158 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 02:00 AM, said:

You can slap 3xLAC5 to urbie eez + enough ammo to do 900+ dmg and have close to 2xDPS and over 2x sustained dps than with LPPCs

What you're saying is rather gratuitous at this point, Urbie can slap an AC10, AC20, UAC20, and Gauss Rifle, dude's not the issue here.

Honestly, here's a "Full"-Armor AC20 Urbie with 90 KPH and 24 shots, and 1 JJ.

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 02:00 AM, said:

What is squirrel if not a light mech?

The small ones, typically Locust, Flea, Commando comes to mind.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 April 2022 - 02:57 AM.

[caravann]

We're theorizing on what clan tech is capable
and it end up with that clan tech was made for one reason
to be pay to to win.

Besides who really wants to use autocannon on a light mech.
If there are options, those are found even better at energy category.

For that one ac20 with 24 shots you get 2 LPL who deals damage without ammo.

The advantages are not found on a light mech. You don't use ballistics for the same reason.
The ac20 has low heat to let other weapons fire. On a light mech it's the main gun.

[LordNothing]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 25 April 2022 - 10:31 PM, said:

Dual gauss doesn't make you invisible, you get hit, you look in that direction, you see who shot you. Someone else has a chance to hit him in this moment as well. It also requires actual aiming, so skill is required. Furthermore, it deals 30 dmg, but it does have no splash.



No, they will be amazing on heavier mechs, especially those with many hardpoints. Boating even more ACs will be possible in many more mechs, including the rifleman, the jagermech and even Annihilators.

guass builds are very dependant on stealth to function, not the armor, though ive ran into many invisible thannies and fafs, others gain stealth in other ways. guass boats usually dont show up on radar either because their range lets them sit outside of sensors. then its just a matter of finding a shady patch or foliage to make you hard to see. frankly if i had to choose between the dual gauss and the arrow iv, id rather face off against the guy with the arrow. especially if that missile is a big slow lumbering projectile with all the counters that make lerms the minor annoyance that they are.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 01:13 AM, said:

MPL builds adr-a for example.
LPL builds inc-3 for example.
LPPC builds um-r80 for example.
ERLL builds, so many that I don't bother linking build.
+ More

Notice the speed that those have minus the Incubus (which honestly is the standout here but is better off running ERML on the 4). They are all poor man's medium mechs because they just simply don't have the speed to play like a normal light mech (ala scouting, capping, picking off isolated mechs).

Don't get me some of them might benefit from LACs, but they are the exception not the rule.

There are two things to understand about light play:
* DPS that requires significant staring is frowned upon. MGs are the exception because you can abuse your mobility advantage the most at face hugging range which is where MGs are typically excel. You need to get a few shots in and run, mobility is your life blood and trying to face down a well aiming heavy or assault doesn't generally end well (especially if they have good crossfire). You may benefit from bad aim, but all it takes is one good shot to ruin your day so minimizing your exposure is highly beneficial.
* Shoot n scoot, hit and run, whatever you want to call it means doing a significant burst of damage and using the downtime while repositioning to cooldown. This sort of opportunistic playstyle generally is best off to stacking high upfront damage per ton weapons even if they aren't the most heat efficient so that you can do your burst of damage and be gone.

Obviously PUG queue doesn't necessarily follow this because between skill level differences and the lack of overall coordination, lights have a bit more free reign (I mean, "lights OP" has been a thing in PUG queue for almost a decade now) but there is a lot of things you can get away with in PUG queue so using that as a good gauge doesn't really make sense.

With that in mind, LACs do not fit for that playstyle. They don't do significant damage up front. As 6th mentioned the rifles in MW5 tried to actually offer a more suitable option (albeit lights would much rather trade the long cooldown for just more heat) and if you want lights to use more ballistics that is the route to go.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2022 - 07:11 PM.

[Curccu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

Notice the speed that those have minus the Incubus (which honestly is the standout here but is better off running ERML on the 4). They are all poor man's medium mechs because they just simply don't have the speed to play like a normal light mech (ala scouting, capping, picking off isolated mechs).

