161 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Brawlers and snipers are both specialized strategies. Midrange has always been the front line.

[Neutron IX]

VaMPHuNT, on 01 April 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

Taking all four laser duration nodes in Firepower will reduce the burn time of LPL/ER smalls to 0.63ish.

How, in the names of all the GODS, have I missed this over the all these years?!!

I do not know where, or remember exactly when I got the apparently mistaken idea that these nodes specifically did NOT benefit pulses, but Holy Damn Banana, does my LCT-1V with LPL thank your for this correction!

I do love Snubbies, and have been running them with an AC20 on my "Super-Stock" MAD-3R since they day they dropped, long before it was even really viable. AC20 + dual Snubbies + dual MLs was my baby, until the balancing made the triple Snub version playable.

I actually can manage mid-range peek and poke stuff okay, and employ the Pulse + 1 size smaller ER combo pretty regularly on stuff (though again, the node info is a game changer, so thanks again for that). I love the look of that Charger build. Will definitely have to give it a try!

Where I run into trouble especially is on any medium or larger non-pulse laser builds on high speed lights (not steady enough to maintain my aim on the run), or on ER/Sniper builds of any variety that want me to use Enhanced Zoom...because yeah, keeping on target in zoom mode just ain't, and I mean ain't gonna happen.

Insta-fire/Splash damage/Locking weapons are my friend for sure.

Believe it or not (especially hard to believe considering my status on Jarl's List since my account name change from Rip Snorgan ) but I've managed plenty of 1k + games in my day, predominantly accomplished with LRM-ishing builds, a couple of mid-range RAC + laser builds (counter-intuitive, I know it), and big AC plus SRM plus ML/Snubbie builds.

Even managed to pull an Ace of Spades twice, but so stupidly it was on an alt account (Blake Speare) both times, so I don't even get to rock the title on my main account, damn it. The builds on that were once with an AS7-D using AC20, dual SRM6+A, and quad MLs, and the other with an STK-3FB with dual LRM20+A, TAG, and ERMLs in all the other energy hardpoints. But even when I'm LRMing, if I end a match without at least some heavy scratches on my paint I feel like a I failed my team.

Anyhow, that's a long round-about way of saying, I do know I'll figure it out, and I do appreciate the input, feedback, and tips. It's just work to try and adjust to a game aspect that is really out of my wheelhouse, and will likely stay that way, because this isn't really a situation where I can play the "If I can't beat 'em, join 'em" card.

And I'm still learning the new maps to find cover, and in that process feeling repeatedly like on Emerald Vale especially there just isn't any, since it constantly feels like "Oh snap, getting sniped, better move." move to new location, and "Oh snap, how the hell am I still getting sniped from the opposite side." move, then "Damn it...dead or seriously gimped, from being sniped from a 3rd angle!"

But hey, I'll get there. And maybe they'll extend TAG and LRM ranges to match and I'll be able to counter better.

(Kidding. Because the waves of salt from a change like that would instantly evaporate us all. )

Anyhow. Cheers again! This is fun!

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:01 AM, said:

Brawlers and snipers are both specialized strategies. Midrange has always been the front line.

I know this will rub some the wrong way... But IMHO, a successful midrange player is a stronger player overall as they are more fixable and able to roll with a dynamically changing engagement.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've witnessed a brawler rage quit because snipers and and LURM'ers kept them at arms reach or watched a sniper resentfully unperch just to get involved with the larger melee...

What's the saying... "Jack of all trades is a master of none, but better than a master of one" or something like that?

[YueFei]

Speaking from my own personal experience:
My favorite playstyle is brawling. It also happens to be my most successful playstyle, in terms of W/L.

If I look at my mech stats, I can tell that my mid-range/long-range builds have a lower win/loss than my brawling builds. Brawling is definitely viable.

But one thing it is heavily dependent on is choosing a mech which is suitable for the role, either with hitboxes/quirks or speed. I don't really play the fast brawlers, and I tend to play slower brawlers, and for that you want a mech with big beefy arms that can be used as shields. This effectively gives you much much more hitpoints for soaking damage as you close in. You can make a couple mistakes and be exposed as you're closing and you can tank those hits on the arms and lose no combat power.

