81 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

For the oldtimers among you: can you remember the hyper-quirked mechs with certain hallmarks? Some examples:

Huginn (Raven-H) - 30% CD on SRM4s (but I think no MG quirks)
Oxide (Jenner-O) - 20%ish CD on SRM4s
Grid Iron (Hunchback) - 30% CD on Gauss
Dragon N - I am not sure but I think AC quirk but I don't know anymore

Why not give them back these quirks? Before you cry out take into consideration the power creep which has taken place since these mechs were nerfed, these mechs wouldn't be op anymore.

What would balance them?

Huginn - with these quirks it would have good dps but need an uptime since the alpha would be still low. We all know that uptime in this meta is a luxury. Plus: the Huginn got larger during re-scaling and is therefore easier to hit

Oxide - basically like Huginn but has the Jenner CT on top of it

Grid Iron - the energy hardpoints are basically where the mech's balls are and one energy in the head. Do I need to say more?

Dragon N - I have hardly played it at that time, so I cannot comment on it

(I am sure I missed some mechs on the list - maybe someone wants to complete it?)

In their current state they range from trash to meh. Ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a Huginn - let alone a SRM4 Huginn or Grid Iron?

This would save those mechs and hopefully would bring them back while adding some unique elements at the same time.


Apart from that: Similar mechs should get also such kind of hyper-quirks to make them viable again and give the game unique mechs. Take for example Trebuchet J and K. These are rarer than rainbow colored unicorns and basically dead mechs.

What's your opinion?

Edited by Weeny Machine, 12 April 2022 - 12:08 PM.

[Meep Meep]

There are plenty of mechs with a large specific bonus to a weapon(s) after the last few cauldron quirk passes. Hell there are lots of mechs with multiple large quirk bonus now. I guess this is more a complaint about those specific mechs than in general?

[pbiggz]

I am 100% in favour of heavy quirks on niche/underused chassis. In most cases those quirks are benefiting an already un-optimal mech.

For example the Dragon 1N with the Dakka Arm was a blast to play, but you can't argue it was overpowered, it was a dragon (a fat medium mech) and all its firepower lived in the same gorilla arm.


My suggestion to add to the pool is the Summoner Prime. With its SO8, it has 3 hardpoints, 1 of each type. There is no earthly way to make it good, and no reason to fear it being broken. My thought is that the double PPC boobie summoner is already pretty much a meta mech. If 2 PPCs is enough throughput to carry the summoner, then doubling the recycle rate on the summoner prime, but only if you have its SO8, should do the same, right?

I feel like that would be fun.

[Weeny Machine]

Meep Meep, on 12 April 2022 - 12:09 PM, said:

There are plenty of mechs with a large specific bonus to a weapon(s) after the last few cauldron quirk passes. Hell there are lots of mechs with multiple large quirk bonus now. I guess this is more a complaint about those specific mechs than in general?

1. Have you played those? Because I think you wouldn't say that, if you had played those in their state at that time
2. It is about getting dead mechs up and viable again
3. Your negativity is really toxic

[Meep Meep]

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:22 PM, said:

1. Have you played those? Because I think you wouldn't say that, if you had played those in their state at that time
2. It is about getting dead mechs up and viable again
3. Your negativity is really toxic

Huh? I haven't played those mechs which is why I asked if you meant them specifically or all mechs in general? I'm all about making unviable mechs playable or at least meme worthy?

[Weeny Machine]

Meep Meep, on 12 April 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

Huh? I haven't played those mechs which is why I asked if you meant them specifically or all mechs in general? I'm all about making unviable mechs playable or at least meme worthy?

Sorry, than I got it really wrong.

The Huginn for example was a kind of dakka mech...which shot SRM4 instead of ACs and quite nimble. The drawback - even at that time was that it needed uptime on a target. It was a blast to play because it was a nice knife-fighter. No mech has played that way since then.

Oxide a bit similar bit slower fire rate and higher alpha.

The Grid Iron was nice as well but it needed in a way uptime as well. Since the single Gauss had no high alpha but provided rather stead dps. Also, it was a unique gameplay imo.

As I said before...Dragon N was not my thing, I hardly played it because I often lost the arm hehe

[martian]

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

For the oldtimers among you: can you remember the hyper-quirked mechs with certain hallmarks?
...

Yes, I can remember those 'Mechs.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

In their current state they range from trash to meh. Ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a Huginn - let alone a SRM4 Huginn or Grid Iron?

As for "Huginn", I saw it in the game a week ago.

Check this screen capture:



As for "Grid Iron", I take it when I feel like it - just from time to time.

