158 replies to this topic

[Direwoof]

I just want teh RAC 20 lol.

[TheArisen]

A piece of equipment I'd like to explore would be the PPC capacitor. TT has it add 5 heat & 5 dmg at 1t & 1 slot.
https://www.sarna.ne...i/PPC_Capacitor

Blue Shield Particle Field Damper could be a way to further explore active protection systems in game. I'd expand it's function beyond just PPCs though.
https://www.sarna.ne...le_Field_Damper

Inferno missiles could offer an interesting choice.
https://www.sarna.ne...nferno_(Missile)

Swarm LRMs might be too chaotic.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Swarm_LRM

Heavy flamer is a bigger more powerful and heavier flamer with more range
https://www.sarna.ne...ki/Heavy_Flamer

We could also look at Endo Composite Structure, basically Light FF but internal.
https://www.sarna.ne.../Endo-Composite

Edited by TheArisen, 25 April 2022 - 05:08 PM.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 25 April 2022 - 03:02 AM, said:

I think the next round of NuTech would probably not need quite as many retrofits since most of the truly drastic geo changes (like accounting for 40+ missile tubes on every IS missile hardpoint) got handled the first time around.

And it would depend on how picky we are with the details, for example we could probably live with LACs just using the same barrel as regular ACs (lore-wise I think they're supposed to be shorter, helping to explain the weight and slot difference). Magshots, AP Gauss, and HAGs can just take the regular Gauss triangular prism and resize it. Mech Mortars are a weird one...I guess just make them have SRM-sized missile holes but with a size-8 version added for the MM8. All the different lasers just use the generic laser nub (IDK about Binary Laser though).

For Binary lasers could use the same laser nub since it's two large laser *cores* combined to fire at the same time. Could give Binary lasers & Bombast lasers a diff color to help differentiate them. Maybe the Bombast uses the pulse laser but bigger and unique color

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 25 April 2022 - 05:13 PM, said:

For Binary lasers could use the same laser nub since it's two large laser *cores* combined to fire at the same time. Could give Binary lasers & Bombast lasers a diff color to help differentiate them. Maybe the Bombast uses the pulse laser but bigger and unique color

Blazers are usually depicted with two barrels like this:



But I'd certainly accept the existing generic nub if it meant faster NuTech™.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 25 April 2022 - 05:51 PM, said:

Blazers are usually depicted with two barrels like this:



But I'd certainly accept the existing generic nub if it meant faster NuTech™.

Yeah that's true. I guess it depends on how you interpret the lore or if you want to go with the way it's been depicted. The lore write up sounds to me like it's using two LL cores to create a single XL laser rather than be two separate barrels. Like, you're pushing the output of two LL cores through a single emitter/barrel which is why it's not the same as two LLs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Light ACs don't really fulfil any unique role, they end up being just flat-out replacements for standard AC2/5s. HVACs suffer similarly. The game doesn't need more redundancy (I mean we have over 600+ unique variants in the game), it needs unique behaving weapons that also happen to fulfill different roles. The Clan small/micro laser competition is probably a perfect example of this.

Mortars could be interesting depending on how they are implemented. If they function similar to short range grenade launchers, that fills a niche that would be interesting. Plasma Rifles are interesting but heat mechanics like flamers just feel.....meh in this game. X-Pulse and BLasers aren't really interesting unless they fit a certain tonnage/range profile to stack around ghost heat or something like that.

TBH, I would be more interested in them just reworking pulse lasers to be have a more interesting mechanic than what they are. That and missiles desperately need a complete rework.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2022 - 06:43 PM.

[w0qj]

1. There are thirteen (13x) useless 'filler' Skill Nodes that MWO can create new skills (XML tweaking).
(7x Hard Brake, 5x Shock Absorbtion, 3x Speed Retention).
And one can compress the JumpJet Skill Nodes to free up even more Skill Nodes!

eg: New Overload attack skill: +10% Damage, +3% Heat, and double Overheat Damage
==>This creates strategic opportunities for Light mechs with Flamers to swoop in like the calvary!

eg: 5x Shock Absorbance skill nodes ==> change to +2% Flanking Damage (hit enemy from side/behind)

eg: 7x Hard Brake skill nodes ==> Start ECM/ECCM warefare!

2. So what other new Skills can we put into above 13x useless 'filler' Skill Nodes?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 06:33 PM, said:

...heat mechanics like flamers just feel.....meh in this game. ...