[pbiggz]

DaZur, on 01 April 2022 - 11:11 AM, said:

I know this will rub some the wrong way... But IMHO, a successful midrange player is a stronger player overall as they are more fixable and able to roll with a dynamically changing engagement.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've witnessed a brawler rage quit because snipers and and LURM'ers kept them at arms reach or watched a sniper resentfully unperch just to get involved with the larger melee...

What's the saying... "Jack of all trades is a master of none, but better than a master of one" or something like that?

I agree and disagree. Midrange has the fewest risks. The newer maps cater to a wide array of play styles, but the older ones are generally hostile either to snipers or brawlers. A brawler on old polar might as well have been a dead mech. A sniper on old HPG the same. Midrange has the best chance of finding somewhere to get some kills in.

Brawls and snipers on the other hand are extremely feast and famine. Positioning is everything, and theres a million and one things that can go wrong to end your game. Brawlers rely on forcing an engagement at close range, using ultra-high DPS and armor to win trades. Snipers rely on forcing an engagement at long range, using range, high alpha, and careful positioning to overcome the drawbacks of their own fragility, relatively low dps, and poor heat efficiency.

Pull either of those builds out of their optimal ranges and they collapse quickly. Lowreybalance^tm was heavily slated towards slow, high dps mechs, so naturally the shift towards faster mechs with higher alphas has been a shock. If you are a bad sniper, you will get punished. If you are a bad brawler, you will get punished. If you are a bad midrange, you still get punished, but since you took fewer risks, the punishment is never as bad.

Mind you im not saying midrange is OP, the point is for it to be a generalist play style. Lower risk, lower reward. They dont have the alpha of a sniper, or the DPS of a brawler, but they cant be sidelined as easily.

[VaMPHuNT]

I'd also maybe suggest looking into some of the more stable assault mechs for mid-range. Stalker as you mentioned is great for mid-range punch, Banshee 3M with 3x LPL in the upper mounts and 5x ERML in the rest, Charger 3K with 4x LPL, and once the Blood Asp E hits for cbills, a 4x LPL/2x ERML build will be my go-to for QP.

None of those mechs will move too quickly, give you a very stable firing platform, have great weapon placements, and have enough armor to shrug off harassment from the enemy's longer-ranged mechs until they can get into a good cover position.

As far as Emerald Vale goes, I generally avoid the center like the plague. Don't go there, trust me. Stick to the borders of C3/C4 and D3/D4 for the north, and E3/E4 and F3/F4 for the south. Trees are going to be annoying, but that gives you plenty of cover from enemy snipers, LPL can even trade with them to some degree, and well-placed artillery strikes can force them to back down for a time while you reposition or push. New Caustic Valley, though... that one's just garbage in my book.

If you're a faster-moving mech that can take the high ground on the extreme north or south of Emerald Vale, by all means take it. Looking at that Charger 1A1 here, it has enough DPS to out-trade any long-range brawlers one-on-one and force a close-range engagement, and if you have a medium mech or two with you, can virtually shut down any advantage the other team had by getting snipers up there.

Edited by VaMPHuNT, 01 April 2022 - 11:26 AM.

[KaptinOrk]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yep, Centurions and Dragons are the kings of Tank in their weight class right now. Add in some killer quirks, like a whopping 40% cooldown bonus on LBX for the CN9-D, and you have some mighty brawlers there.

https://mwo.nav-alph...=cbabd6f0_CN9-D
https://mwo.nav-alph...18704_DRG-FLAME

I recently picked up the Dragon DRG-1N and I'm having a blast brawling with it. I gave it some close range, high DPS weapons to take advantage of that flat 25% cooldown as well as a fat XL engine for that sweet, sweet double speed tweak life. Add the full survivability tree and twist like a madman for added tonk.

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 09:06 AM, said:

The difference now is that max range is so rewarding and so commonplace, that anyone choosing to solo drop in a brawler is gimping themselves. They can't rely on their team that wants to fight max range, and they can't rely on their own damage to quickly break through all the random armor/structure/crit buffs that have been sprinkled across all the variants before they get plugged by someone else's gauss shell at 800m.