Don't get me some of them might benefit from LACs, but they are the exception not the rule.

There are two things to understand about light play:
* DPS that requires significant staring is frowned upon. MGs are the exception because you can abuse your mobility advantage the most at face hugging range which is where MGs are typically excel. You need to get a few shots in and run, mobility is your life blood and trying to face down a well aiming heavy or assault doesn't generally end well (especially if they have good crossfire). You may benefit from bad aim, but all it takes is one good shot to ruin your day so minimizing your exposure is highly beneficial.
* Shoot n scoot, hit and run, whatever you want to call it means doing a significant burst of damage and using the downtime while repositioning to cooldown. This sort of opportunistic playstyle generally is best off to stacking high upfront damage per ton weapons even if they aren't the most heat efficient so that you can do your burst of damage and be gone.

Obviously PUG queue doesn't necessarily follow this because between skill level differences and the lack of overall coordination, lights have a bit more free reign (I mean, "lights OP" has been a thing in PUG queue for almost a decade now) but there is a lot of things you can get away with in PUG queue so using that as a good gauge doesn't really make sense.

I'm assuming most of the posters in this thread are playing PUG only and that queue doesn't follow comp mindset at all IMO, which your post seemed to refer mostly. Most of the players in PUG simply are not good shots.

Mechs I posted were mostly slow ones but mechs listed were simply reply to "there should be more than just the leg-chomping backstabber for lights as an effective build." that there are effective light builds that are not leg chompers.
I could have added LPPC/SL firestarter for example there also

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Curccu, on 26 April 2022 - 10:27 PM, said:

I'm assuming most of the posters in this thread are playing PUG only and that queue doesn't follow comp mindset at all IMO, which your post seemed to refer mostly.

This is true, but you don't balance by the masses, there is no incentive to get better at that point if the game becomes more one dimensional as you get better. However there is value in balancing such that unfun mechanics are dealt with (less relevant to this discussion though).

That said, either ACs need to change or the function of LACs would have to be different than I think what people want because there is some overlap concerns. Either they just become better than regular AC2/5s because the range trade-off is worth it (and it most likely will be for 2s which when combined with another are essentially an AC/5 but more compact) or they compete with other ACs like the 10 (2 AC5s does the same damage at the same range for 2 tons and 3 slots less). Same concern with HVACs in that they are functionally too similar and fill too similar of roles unless we are radically changing how they work (which I'm on board with).

While I think Lights should have a better ballistic option, I don't think this is it. Honestly I would be looking more at Magshots and AP Gauss for that as that is more beneficial across the board not just wannabe medium mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2022 - 11:27 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

With that in mind, LACs do not fit for that playstyle. They don't do significant damage up front. As 6th mentioned the rifles in MW5 tried to actually offer a more suitable option (albeit lights would much rather trade the long cooldown for just more heat) and if you want lights to use more ballistics that is the route to go.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2022 - 11:25 PM, said:

That said, either ACs need to change or the function of LACs would have to be different than I think what people want because there is some overlap concerns. Either they just become better than regular AC2/5s because the range trade-off is worth it (and it most likely will be for 2s which when combined with another are essentially an AC/5 but more compact) or they compete with other ACs like the 10 (2 AC5s does the same damage at the same range for 2 tons and 3 slots less). Same concern with HVACs in that they are functionally too similar and fill too similar of roles unless we are radically changing how they work (which I'm on board with).

So like AC 5/10/15/20 with CD of 1.8/2.8/3.375/4s? I mean yeah theoretically that would work. Dakka-wise on the stare-down mechanics, we already have RACs for the long-range plinker of the AC2, the UACs if retained the 2/5/10/20 format can still work, and the AC2 acting like AC5 is still pretty stare-dakkaey and they can still partition shots if they really want to.