I still have fun in this 'Mech. Check this thread, please: When Will Pgi Learn To Skill Pilots Properly ?

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

This would save those mechs and hopefully would bring them back while adding some unique elements at the same time.

In my opinion those 'Mechs were not fun to play against. I remember how I gutted Clan Assault in a few seconds, using that ridiculously quirked TDR-5SS Thunderbolt. Do you think that the enemy player had fun?

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

Apart from that: Similar mechs should get also such kind of hyper-quirks to make them viable again and give the game unique mechs. Take for example Trebuchet J and K. These are rarer than rainbow colored unicorns and basically dead mechs.

I met TBT-7K Trebuchet - that model with chest-placed ballistic hardpoint in the game twenty minutes ago.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

What's your opinion?

I would say "No" to those over-quirked 'Mechs.

Note that for example "Grid Iron" has 30% Gauss Rifle cooldown (generic ballistic quirk + GR specific quirk) and many other useful quirks (energy and missile quirks, armor and structure quirks).

[pbiggz]

martian, on 12 April 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

In my opinion those 'Mechs were not fun to play against. I remember how I gutted Clan Assault in a few seconds, using that ridiculously quirked TDR-5SS Thunderbolt. Do you think that the enemy player had fun?

I would say "No" to those over-quirked 'Mechs.

You've chosen a notable outlier in that old meta. The Dragon 1N with the Dakka Arm was fun, but not a competitive mech. The Thunderbolts were across the board some of the most powerful mechs in the game. The ERPPC, LPL, and MPL thunderbolts were each kings in their roles. When they killed the gigaquirks, they did it because of the thunderbolts, so the 1N and the old grid iron and the oxide and all the other entertaining jank that lived in that era died for the thunderbolt's sins.

I hardly think that's fair, or an honest reason to oppose this suggestion. You can't rightly pick the *most inappropriately strong gigaquirked mechs in the game* and say they were all like that. They were not.

Edited by pbiggz, 12 April 2022 - 12:58 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I am not in favor of hyper-quirks. They often pigeon-hole a mech into specific weapons or roles. Some need strong quirks, yes, but they should be more generalized. We've also seen other kinds of quirks added that we didn't have back then like HSL quirks. I'm still in favor of diversifying variants, but for similar variants you could give one a range boost and another a cooldown boost or something along those lines.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 12 April 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

Yes, I can remember those 'Mechs.



As for "Huginn", I saw it in the game a week ago.

Check this screen capture:



As for "Grid Iron", I take it when I feel like it - just from time to time.

I still have fun in this 'Mech. Check this thread, please: When Will Pgi Learn To Skill Pilots Properly ?





In my opinion those 'Mechs were not fun to play against. I remember how I gutted Clan Assault in a few seconds, using that ridiculously quirked TDR-5SS Thunderbolt. Do you think that the enemy player had fun?



I met TBT-7K Trebuchet - that model with chest-placed ballistic hardpoint in the game twenty minutes ago.



I would say "No" to those over-quirked 'Mechs.

Note that for example "Grid Iron" has 30% Gauss Rifle cooldown (generic ballistic quirk + GR specific quirk) and many other useful quirks (energy and missile quirks, armor and structure quirks).

I cannot remember the Thunderbolt 5SS anymore, so I cannot comment.

The Treb-7K has 2E and 2B in the torsos

As for the GI it had baseline about 30% if I am not mistaken.


Sure, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I fear we end up at one point - if we haven't already where we have too many models which basically do the same and nothing special anymore. That hyper-quirks don't need to be bad show the Spiders imo

TheCaptainJZ, on 12 April 2022 - 01:01 PM, said:

I am not in favor of hyper-quirks. They often pigeon-hole a mech into specific weapons or roles. Some need strong quirks, yes, but they should be more generalized. We've also seen other kinds of quirks added that we didn't have back then like HSL quirks. I'm still in favor of diversifying variants, but for similar variants you could give one a range boost and another a cooldown boost or something along those lines.

Mechs like the Huginn and Grid Iron have not much variety per se. In case of the GI the Gauss is actually its hallmark lorewise. Just saying

I would even argue that the generalization killed those mechs as well. A good example for that is the Huginn. I mean, you cannot give it a 40% missile quirk. No one would think it balanced to have a light with an MRM40 and this kind of quirk.