I'm committed to solo dropping as a brawler for the sole purpose of going against the meta. My LB/10, SRM and SPLas builds are a digital middle fingers flown at the static, peek'n'poke gameplay that has become so prevalent. PSR be damned, I want to brawl!

Edited by KaptinOrk, 01 April 2022 - 02:05 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

KaptinOrk, on 01 April 2022 - 02:00 PM, said:

I'm committed to solo dropping as a brawler for the sole purpose of going against the meta. My LB/10, SRM and SPLas builds are a digital middle fingers flown at the static, peek'n'poke gameplay that has become so prevalent. PSR be damned, I want to brawl!

Nice.
I don't play much anymore, but when I do I've been running in a locust, because I'm so tired of unreliable teammates hiding behind each other. I feel like the meta is snipers and lights now. Everyone else is pug armor.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 01 April 2022 - 02:11 PM.

[East Indy]

feeWAIVER, on 01 April 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

But now they've become the backbone of the meta, to point that if you want to play midrange you are now the defacto Frontline, because there is absolutely no one on your team that is going to willing or able to take point.

The key is how this thread and others echo discussions about dominant long-range play over the years. It's entirely "Here's how to survive long enough to actually engage the players free-firing at you."

[Quandoo]

they swapped long time players for hopper who like free goodies. turns more and more into a mobile game

Edited by Quandoo, 02 April 2022 - 06:46 AM.

[Neutron IX]

East Indy, on 02 April 2022 - 06:10 AM, said:

The key is how this thread and others echo discussions about dominant long-range play over the years. It's entirely "Here's how to survive long enough to actually engage the players free-firing at you."

I will say this though, as someone who both LRM-ishes and and Brawls, I always found LRMs laughably easy to counter for the amount of salt they got. Especially when people were potato lobbing them from across the map. You have a warning telling you they're on their way, and loads of time to find cover before they hit you, and even though old Polar Highlands brought out much gnashing and wailing, there were plenty of low trenches and stuff to close a gap or take cover in if you just paid attention to the map.

The problem wasn't that it was impossible. The problem was that people never seemed to use that low ground, and just stood out in the open and moaned about it. At least from my perspective.

So if I ended up in my Brawler Atlas on Polar, I always knew where to go, and it never bothered me. Getting people to come along was a different story entirely. lol

But this new meta that I'm still trying to figure out is just a bit more difficult since you're taking fire before you even know you're being targeted or in someone's LOS, the damage is more pinpoint than the spread of LRMs, and you have to spend time trying to locate where it's coming from, as opposed to the very obvious stream of LRMs broadcasting the firers location during the long velocity time. Again, it's not impossible, but I would simply say that the long range LRM thing was/is far easier to counter in general compared to this, for a number of reasons.

I'm currently grinding the Platinum event with Jenners, but I did see some success to one of the counter strategies that's been mentioned here, when I hooked up with a couple of SRM equipped ACWs and went sniper hunting, so I recognize that as one viable counter at least.

Anyhow, I think you're overall point is good though, just personally feeling some key differences.

And to be fair, we generally do know the ways to best counter our own playstyles over others, simply because we learn what other people use successfully against us, which could also be why I find LRMs so much easier to counter than snipers. Still though, I suspect those key differences are real.

[YueFei]

Neutron IX, on 02 April 2022 - 09:52 AM, said:

And to be fair, we generally do know the ways to best counter our own playstyles over others, simply because we learn what other people use successfully against us, which could also be why I find LRMs so much easier to counter than snipers. Still though, I suspect those key differences are real.

One key advantage that LRMs have over direct-fire is that if paired with effective spotting/UAV/NARC, it can deny movement and restrict positioning to areas that offer hard cover.

Against direct-fire weapons, it is possible and even advantageous to position yourself farther away from cover, instead of hugging it. For one thing, you can "slice the pie" better, and another factor is that this gives you the perspective advantage when peeking, allowing you to see the enemy before they can see you. With jump jets, this often means using very shallow vertical cover... which LRMs are going to fly right over the top of.

