72 replies to this topic

[martian]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 10:49 AM, said:

But at least it breaks the 15 minutes of nothing at all happening. Would you rather not play the game for 15 minutes to make it a draw?

Your tactics of suicidal lone charging the enemy team would put your own team in disadvantage. You would get killed and achieve nothing significant. Instead of possible draw you would push your own team towards possible defeat, as I described above.

You would not be "sowing Chaos" with your charge as you think - you would just give enemy snipers a nice opportunity to farm Match Score on you.

[Zeddicuus]

But it breaks the stalemate if the players on my side start doing something instead of just sitting and waiting 15 minutes.

I'd much prefer to have something happen, even if it leads to my mech blowing up, over sitting in one spot for 15 minutes and reading my book while the game timer ticks out.

I suppose instead I could just Quit Match and go join another one with a different mech. At least that way the odds of my actually playing the game would increase. Would that be preferable?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 10:49 AM, said:

But at least it breaks the 15 minutes of nothing at all happening. Would you rather not play the game for 15 minutes to make it a draw?

I've been playing this game for 10 years... I have literally seen this happen like ONCE. And it wasn't recent. (It was old Terra Therma, the other team refused to come into the caldera to get us.) That to me says its not as big a deal as is being discussed here.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 13 April 2022 - 11:13 AM.

[Zeddicuus]

That's good to know, Scrapiron Prime. Personally it would drive me up the wall if something like this scenario became the norm in MWO.

I'm all for the occasional, albeit minor, sniper standoff. But to have all members on both teams do it? Not exactly my cup of tea.

Edited by Zeddicuus, 13 April 2022 - 11:17 AM.

[martian]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 11:11 AM, said:

But it breaks the stalemate if the players on my side start doing something instead of just sitting and waiting 15 minutes.

I'd much prefer to have something happen, even if it leads to my mech blowing up, over sitting in one spot for 15 minutes and reading my book while the game timer ticks out.

I suppose instead I could just Quit Match and go join another one with a different mech. At least that way the odds of my actually playing the game would increase. Would that be preferable?

What is so good on causing your team's defeat?

Actually, sometimes this situation happens when playing Assault or Skirmish on the new Frozen City map.

Sometimes there is such standoff with the both teams camping on their respective sides of the valley. I have seen how some impatient player gets bored and alone charges the entrenched enemy team (sometimes, a pair of players).

The result? They get killed and achieve absolutely nothing. A few minutes later, their team wishing to avoid defeat must attack across the open ground the numerically superior enemy team that camps in better positions.

Sometimes, one must be patient for the good of his team.

[Escef]

The meta has been sniper dominated for years now. Whenever there's a shake-up (e.g., mass weapon re-balances or introduction of new weapons) the game enters a transitional phase where people play anything and everything trying to see what works. And then it settles back into sniping. And that's because being a small target on the screen makes you harder to hit, which is the most reliable defense big mechs have. Small mechs? If they aren't sniping as well they put themselves in a position where 1 or 2 alphas from a bigger mech will end them, and they'll often have 3 to 5 big mechs shooting at them; that's not what you call favorable odds.

Most weapons in Battletech are useless outside of 6 or 7 hundred meters. MWO has most energy and ballistic weapons able to do damage out to twice their range in table top (3 times in the case of most LBX cannons). This also multiplies the gap between short/mid range weapons (like the standard ML) and the sniper weapons (ERLLs, ERPPCs, standard/light Gauss, UAC/LBX/AC 2 and 5). But if you force people to engage at ranges of 6 or 7 hundred meters it becomes much, much easier for a quick push to invalidate sniper builds.