Of course, you could keep the current general missile quirk and slap the SRM4 on top of it. This would make suddenly the SRM4 build viable again

Edited by Weeny Machine, 12 April 2022 - 01:15 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

The hero mechs got basically no love in the cauldron sweep...
Which is weird, you'd think pgi would want to promote them. $$$

[martian]

pbiggz, on 12 April 2022 - 12:56 PM, said:

You've chosen a notable outlier in that old meta. The Dragon 1N with the Dakka Arm was fun, but not a competitive mech. The Thunderbolts were across the board some of the most powerful mechs in the game. The ERPPC, LPL, and MPL thunderbolts were each kings in their roles. When they killed the gigaquirks, they did it because of the thunderbolts, so the 1N and the old grid iron and the oxide and all the other entertaining jank that lived in that era died for the thunderbolt's sins.

I did exactly what the OP asked:

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

(I am sure I missed some mechs on the list - maybe someone wants to complete it?)

... so I added just one overly-quirked 'Mech.

pbiggz, on 12 April 2022 - 12:56 PM, said:

I hardly think that's fair, or an honest reason to oppose this suggestion.

It is absolutely fair to mention an overly-quirked 'Mech in the thread that deals specifically with overly-quirked 'Mechs.

pbiggz, on 12 April 2022 - 12:56 PM, said:

You can't rightly pick the *most inappropriately strong gigaquirked mechs in the game* and say they were all like that. They were not.

I can pick a well-known overly-quirked 'Mech and post it here since this thread is the best thread for it.

And by the way, I have not said that "they were all like that".

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 12 April 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

It is absolutely fair to mention an overly-quirked 'Mech in the thread that deals specifically with overly-quirked 'Mechs.

I agree. I had completely forgotten that Thunders possessed at one point hyper-quirks as well. But your example shows that these quirks should be re-installed only if the mech underperforms.

[martian]

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

I cannot remember the Thunderbolt 5SS anymore, so I cannot comment.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:18 PM, said:

I agree. I had completely forgotten that Thunders possessed at one point hyper-quirks as well. But your example shows that these quirks should be re-installed only if the mech underperforms.

There were three Thunderbolt models that were very powerful thanks some ridiculous quirks - I mean, for that era. It was probably before you joined MWO. I am too lazy to look for exact details, so ...

Those Thunderbolt models were:

• TDR-5SS - boating MPLs, this thing had something like 50% MPL cooldown and 50% MPL heat reduction. Essentially, you fired 7 MPLs doing 42 accurate and sustainable damage less than every two seconds or so.
  
• TDR-9S - boating Inner Sphere ER PPC, this thing had massive (cooldown?) and heat reduction quirks, allowing you to fire 3 ER PPC simultaneously for 30 damage as fast as they recycled with negligible heat buildup. Sometimes, it was fun to fire them in chain and dish out 10-point hits on few hundred metres every second or so. I won the standard model TDR-9S Thunderbolt in some challenge.
  
• TDR-9SE - ditto as -9S, but quirked for IS Large Pulse lasers AND equipped with Jump Jets. Very effective 'Mech. I won the Champion model TDR-9SE(C) in some challenge too.

I think that the standard model TDR-5S was quirked for standard Large Lasers, but it was less common.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

The Treb-7K has 2E and 2B in the torsos

As I said, I met it in the game a while ago. It fired PPC and ... dunno ... AC-10 or something.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

As for the GI it had baseline about 30% if I am not mistaken.

I am not sure, but I think that "Grid Iron" used to have maybe even 50% GR cooldown quirk in the beginning.

I won it in some challenge too.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

Sure, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I fear we end up at one point - if we haven't already where we have too many models which basically do the same and nothing special anymore. That hyper-quirks don't need to be bad show the Spiders imo

The problem of MWO are not 'Mechs and variants. The problem is that no matter what 'Mech variant you are sitting in, you will run to the same rock as thousand times before. That is the problem.

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

Mechs like the Huginn and Grid Iron have not much variety per se. In case of the GI the Gauss is actually its hallmark lorewise. Just saying

I would even argue that the generalization killed those mechs as well. A good example for that is the Huginn. I mean, you cannot give it a 40% missile quirk. No one would think it balanced to have a light with an MRM40 and this kind of quirk.

Of course, you could keep the current general missile quirk and slap the SRM4 on top of it. This would make suddenly the SRM4 build viable again

People complained about the lack of at least one energy hardpoint on the "Huginn", but PGI never acted upon it.

By the way, years ago PGI hinted about another possible Raven Hero 'Mech - "Muninn". Unfortunately, nothing has ever come from it.