But I can't help to consider the upper limit, like the Mauler/KGC doing 6 AC2s for 30 alpha long range, Ultraviolence doing 8 AC2s -- or 40 alpha at long range. This is why I'm a strong proponent of making of standard ACs burst-fire like CACs, and restrict single-slug only to LBXs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

While I think Lights should have a better ballistic option, I don't think this is it. Honestly I would be looking more at Magshots and AP Gauss for that as that is more beneficial across the board not just wannabe medium mechs.

Could work. Magshots doing 2 damage for 0.5 tons is neat, like 0.5 ton Rifles. Although I think it would be better if Rifles, were like rockets instead -- non-reloadable, though not single-fire.

[TheArisen]

So I made a poll about the business benefits of adding new tech. NGNG has talked to Daeron and Matt who seem to be in favor of new equipment but naturally to get that to happen it has to be worth the dev time and money.
https://mwomercs.com...equipment-poll/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

Could work. Magshots doing 2 damage for 0.5 tons is neat, like 0.5 ton Rifles. Although I think it would be better if Rifles, were like rockets instead -- non-reloadable, though not single-fire.

Magshots I think are 1 ton, they should at least do equal damage to that of the AP Gauss Rifles (which do 3 damage for 0.5 tons). However the real question is whether they have a charge up mechanic like their big parents.

Hard no on anything more like rockets though unless I'm missing something. Rockets/OS launchers in TT are gimmicky and they are no different in MWO.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

Magshots I think are 1 ton, they should at least do equal damage to that of the AP Gauss Rifles (which do 3 damage for 0.5 tons). However the real question is whether they have a charge up mechanic like their big parents.

Magshots are just 0.5 tons. In terms of damage they could be differentiated by letting Magshot be PPFLD for 2 points and AP Gauss being 3 points of spread somehow (fluff references "flechettes" which we can interpret as either burst-fire, shotgun, or "splash" like CERPPCs). If PPFLD's not enough maybe the Magshot could get some more range too (since it's more of a truly downsized Gauss rather than something a little different like the AP Gauss).

IMO both should have charge-up but it should be very fast, probably faster than even the LGR. Helps with flavor and keeping MGs relevant.

DPS for both should be lower than LMGs (to avoid outright replacing them) because they have greater effective range (because MGs spread) and are frontloaded. But then again I've always felt that LMGs should have more range anyways...

Edited by FupDup, 27 April 2022 - 06:15 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

Magshots I think are 1 ton, they should at least do equal damage to that of the AP Gauss Rifles (which do 3 damage for 0.5 tons). However the real question is whether they have a charge up mechanic like their big parents.

Nope. 0.5 ton, 2 slot. ( https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magshot ). I would really prefer if it was 1 ton, deals 3 damage. But that's what sources ( sarna ) says.

Possibly charge, but I just find it hard to see the point in that. If it's at 0.25s charge, realistically just add 0.25s of cooldown or something.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

Hard no on anything more like rockets though unless I'm missing something. Rockets/OS launchers in TT are gimmicky and they are no different in MWO.

Well, it's not reloadable by adding more ammo-ton bins to extend use, but you don't shoot all your load in a single trigger pull.

If you give them inherent like 30/15/10 shots built in their 3/5/8 tons, doing 5/10/15 damage, every 4/6/8s, players would be less focused in building round them but building with them. While 2x HR is comparable to ammo stores as AC20 + 2 tons of ammo, you would need another 8 tons for 10 more shots, while the AC20 just needs 1 more.

I don't want Rifles reloadable because I don't want them supplanting ACs as main weapons in some builds by longevity of use, I want them as nothing more than backups. But I don't want them gimmicky like RLs either.

In fact, I would prefer if rockets worked that way instead of this just cheap shoot-and-scoot. RL10 deals 20 damage for 0.5 ton. Why not just put 0.5 ton more of ammo? That's like 100 damage for your main gun.

Performance wise, if it's not going to be an emergency weapon, I think I would like to see it having the lore 3/6/9 damage, but +3 damage against structures. After all, TT rules, IIRC, reduces that much for mech armor, so if you're hitting a stripped component it shouldn't do reduced damage.

