling, which you're probably already aware of, is simply patience. Sure, you and three other mechs might be "the front line", but if you set your line up where your sniping assaults and backline have sight on, can easily draw enemies into a funnel or into a killing ground. Let your long-range mechs soften them up, then move in for the kill.

Another option for you would be something like light/snub nose/heavy PPCs for IS. Light and Snub PPCs can generally replace medium and medium pulse lasers or equivalent ballistic weapons such as AC5's/10's, while a heavy PPC can act in place of a LPL or AC20. One shot, front-loaded damage, no ammo to worry about.

EDIT: Went ahead and tinkered some, and came up with a potential build. Ranges match up for the most part, but on a light 400, this is a fairly scary and fast assault.

https://mwo.nav-alph...48317cc_CGR-1A1

Edited by VaMPHuNT, 01 April 2022 - 10:41 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 09:24 AM, said:

PPCs get used on midrange builds too, so this one can be ruled out. ERLL is the outlier, being the only weapon that didn't get completely destroyed for sniping. Ghost heat, jump jet reticle shake, the generally lowered power of jumpjets, gauss charge, all of these things were put in place to limit snipers. They're still in place, just the weapons do a bit more damage now.



The difference now is you arent used to dealing with snipers and you're mad about it.

Flip the tables

How would you feel if your choice of build was brawling, but for the last 8 years alpha was so high brawlers were completely useless, and now for the first time in the better part of a decade you could brawl again, only for people on the forums to whine that brawlers did too much DPS at close range and their durability was way too high.


We can have that conversation. It'll go nowhere. Im not here to argue that balance is prefect right now, but snipers being able to perform is important for the health of this game. I don't think they should be anymore powerful than they are now, but they certainly shouldn't be any less.

Dude, it's been a year.
Your whole argument is based on the false premise that snipers were bad for 8 years, and they simply were not.
They've always been strong. Have you ever played on Borreal Vault?

But now they've become the backbone of the meta, to point that if you want to play midrange you are now the defacto Frontline, because there is absolutely no one on your team that is going to willing or able to take point.