[w0qj]

+10000000000000

1. Hero mechs need more loving attention from MWO/Cauldron quirk sweep!

2. MWO, please give us a good reason to buy Clan Wave 1/2/3, and not its Hero counterpart Center Torso!!

All xx-Prime(I) [also xx-Prime standard variants] need sweet quirk in CT, to differentiate it from its Hero counterpart.
This may help rejuvenate sales for the mega mech packs:
Clan Wave 1
Clan Wave 2
Clan Wave 3

Suggestions for xx-Prime(I) Center Torso:
-Heat Dissipation (like what NTG-Prime(S), TBR-Prime(I) has now)
+Velocity (like what BAS-E(S) has now)
==> Please *do*not* add +Range quirk to CT; it is abysmal for premium (I) or (S) mech CT !

3. New Skill Tree skills, and some of these new skills into xx-Prime(I) CT:
Cancel below twenty (20) filler skill nodes, and add in unique new skills:
(UAC jam chance reduction
ie:
5x Shock Absorbance (Survival tree) ==> New unique skill(s) please!
7x Hard Brake (Mobility) ==> New unique skill(s) please!
5x Quick Ignition (Operations) ==> New unique skill(s) please!
3x Speed Retention (Operations) ==> New unique skill(s) please!

New unique skill suggestions?
~UAC jam chance reduction
~Overload attack (+10% attack damage, +5% Heat Gen, double Overheat Damage). Nova NVA loves this! Also gives Flamer weapons on Lights a much more strategic role in enemy suppression.
~etc. etc.

feeWAIVER, on 12 April 2022 - 01:08 PM, said:

The hero mechs got basically no love in the cauldron sweep...
Which is weird, you'd think pgi would want to promote them. $$$

pbiggz, on 12 April 2022 - 12:13 PM, said:

I am 100% in favour of heavy quirks on niche/underused chassis. In most cases those quirks are benefiting an already un-optimal mech.

For example ...
...Summoner Prime. With its SO8, it has 3 hardpoints, 1 of each type. There is no earthly way to make it good, and no reason to fear it being broken. My thought is that the double PPC boobie summoner is already pretty much a meta mech. If 2 PPCs is enough throughput to carry the summoner, then doubling the recycle rate on the summoner prime, but only if you have its SO8, should do the same, right?

I feel like that would be fun.

Edited by w0qj, 12 April 2022 - 07:32 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Well heck, there was a time long ago when the Cataphract and Victor heroes were the ultimate powers in the universe. But that was a LOOOOONG time ago.

Now we have NEW hyper quirked mechs, such as Centurions which have better armor than many heavies and 25 to 40 percent cooldown bonuses on their weapons.

[Curccu]

martian, on 12 April 2022 - 01:44 PM, said:

There were three Thunderbolt models that were very powerful thanks some ridiculous quirks - I mean, for that era. It was probably before you joined MWO. I am too lazy to look for exact details, so ...

Those Thunderbolt models were:

• TDR-5SS - boating MPLs, this thing had something like 50% MPL cooldown and 50% MPL heat reduction. Essentially, you fired 7 MPLs doing 42 accurate and sustainable damage less than every two seconds or so.
  
• TDR-9S - boating Inner Sphere ER PPC, this thing had massive (cooldown?) and heat reduction quirks, allowing you to fire 3 ER PPC simultaneously for 30 damage as fast as they recycled with negligible heat buildup. Sometimes, it was fun to fire them in chain and dish out 10-point hits on few hundred metres every second or so. I won the standard model TDR-9S Thunderbolt in some challenge.
  
• TDR-9SE - ditto as -9S, but quirked for IS Large Pulse lasers AND equipped with Jump Jets. Very effective 'Mech. I won the Champion model TDR-9SE(C) in some challenge too.

5SS was extremely potent with 3LPL and rest MPLs build, XL build for sure but nice mech. It was powerful but so were clan mechs.
9S got nerfed back very fast when it was ERPPC hyperquirked, it was literally OP in CW.
9SE was good but not OP cause its alpha was just 3xLPL.

martian, on 12 April 2022 - 01:44 PM, said:

I am not sure, but I think that "Grid Iron" used to have maybe even 50% GR cooldown quirk in the beginning.

Yep 50% and with all my heart I can se it was not even close to OP.

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 April 2022 - 07:14 PM, said:

Well heck, there was a time long ago when the Cataphract and Victor heroes were the ultimate powers in the universe. But that was a LOOOOONG time ago.

Haven't seen Ilya or Dragon slayer in ages....

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 April 2022 - 07:14 PM, said:

Now we have NEW hyper quirked mechs, such as Centurions which have better armor than many heavies and 25 to 40 percent cooldown bonuses on their weapons.