Yes, I know it's the other way around. But the light rifle doing 0 damage early game because of armor for a 3 ton +1 ton ammo investment is such a bad deal. This way, light rifles have this niche of being cleanup for late game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 April 2022 - 06:47 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 06:22 PM, said:

Nope. 0.5 ton, 2 slot. ( https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magshot ). I would really prefer if it was 1 ton, deals 3 damage. But that's what sources ( sarna ) says.
Possibly charge, but I just find it hard to see the point in that. If it's at 0.25s charge, realistically just add 0.25s of cooldown or something.

FupDup, on 27 April 2022 - 06:13 PM, said:

Magshots are just 0.5 tons. In terms of damage they could be differentiated by letting Magshot be PPFLD for 2 points and AP Gauss being 3 points of spread somehow (fluff references "flechettes" which we can interpret as either burst-fire, shotgun, or "splash" like CERPPCs). If PPFLD's not enough maybe the Magshot could get some more range too (since it's more of a truly downsized Gauss rather than something a little different like the AP Gauss).
IMO both should have charge-up but it should be very fast, probably faster than even the LGR. Helps with flavor and keeping MGs relevant.

Guess I was mistaken on them also being heavier :shrug:.

As far as charge goes, I think it makes sense but they definitely need to be shorter than Light Gauss (at least the magshot) as they are meant for lights which need to make quicker shots than most mechs. The magshot should also have a shorter charge to keep things in a similar vein of lasers where the IS is a bit more accurate at the cost of potential damage.

That said, 2 and 3 damage still feels awfully anemic even if they are half ton. Totally okay to make them lower DPS than MGs though, to a degree (they are less heat efficient than their bigger cousins which isn't something to ignore). Then again, it also depends on whether there would be a charge limit or ghost heat put on them.

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 06:22 PM, said:

Well, it's not reloadable by adding more ammo-ton bins to extend use, but you don't shoot all your load in a single trigger pull. I don't want Rifles reloadable because I don't want them supplanting ACs as main weapons in some builds, I want them as nothing more than backups. But I don't want them gimmicky like RLs either.

That still seems gimmicky, if we are being honest, ammo is really just a tax. However instead of making the tax one about ammo bins (which are 1 ton/1 slot for all of them), you are making it about hardpoints and what can carry multiple which just doesn't make sense. I have my gripes about ammo being the tax it is and how it doesn't really add much to the game (I would say it is actually more of a trap than anything) but I feel like requiring more weapons to be mounted to overcome that is actively worse. It's limiting sure, but not in a good way.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2022 - 06:54 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 06:53 PM, said:

As far as charge goes, I think it makes sense but they definitely need to be shorter than Light Gauss (at least the magshot) as they are meant for lights which need to make quicker shots than most mechs. The magshot should also have a shorter charge to keep things in a similar vein of lasers where the IS is a bit more accurate at the cost of potential damage.

That said, 2 and 3 damage still feels awfully anemic even if they are half ton. Totally okay to make them lower DPS than MGs though, to a degree (they are less heat efficient than their bigger cousins which isn't something to ignore). Then again, it also depends on whether there would be a charge limit or ghost heat put on them.

I'd put them at 3 damage to magshot, 4 damage to AP gauss on the provision of spread shot. The stackable alpha means it's already mechanically different than MGs, and wouldn't really need that much DPS to begin with -- though 2/3s cd is my choice.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 06:53 PM, said:

That still seems gimmicky, if we are being honest, ammo is really just a tax. However instead of making the tax one about ammo bins (which are 1 ton/1 slot for all of them), you are making it about hardpoints and what can carry multiple which just doesn't make sense. I have my gripes about ammo being the tax it is and how it doesn't really add much to the game (I would say it is actually more of a trap than anything) but I feel like requiring more weapons to be mounted to overcome that is actively worse. It's limiting sure, but not in a good way.