Edited by w0qj, 25 April 2022 - 06:53 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 06:33 PM, said:

Light ACs don't really fulfil any unique role, they end up being just flat-out replacements for standard AC2/5s. HVACs suffer similarly. The game doesn't need more redundancy (I mean we have over 600+ unique variants in the game), it needs unique behaving weapons that also happen to fulfill different roles.

Honestly the LB2X and LB5X as well to be TBF. Even the balance approach for them is basically just making them even more pinpoint by smaller spread -- what does that tell you? It encroaches the weapon into being basically standard ACs, so what's even the point?

I think the HVAC and LBXs should have higher damage but lower DPS, to be mechanically distinct from standard ACs. The LACs could stand being burst-fired like Clan ACs instead -- yeah it's worse, but at least you can put them where they normally would be hard to put.

You know why 600+ variants is a problem? Because in many cases, some variants can do what the other variants does. Quirk differences? Unless that HSL, it's not really mechanically relevant, redundancy will happen. This open mechlab seemed to me a detriment to variety, creativity works best when we're working around limitations. If the hardpoint was just implemented like MW4's sized hardpoints.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 06:33 PM, said:

X-Pulse and BLasers aren't really interesting unless they fit a certain tonnage/range profile to stack around ghost heat or something like that. TBH, I would be more interested in them just reworking pulse lasers to be have a more interesting mechanic than what they are.

Maybe XPulse can be low-damage PPFLD lasers with gauss charge, maybe.

But lets be realistic, it's a laser, it's just going to be part of another laser vomit point-and-click adventure, with only varying degrees of efficiency. It works well for the purposes of the people applying it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 06:33 PM, said:

That and missiles desperately need a complete rework.

I'm also interested with stream-fired SRMs and Streaks, a bit better mechanically than MW5, as well as some tracking like MercTech. But beside that, I don't think there's a lot we can do to missiles, unless the guys calling the balance shots would be more for auto-aim. Till then, -- it'll just be a slow-*** short-ranged shotgun for SRMs, and bad rep for streaks and LRMs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2022 - 07:33 PM, said:

Honestly the LB2X and LB5X as well to be TBF. Even the balance approach for them is basically just making them even more pinpoint by smaller spread -- what does that tell you? It encroaches the weapon into being basically standard ACs, so what's even the point?

I think the HVAC and LBXs should have higher damage but lower DPS, to be mechanically distinct from standard ACs.

Ehhh LBX2/5 had higher damage per shot in MW4 and no one bothered because they just never did enough damage per shot to justify it. IMO the problem stems from trying to stick to the 2/5/10/20 scheme, it just doesn't make sense for this kinda game. Even in TT it the damage scaling didn't make much sense other than offering a cheap long range crit fishing option.

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2022 - 07:33 PM, said:

Maybe XPulse can be low-damage PPFLD lasers with gauss charge, maybe.

But lets be realistic, it's a laser, it's just going to be part of another laser vomit point-and-click adventure, with only varying degrees of efficiency. It works well for the purposes of the people applying it.

With a gauss charge would be interesting but I think I like Yeonne's old idea that that should be PPCs, it would be nice to have a more DPS based laser weapon which is more what I'm after like the old MW4 MP3 days (LPLs did similar damage to AC5s but were hitscan PPFLD).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2022 - 08:01 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 07:53 PM, said:

Ehhh LBX2/5 had higher damage per shot in MW4 and no one bothered because they just never did enough damage per shot to justify it. IMO the problem stems from trying to stick to the 2/5/10/20 scheme, it just doesn't make sense for this kinda game. Even in TT it the damage scaling didn't make much sense other than offering a cheap long range crit fishing option.

Well, i agree, make it like 5/10/15/20 damage or something in the lines of that. Though the standard ACs could stand the 2/5/10/20 format, since it's DPS route. But the LBXs, for-sure.

Alternatively, I always wanted IS acs to be just burst-fire from the get go that allows damage spreading yet pin-point, and only the LBXs can either be the single-slug or cluster shots.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 07:53 PM, said:

With a gauss charge would be interesting but I think I like Yeonne's old idea that that should be PPCs, it would be nice to have a more DPS based laser weapon which is more what I'm after like the old MW4 MP3 days (LPLs did similar damage to AC5s but were hitscan PPFLD).