And yet people take heavies and assaults over those almost always.


Wolverines had also nice hyperquirks back in the day, pretty super rare mechs to see nowdays also.

[cazeral]

Weeny Machine, on 12 April 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

For the oldtimers among you: can you remember the hyper-quirked mechs with certain hallmarks? Some examples:

Huginn (Raven-H) - 30% CD on SRM4s (but I think no MG quirks)
Oxide (Jenner-O) - 20%ish CD on SRM4s
Grid Iron (Hunchback) - 30% CD on Gauss
Dragon N - I am not sure but I think AC quirk but I don't know anymore

Why not give them back these quirks? Before you cry out take into consideration the power creep which has taken place since these mechs were nerfed, these mechs wouldn't be op anymore.

What would balance them?

Huginn - with these quirks it would have good dps but need an uptime since the alpha would be still low. We all know that uptime in this meta is a luxury. Plus: the Huginn got larger during re-scaling and is therefore easier to hit

Oxide - basically like Huginn but has the Jenner CT on top of it

Grid Iron - the energy hardpoints are basically where the mech's balls are and one energy in the head. Do I need to say more?

Dragon N - I have hardly played it at that time, so I cannot comment on it

(I am sure I missed some mechs on the list - maybe someone wants to complete it?)

In their current state they range from trash to meh. Ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a Huginn - let alone a SRM4 Huginn or Grid Iron?

This would save those mechs and hopefully would bring them back while adding some unique elements at the same time.


Apart from that: Similar mechs should get also such kind of hyper-quirks to make them viable again and give the game unique mechs. Take for example Trebuchet J and K. These are rarer than rainbow colored unicorns and basically dead mechs.

What's your opinion?

Love this train of thought. These were some of the iconic mechs that sometimes behaved like a glass cannon, but occasionally shone in the right situation. I bought the Grid Iron purely for that long range advantage on a chassis that everyone knows how to neuter with utmost prejudice and the O-So-Luvin Raven can still take people by surprise.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 April 2022 - 07:14 PM, said:

Well heck, there was a time long ago when the Cataphract and Victor heroes were the ultimate powers in the universe. But that was a LOOOOONG time ago.

"Ilya Muromets" and "Dragon Slayer" were not so good because of quirks. They were so good because they offered something unique:

• "Ilya Muromets" was so much better because it had more ballistic hardpoints than CTF-1X, -2X, and -3D, and it had higher engine cap than CTF-4X. CTF-3D was good for jump-sniping. Because of that stupid "Rule of three", people had to buy use a third Cataphract - often CTF-4X - to skill up "Ilya Muromets".
  
• "Dragon Slayer" was good because of the hardpoints placement.

Curccu, on 12 April 2022 - 10:10 PM, said:

5SS was extremely potent with 3LPL and rest MPLs build, XL build for sure but nice mech. It was powerful but so were clan mechs.
9S got nerfed back very fast when it was ERPPC hyperquirked, it was literally OP in CW.
9SE was good but not OP cause its alpha was just 3xLPL.

TDR-9SE Thunderbolt was pretty good when a player was less interested in ranged combat. Its jump jets gave TDR-9SE very good agility and those LPL hit as hard as ER PPCs, but with the shorter cooldown and less heat.

Curccu, on 12 April 2022 - 10:10 PM, said:

Yep 50% and with all my heart I can se it was not even close to OP.

Still, it was a very effective 'Mech when the majority of 'Mechs in the field were IS ones. "Grid Iron" dished out a lot of damage - 15-point pinpoint hits on 800 metres every two seconds.

Curccu, on 12 April 2022 - 10:10 PM, said:

Wolverines had also nice hyperquirks back in the day, pretty super rare mechs to see nowdays also.

I run "Quarantine" that I won in the challenge a year ago.

I do not care about the current meta - I run 'Mechs that I have fun with.

[Curccu]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 03:36 AM, said:

Still, it was a very effective 'Mech when the majority of 'Mechs in the field were IS ones. "Grid Iron" dished out a lot of damage - 15-point pinpoint hits on 800 metres every two seconds.

Effective yes but no more effective than blackjack-1( or dc) with 2xAC2 which actually out DPSs even old hyperquirked GI

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 03:36 AM, said:

I run "Quarantine" that I won in the challenge a year ago.
I do not care about the current meta - I run 'Mechs that I have fun with.

I would say a Year ago is rare mech to see nowdays.

yes same, I play what I like to play even if it's stupid sometimes or else I wouldn't run MRM40 Huginn and other stuff like that.