Ideally, we want a game where snipers AND brawlers are viable. That's where maps come in, but some maps are better for this than others. Solaris City, for example, is a good map for brawlers/strikers/skirmishers, because cover is often within SRM range of a target. Solaris City allows people in short range focused mechs to bring the firepower of their mechs to bear more reliably, and that can be a LOT of firepower. People talk about the huge alphas of assault mechs; 70, 80, 90... A Mad Dog, at 60 tons, loaded up with SRMs and 4-8 medium and/or small (or even micro) lasers can break 100. Sure, it's damage that is more likely to spread out given that it's SRM based, but it's still a huge amount of firepower and it moves at over 80 kph.

Conversely, on the topic of maps, we have a map concept that many players were clamoring after for ages: rolling hills. And we got that map. It was even a cold map, which made heat management easier... And people hated that map: the original Polar Highlands. The main reason why people hated the map, of course, was because it exacerbated the stand stills of the sniper meta, and it had little to no cover that was relevant to LRMs. (Seriously, all it took was one spotter to use terrain well and start NARCing and Tagging, maybe pop a UAV, and the sky would suddenly be alive with missiles. And the most reliable hard-counter to LRMs, steep cover that's at least as tall as your mech, was totally absent. People would lose their minds.)

So, that sniper meta? As I see it, the best way to reign in the sniper dominance is to cut the maximum range of energy and ballistic weapons. Maybe to 1.5x for most, 2x for Gauss and LBX? This will shorten engagement ranges, make damage at extreme range much more manageable, and perhaps give the short range specialists a fighting chance to close without having half their armor slagged off.

I'm not going to say this will fix everything, but as I see it this is at least worth trying out in a test server.

[martian]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 11:16 AM, said:

That's good to know, Scrapiron Prime. Personally it would drive me up the wall if something like this scenario became the norm in MWO.

I'm all for the occasional, albeit minor, sniper standoff. But to have all members on both teams do it? Not exactly my cup of tea.

There are such longer or shorter standoffs in MWO, but only rarely they last up to the last second of the game. I would say that they happen mostly on barren maps such as Alpine Peaks or Grim Plexus.

[Vorpal Puppy]

This would be much more common if it weren't for the fact that with 24 players, at least one of them usually decides not to put up with 15 minutes of poke and hide, and would rather just die and get on to the next game.

In the name of making sniping a viable tactic, it has been made too powerful on some maps. If we are not going to dial back the sniping weapons, we have to re-visit certain maps and add a lot of cover to approaches to strong sniper positions.

[LordNothing]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 08:38 AM, said:

I have never seen a game go quite like that. I think I would have ended up rushing in after about 5-7 minutes just to get something happening. Sometimes all it takes is 1 idiot to create complete chaos.

im not sure 'idiot' is the word i would use. you play a game because you are bored, then the game presents you with more boredom. an idiot is a person who chooses to remain bored, which is contrary to their intention going in. i could do a suicide charge at an overheated sniper and tilt the balance. i become the fulcrum that can tilt the match one way or the other. thats would at least be exciting, failure or not. i do not need to win to have a good game.

that said had i brought a sniper loadout id have probibly joined the team in being boring. its not a playstyle i enjoy but every now and again i have a mech i need to level that sucks at every other job.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 April 2022 - 12:42 PM.

[martian]

Vorpal Puppy, on 13 April 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

This would be much more common if it weren't for the fact that with 24 players, at least one of them usually decides not to put up with 15 minutes of poke and hide, and would rather just die and get on to the next game.

In the name of making sniping a viable tactic, it has been made too powerful on some maps. If we are not going to dial back the sniping weapons, we have to re-visit certain maps and add a lot of cover to approaches to strong sniper positions.

Is it easier to change weapons stats in some text file, or actually change the maps, terrain, decorations, etc.?

[Vorpal Puppy]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 12:43 PM, said:

Is it easier to change weapons stats in some text file, or actually change the maps, terrain, decorations, etc.?

I would much rather dial back the weapons, but the Cauldron seems intent on "making sniping viable" aka "bringing the faction play game (that few wanted to play) to quick play". I can at least respect the enemy that can hit me from 1000 meters with gauss or peeps. The blue laser point-n-click spam is just too much on poor cover maps.