Well, "just a tax" is still kind of relevant in builds, and this tax is why it was problematic to put heavy ACs in the first place pre-quirk. Like AC20 Urbie is viable -- if not stellar now.

I think the reloadable Rifles could still work if that's what you want, but I fear that it would be in overlap with something like HVAC and Gauss, and would make them more niche because it's the range where they shine - the "just stand closer and shoot again" is a pervasive "why don't you just" solution. Yeah gauss is also low heat, but still.

I don't think I should bring up DPS in the mix because it's not the point of these hard-hitting ACs. Might as well use AC2s at a distance right?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 April 2022 - 07:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 07:18 PM, said:

Well, "just a tax" is still kind of relevant in builds, and this tax is why it was problematic to put heavy ACs in the first place pre-quirk. Like AC20 Urbie is viable -- if not stellar now.

I'm not saying it isn't relevant, just that the tax is kinda dumb imo. Years ago I probably wouldn't be saying this but honestly, ammo doesn't really add anything to the game, at least nothing worth talking about. Just make everything infinite ammo and be done with it, this game isn't a sim so let's stop pretending and holding on to pieces of the game that just don't make sense. That's my hot-take (and probably unpopular opinion) on ammo at this point.

Side note: There is an exception in my mind, and that is if this game offered ammo switching as imo I think it is fair to have a tax for each alternative ammo you want to take into a game. That however would be predicated on more interesting alternative ammo types than what the LBX was intended for.

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 07:18 PM, said:

I think the reloadable Rifles could still work if that's what you want, but I fear that it would be in overlap with something like HVAC and Gauss.

Both of those options are extremely heavy which to your point does matter because they have a lot of upfront cost that a significant chunk of mechs just can't afford. HVAC and Gauss have nothing available until 8 tons comes into play. Gauss also has charge mechanics which make them function a bit different as well (and imposes some minor limitations like inability to make snapshots). Rifles and/or LACs imo should be ACs that trade range, a bit of potential DPS, and heat efficiency for more burst damage (and potentially velocity, no volleyballs need apply). Magshots would be a more boatable option that just has the charge-up mechanic tied to it and offer slightly more heat efficient damage as the trade-off for the charge-up.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2022 - 08:17 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 08:10 PM, said:

I'm not saying it isn't relevant, just that the tax is kinda dumb imo. Years ago I probably wouldn't be saying this but honestly, ammo doesn't really add anything to the game, at least nothing worth talking about. Just make everything infinite ammo and be done with it, this game isn't a sim so let's stop pretending and holding on to pieces of the game that just don't make sense. That's my opinion at this point.

That's one way of approaching it I guess. Maybe we can make it infinite ammo, but ammo-bins would instead reduce cooldown with diminishing returns.

But the way balance has been set up is that, it seems to me that lasers are made as backup weapons unless boated. Changing this means a great overhaul versus other weapons because on the fact that (i vaguely remember as) lasers are the baseline.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2022 - 08:10 PM, said:

Both of those options are extremely heavy which to your point does matter. HVAC and Gauss have nothing available until 8 tons comes into play. Gauss also has charge mechanics which make them function a bit different. Rifles and/or LACs imo should be ACs that trade range, a bit of potential DPS, and heat efficiency for more burst damage (and potentially velocity, no volleyballs need apply). Magshots would be a more boatable option that just has the charge-up mechanic tied to it and offer slightly more heat efficient damage as the trade-off for the charge-up.

The Heavy Rifles, along with HVAC and Gauss as the alpha ballistics is understandable, I guess their ancillary traits like HVAC having low CD while Gauss being heatless, both having high velocity, would solve things.

I agree, LACs should be balanced by DPS against their competing range band. Yes LAC5 is an AC5, yes LAC2 is an AC2, but they better be offering a good dps if they were to be staredown versus the shoot-scoot AC20/10 that you can shield with. There was this one guy that said that LACs should be high-heat, and you know what, sure I agree.