Sometimes after playing a bunch of games with no enemy LRMs, I forget, and then pay for it the hard way when I find myself in "soft cover", able to break line-of-sight to the launcher(s), but unable to block LRM arcs, and get obliterated because there's an enemy spotter 500 meters away out of my effective range (I'm a brawler) that's spotting for the LRMs. Or I get NARC'd. Or some enemy dove on my and threw a UAV directly over my head and it's above my ability to elevate to shoot it down (no arm weapons LOL, the price I pay for having two shield arms).

[East Indy]

Neutron IX, on 02 April 2022 - 09:52 AM, said:

Anyhow, I think you're overall point is good though, just personally feeling some key differences.

No, you made fair points. I generalized my language to avoid folks getting hung up on a key word. LRMs can get out of hand with certain maps and matchups, but don't have nearly the limitless skill ceiling as direct-fire. Among the very best players, there's a highly specific preference for game pacing — initial sighting, contests of skill with trading, jockeying for positions as the engagement evolves, and then the closing in for a coup de grace. It can be thrilling to watch and, if you're good enough, meaningfully participate in. The problem is that, like in reality, accurate long-range fire would almost always be the first choice. And as with HPG, it's at odds with what most players look forward to — and almost all marketing for MechWarrior and BattleTech depict — which is a scrum at 300 meters or less. In this game, sniping should never be a first choice and when it becomes one, as it has several times post-HSR, adjustments need to be made to match expectations and encourage real variety in tactical choices.

[Neutron IX]

East Indy, on 02 April 2022 - 04:27 PM, said:

No, you made fair points. I generalized my language to avoid folks getting hung up on a key word. LRMs can get out of hand with certain maps and matchups, but don't have nearly the limitless skill ceiling as direct-fire. Among the very best players, there's a highly specific preference for game pacing — initial sighting, contests of skill with trading, jockeying for positions as the engagement evolves, and then the closing in for a coup de grace. It can be thrilling to watch and, if you're good enough, meaningfully participate in. The problem is that, like in reality, accurate long-range fire would almost always be the first choice. And as with HPG, it's at odds with what most players look forward to — and almost all marketing for MechWarrior and BattleTech depict — which is a scrum at 300 meters or less. In this game, sniping should never be a first choice and when it becomes one, as it has several times post-HSR, adjustments need to be made to match expectations and encourage real variety in tactical choices.

This is a really great point! Can you imagine if all the marketing videos and cut-scenes and such were at sniping, or even max LRM range? Those could be some boring AF videos...

Edited by Neutron IX, 02 April 2022 - 06:44 PM.

[YueFei]

Neutron IX, on 02 April 2022 - 06:43 PM, said:

This is a really great point! Can you imagine if all the marketing videos and cut-scenes and such were at sniping, or even max LRM range? Those could be some boring AF videos...

Most of our visual media depicts combat happening at much closer ranges than they do in real life. Easier for the audience to relate to, more visceral, etc. A lot of visual sci-fi settings thus also depict combat happening at very low speeds at point-blank ranges so that you can see opposing combatants in the same frame.

This contrasts with a lot of written sci-fi settings, for example the Bolo series, where the behemoth AI battletanks are described as having turrets that possess "snake like speed" in their traversal speeds. Fights are decided in split-seconds as soon as you have line-of-sight over the horizon, and Bolos will even snipe starships in orbit thousands of kilometers away. A lot of the tension of the combat comes as Bolos fence with their enemies with artillery and missiles while deploying recon probes and swatting enemy recon probes out of the sky with their own repeaters, to try to gain advantage so that they can get in that decisive first shot for the kill.

You can depict long-ranged combat in visual media in a compelling way, but it takes careful framing, pacing, and editing to put it all together in a way that the audience can follow. The Expanse does this beautifully, but it does require rapt attention by the viewer, because they depict things at the actual speeds of dozens of kilometers per second rather than WW2-dogfight-like speeds, and engagement distances of hundreds to thousands of kilometers. They do this with very rapid zooms, camera rotations around the various combatant vessels, and very tight editing.