PPC Capacitor, sure.

I like the idea of DPS lasers, though I think XPL would be anti-thetical to it if it's geared with high heat. I think if you want DPS, the standard LPLs would fare better in their niche with XPLs basically just the ER Version -- or like I said, the PPFLD hitscan lasers.

I would love to test this, but I only got a custom balance so far: https://www.moddb.co...-weapon-balance

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 06:33 PM, said:

Light ACs don't really fulfil any unique role, they end up being just flat-out replacements for standard AC2/5s. HVACs suffer similarly. The game doesn't need more redundancy (I mean we have over 600+ unique variants in the game), it needs unique behaving weapons that also happen to fulfill different roles. The Clan small/micro laser competition is probably a perfect example of this.

Mortars could be interesting depending on how they are implemented. If they function similar to short range grenade launchers, that fills a niche that would be interesting. Plasma Rifles are interesting but heat mechanics like flamers just feel.....meh in this game. X-Pulse and BLasers aren't really interesting unless they fit a certain tonnage/range profile to stack around ghost heat or something like that.

TBH, I would be more interested in them just reworking pulse lasers to be have a more interesting mechanic than what they are. That and missiles desperately need a complete rework.

light acs are just going to be range crippled versions of 2s and 5s. they should mosty be used to give light mechs more ballistic options. sure you could boat them on heavier mechs but thats just going to hurt your range. i think implementing them with burst fire would make them better at shoot n scoot than peek n poke to give them a more defined role. rifle, as implemented in mw5. would do the same job. lots of damage with less tonnage, but high heat and long cycle times.

i think pulse lasers should apply damage in bursts rather than continuously throughout the burn. essentially a string of 3-5 hitscan ppflds (at 1/3-1/5 of the total damage each). xpulse would be more or less the same but with a single pulse at lower damage, and a lower cycle time so they can fire continuously effectively making it a dps laser.

[caravann]

backward fired guided missiles

oh the meme

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 25 April 2022 - 09:22 PM, said:

light acs are just going to be range crippled versions of 2s and 5s. they should mosty be used to give light mechs more ballistic options.

No light is going to consider this outside of superquirked mechs like the Urbie. They just don't suit the style of play, they don't have the burst damage and the last thing you want to do is have to stare down an assault while firing these. MW5 kinda tried to fix this with the high damage high cooldown time rifles but it still doesn't really match up with the burst damage of lasers. Maybe for a few mediums or heavies this might make sense to boat? But that is about it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2022 - 09:54 PM.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2022 - 09:51 PM, said:

No light is going to consider this outside of superquirked mechs like the Urbie. They just don't suit the style of play, they don't have the burst damage and the last thing you want to do is have to stare down an assault while firing these.

i have several lights that are just begging for some ballistic options in the 2-5 ton range. not every squirrel is going to be an ultra light mg/pulse backstabber.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 April 2022 - 09:56 PM.

[Bassault]

LordNothing, on 25 April 2022 - 09:51 AM, said:

you can say that about dual gauss.

Dual gauss doesn't make you invisible, you get hit, you look in that direction, you see who shot you. Someone else has a chance to hit him in this moment as well. It also requires actual aiming, so skill is required. Furthermore, it deals 30 dmg, but it does have no splash.

LordNothing, on 25 April 2022 - 09:22 PM, said:

light acs are just going to be range crippled versions of 2s and 5s. they should mosty be used to give light mechs more ballistic options. sure you could boat them on heavier mechs but thats just going to hurt your range. i think implementing them with burst fire would make them better at shoot n scoot than peek n poke to give them a more defined role. rifle, as implemented in mw5. would do the same job. lots of damage with less tonnage, but high heat and long cycle times.

i think pulse lasers should apply damage in bursts rather than continuously throughout the burn. essentially a string of 3-5 hitscan ppflds (at 1/3-1/5 of the total damage each). xpulse would be more or less the same but with a single pulse at lower damage, and a lower cycle time so they can fire continuously effectively making it a dps laser.

No, they will be amazing on heavier mechs, especially those with many hardpoints. Boating even more ACs will be possible in many more mechs, including the rifleman, the jagermech and even Annihilators.

Edited by I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, 25 April 2022 - 10:31 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 25 April 2022 - 09:54 PM, said:

i have several lights that are just begging for some ballistic options in the 2-5 ton range. not every squirrel is going to be an ultra light mg/pulse backstabber.