Magshots and AP Gauss for heat efficiency? At their tonnage, the MG is heatless, so maybe it's the range? How long would be the range anyways?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

But the way balance has been set up is that, it seems to me that lasers are made as backup weapons unless boated. Changing this means a great overhaul versus other weapons because on the fact that (i vaguely remember as) lasers are the baseline.

Balance has already taken that into account outside of the ammo quirks. If you were to add the weight of the typical ammo per weapon to the base weapon and just give everything infinite ammo balance would not change....much (outside again, those with ammo quirks). There might be some things that are impacted since they rely on less ammo than average top builds but overall it isn't like the meta would drastically shift.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 April 2022 - 04:00 PM.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

...There was this one guy that said that LACs should be high-heat, and you know what, sure I agree.

Me me me me meeeeeeeee

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

Magshots and AP Gauss for heat efficiency? At their tonnage, the MG is heatless, so maybe it's the range? How long would be the range anyways?

TT range for Mag and APG is 270 each (and 540 max under MWO rules).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 April 2022 - 04:00 PM, said:

Balance has already taken that into account outside of the ammo quirks. If you were to add the weight of the typical ammo per weapon to the base weapon and just give everything infinite ammo balance would not change....much (outside again, those with ammo quirks). There might be some things that are impacted since they rely on less ammo than average top builds but overall it isn't like the meta would drastically shift.

Eh well, sure. Although now that I think more about it, packing a lot of ammo are also part of other builds like dakka heavy ones or HGR ones, they are purposefully limited. So how do we approach it? do we just reduce ROF significantly to prompt them to add more ammo bins if we take my route of simply increasing fire rate/ton of ammo?

And as for the ammo limitation, what about something like prolonged conflicts like Invasion, where normally dakka builds would eventually run out of ammunition that prompts them changing mechs. Something like an HGR Hunchback usually lose a few tons for ammunition that would otherwise be consumed for something else.

I mean sure, I would like to put HGR when normally the ammo-tax would deter them, but on the low end that makes it possible, probably power-creeps on the high end. Consider this, the Sleipnir with HGR usually builds 7 tons IIRC, now you are dropping that by 5 tons for something else like either +speed or +lasers, the dakka builds that build same or even more ammo tons now can put that to Heatsinks for even MOAR sustain by being ice cold when they wouldn't otherwise like an Anni 2x UAC10 + 2x UAC5 that typically runs hot.

The direwolf that can pack 3x UAC5 + 2x UAC10 usually puts most of it's remaining tonnage with ammo, how do you intend to balance the terror that is the 2x UAC10 + 4x UAC5 Clan Dakka that is made sustainable?

And if ACs don't run out of ammo anymore. What use do we have in using energy builds anyways? Yeah we can pack them together, sure, but why not just keep more dakka and be cool?

I'm not really sure if it's a worthwhile endeavor, considering that we'll probably have to do another round of rebalancing, on a system that isn't exactly broke.

EDIT:

I GOT IT

Make ballistic weapons consume ammo, but ammo replenishes passively overtime, like Energy Draw. Then ammo ton bins slightly increases amount of shots and the replenish speed.

This means you lend credence to dakka builds by packing a lot of ammo, but you can still use them in short bursts when used without.

FupDup, on 28 April 2022 - 04:06 PM, said:

Me me me me meeeeeeeee

I honestly don't remember, but okay.

FupDup, on 28 April 2022 - 04:06 PM, said:

TT range for Mag and APG is 270 each (and 540 max under MWO rules).

Not really a good deal breaker to be honest. If it were at 360m-450m, that's a good reach.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 April 2022 - 05:44 PM.

[LordNothing]

if its rifle, more heat. if its lac/pac, burst fire and/or less range. the pac8 stands to be pretty nifty, 8 damage for 5.5t, so that one might need to be all 3 or have a longer cd.

[Battlemaster56]

I wanna say yes because I want my HAG's for big damage numbers.

Plus I wanna upgrade my Dire Nuke build.