Like, in theory Star Wars ships should have much higher performance and far greater accelerations than ships in The Expanse, but visually the ships in Star Wars are flying at hundreds of meters per second, rather than dozens of kilometers per second. In contrast, when The Expanse claims a ship is pushing 16+ g's, or a torpedo is screaming out at 100+ g's, they damn well depict those accelerations exactly as they'd look... and it makes Star Wars ships look like snails.

Edited by YueFei, 02 April 2022 - 09:28 PM.

[JudauAshta]

East Indy, on 02 April 2022 - 04:27 PM, said:

No, you made fair points. I generalized my language to avoid folks getting hung up on a key word. LRMs can get out of hand with certain maps and matchups, but don't have nearly the limitless skill ceiling as direct-fire. Among the very best players, there's a highly specific preference for game pacing — initial sighting, contests of skill with trading, jockeying for positions as the engagement evolves, and then the closing in for a coup de grace. It can be thrilling to watch and, if you're good enough, meaningfully participate in. The problem is that, like in reality, accurate long-range fire would almost always be the first choice. And as with HPG, it's at odds with what most players look forward to — and almost all marketing for MechWarrior and BattleTech depict — which is a scrum at 300 meters or less. In this game, sniping should never be a first choice and when it becomes one, as it has several times post-HSR, adjustments need to be made to match expectations and encourage real variety in tactical choices.

lurms are op in groups, run a premade with designated spotter/narcer and you'll do 1000+ damage almost every game.

IS lurms might better than clan, but clanner got insane volume and pressure. blood asp can do lurm 130 so can war hammer iic/nova cat....

[panzer1b]

Sniping has become way more popular, but i still generally see mid range to be the dominant platsyle under the vast majority of circumstances where the enemy team isnt actually protecting their snipers (i pretty much never see this in QP). Its fairly easy to get into 500-600m from the snipers and just play the high alpha trading game where a properly built HLL/LPL/LL+ERML vomit will do both more DPS and more alpha (and if its a heavy you are more agile too).

Yes the new map is very sniper friendly, but its also fine for brawling if you intelligently take advantage of the crapton of cover in the center and dont needlessly expose early. Ofc if the enemy has snipers on both the 2 sides, you are unlikely to find solid cover from both flanks, but then just pisk a side and push ignoring the other. Splitting apart extensively is autoloss if the enemy notices and pushes as a group.

Really the only truly scary snipers are ones like the 8 ac2 dire (which is sorta a hybrid between sniping and raw DPS, i often get over 1K dmg in mine when im not stupid or greedy and take my time hiding when i get shot too much). That or the PPFLD variety which sucks to get smacked by 50 or so damage from 1km away all to 1 component. Otherwise id rather be in a mid range mech and simply take advantage of the map layout to avoid anything outside of my effective range. Pure ERLLs in general spread too much and between the lack of sustained DPS and very spready damage (having to cycle beteen 3-4 fire groups is sorta gonna make said damage go anywhere but the 1 spot it needs to go).

[pbiggz]

JudauAshta, on 02 April 2022 - 10:56 PM, said:

lurms are op in groups,

No, they perform in group settings, with support, you know, the way they are supposed to.

I legitimately don't understand why people see someone doing well with something and think its "OP". Isn't making everything good and useable in the right situation, with the right choices and strategies, the point of balance? Unless of course your definition of balance is "whatever kills me is OP".

[JudauAshta]

pbiggz, on 03 April 2022 - 09:22 AM, said:

No, they perform in group settings, with support, you know, the way they are supposed to.

I legitimately don't understand why people see someone doing well with something and think its "OP". Isn't making everything good and useable in the right situation, with the right choices and strategies, the point of balance? Unless of course your definition of balance is "whatever kills me is OP".

so they are op in groups....
you didn't use any logic to dismiss my point??

[pbiggz]

JudauAshta, on 03 April 2022 - 09:43 AM, said:

so they are op in groups....
you didn't use any logic to dismiss my point??

Do you define OP as being good?