But I do think that the point here with QS is that it's the mg/pulse backstabber is the successful ones.

Yeah you can get DPS with LACs at a farther distance, but with the LAC5 at 360m, why not just pack with a lot of LMGs? Alternatively why not just pack legit MGs or HMGs and just be a leg-chomper? It's not like getting in and out of engagement from these small lights at 130 KPH is hard -- in fact that is precisely the point. Although I would agree that there should be more than just the leg-chomping backstabber for lights as an effective build.

I think lights, beyond something like the Urbie, ballistics are a lost cause, unless it's like MW5 styled rifles where it deals humongous damage but with incredibly high CD.

But for the LACs, I do think that it would shine better with mediums and mobile assault mechs, it's the goldilocks zone of being able to pack a lot of them, while not as effective as with heavier ACs for heavy mechs.

My choice for stats of LAC is these:

Damage: 2 / 5
Range: 540/360m
Velocity: 1350 / 950
Shots: 2 / 3
Interval: 0.11s
CD: 0.825 / 1.307s
Heat: 0.65 / 1.43
DPS: 2.138 / 3.274
HPS: 0.695 / 0.818

My calculation is based on spreadsheet that takes account the reduction in range with respect to dps/ton. The jump from LAC2 to LAC5 DPS is quite huge, even if it's just 1 ton, but that takes account that the LAC2 has 540m effective range, while LAC5 is just at 360m. The high DPS/Ton is chosen as a result of competing with weapons in it's range band.

This way, 3 LAC2s while comparable tons as an AC10, the AC10 will still deal 10 PPFLD damage, while the LAC2 instead fires in 2 round burst dealing spread 6 damage even if it has higher DPS. Heat/Second of AC10 would be at 1.111, while 3x LAC2 is at 2.085.

This is spreadsheet balance however, not really balanced but just a way to define how it would work.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 April 2022 - 12:03 AM.

[Curccu]

LAC5/10 could give some interesting options for fatties, like anni with 6xLAC5 or 4xLAC10 + energy weapons... with normal AC5/10s no tonnage for those, LAC10 will still probably have better range than range where LB10X spread really starts to bother effectiveness.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2022 - 11:47 PM, said:

Alternatively why not just pack legit MGs or HMGs and just be a leg-chomper?

PPFLD vs sustained DPS.

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2022 - 11:47 PM, said:

It's not like getting in and out of engagement from these small lights at 130 KPH is hard -- in fact that is precisely the point.

100% depends are you going against lost potato or someone who can shoot and maybe even ask a help from team.
I have personally found that knifefighting lights have become way more dangerous to myself late months.

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2022 - 11:47 PM, said:

Although I would agree that there should be more than just the leg-chomping backstabber for lights as an effective build.

MPL builds adr-a for example.
LPL builds inc-3 for example.
LPPC builds um-r80 for example.
ERLL builds, so many that I don't bother linking build.
+ More

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 01:13 AM, said:

PPFLD vs sustained DPS.

Dude, you're doing 5 damage a pop for 5 tons of weight at 360m + 1 ton of ammo. Might as well get two Light PPCs and tank the heat. The heat reduction of the LAC is only lend to it's DPS capability, and that's pretty bad honeslty.

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 01:13 AM, said:

100% depends are you going against lost potato or someone who can shoot and maybe even ask a help from team.
I have personally found that knifefighting lights have become way more dangerous to myself late months.

Well, if you're there to annoy them and commit. What I was talking about is simply just peeking in and out.

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 01:13 AM, said:

MPL builds adr-a for example.
LPL builds inc-3 for example.
LPPC builds um-r80 for example.
ERLL builds, so many that I don't bother linking build.
+ More

Lord Nothing and I were talking about the squirrels.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2022 - 01:30 AM, said:

Dude, you're doing 5 damage a pop for 5 tons of weight at 360m + 1 ton of ammo. Might as well get two Light PPCs and tank the heat. The heat reduction of the LAC is only lend to it's DPS capability, and that's pretty bad honeslty.

You can slap 3xLAC5 to urbie eez + enough ammo to do 900+ dmg and have close to 2xDPS and over 2x sustained dps than with LPPCs

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2022 - 01:30 AM, said:

Lord Nothing and I were talking about the squirrels.

What is squirrel if not a light mech?