Edited by Vorpal Puppy, 13 April 2022 - 01:10 PM.

[martian]

Vorpal Puppy, on 13 April 2022 - 01:09 PM, said:

I would much rather dial back the weapons, but the Cauldron seems intent on "making sniping viable" aka "bringing the faction play game (that few wanted to play) to quick play". I can at least respect the enemy that can hit me from 1000 meters with gauss or peeps. The blue laser point-n-click spam is just too much on poor cover maps.

I think that this is not going to change any time soon.

[Vorpal Puppy]

martian, on 13 April 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

I think that this is not going to change any time soon.

I'm afraid you're right. I'd rather be in a brawler Atlas on the old Polar Highlands facing a team of LRM boats than be on the new Emerald Vale facing a team of blue flashlight Direwolves.

[Zeddicuus]

LordNothing, on 13 April 2022 - 12:38 PM, said:

im not sure 'idiot' is the word i would use. you play a game because you are bored, then the game presents you with more boredom. an idiot is a person who chooses to remain bored, which is contrary to their intention going in. i could do a suicide charge at an overheated sniper and tilt the balance. i become the fulcrum that can tilt the match one way or the other. thats would at least be exciting, failure or not. i do not need to win to have a good game.

that said had i brought a sniper loadout id have probibly joined the team in being boring. its not a playstyle i enjoy but every now and again i have a mech i need to level that sucks at every other job.

This I can back up entirely! I'm here to play the game, not sit my big robot behind a building and watch a timer tick to 0. I'd rather run around and try to accomplish something, even on my own, rather than not do anything at all. The not doing anything part is not fun. What's the worst that happens if I get blown up in this situation? If I didn't deal any damage, I can just Quit Match and start another with a different mech. At least I tried to do something instead of sitting and hoping something changes by someone else's will.

[TheCaptainJZ]

The surprising thing is that you had 24 players that were actually patient. That is quite rare. Also, both teams were playing the exact same tactic. Another rarity.

[Weeny Machine]

Zeddicuus, on 13 April 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

but theat would have given their positions away, surely your team started firing back?

sure. But 4 LL on this range isn't that much. That's why no one really died. And to be honest, I was tempted to play more reckless but I am sure considering the hail of PPC and laser which came into my general direction when I showed my head that I wouldn't have survived it.
In the end I didn't want to be the one who could be blamed we lost. And I suppose that was what the others held in check as well

Edited by Weeny Machine, 13 April 2022 - 01:56 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

ScrapIron Prime, on 13 April 2022 - 11:12 AM, said:

I've been playing this game for 10 years... I have literally seen this happen like ONCE. And it wasn't recent. (It was old Terra Therma, the other team refused to come into the caldera to get us.) That to me says its not as big a deal as is being discussed here.

You are right, it is definitely an outlier but the tendecies are more or less there that sniping is not just "viable" now as some people claim

[Heavy Money]

- Endless cases of fools Leeroying in and losing the match for their teams

"This is fine."

- One case of people resisting the urge to Leeroy and realizing they are in a standoff

"OMG SNIPER META IS RUINING THE GAME!"

[Weeny Machine]

Heavy Money, on 13 April 2022 - 01:56 PM, said:

"OMG SNIPER META IS RUINING THE GAME!"

Ok, since you need caps lock to make your statement clear you can surly show us where someone said this. Else this is just a pathetic attempt to antagonize people and then I would have to ask you to **** off

[Escef]

Heavy Money, on 13 April 2022 - 01:56 PM, said:

- Endless cases of fools Leeroying in and losing the match for their teams

"This is fine."

- One case of people resisting the urge to Leeroy and realizing they are in a standoff

"OMG SNIPER META IS RUINING THE GAME!"

Sniper meta is years old. The last time a meta was this dominant it was when Streaks targeted the CT and when SRMs did more damage than intended due to missile explosion/splash damage not working right. I don't think a meta that has gone largely unchanged for years is good for the game.