158 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i figure hag40 will take up the same role as the hgauss on the is side. however i think it would be very bad for balance if that was a ppfld weapon. its going to need to have a charge up, burst fire, and spread somewhere in the neiborhood of the lb2-5 (sort of like how a rac spreads). not to confuse it with the sbgauss on the is side which would release all its rounds at once (charging lb).

its up there with the pac8 as potentially being op. so balancing is going to be very challenging.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 April 2022 - 08:23 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

LordNothing, on 29 April 2022 - 08:22 AM, said:

i figure hag40 will take up the same role as the hgauss on the is side. however i think it would be very bad for balance if that was a ppfld weapon. its going to need to have a charge up, burst fire, and spread somewhere in the neiborhood of the lb2-5 (sort of like how a rac spreads). not to confuse it with the sbgauss on the is side which would release all its rounds at once (charging lb).

its up there with the pac8 as potentially being op. so balancing is going to be very challenging.

I think HAG 30 will be bis for the clans it in a nice balance of weight space and damage.

And I agree it should be like a charge up uac. Between the range and damage it gonna a pain to balance and it gonna break alot of mechs.

[Horseman]

I suspect that if HAGs get implemented, they will fire multiple volleys spread over a longer period of time. Think 2-3 seconds salvo maybe

[FupDup]

Battlemaster56, on 29 April 2022 - 10:10 AM, said:

I think HAG 30 will be bis for the clans it in a nice balance of weight space and damage.

And I agree it should be like a charge up uac. Between the range and damage it gonna a pain to balance and it gonna break alot of mechs.

Charge-up MRM more like.

The HAG/40 would probably have its spooky heat cap set to just 1 like the MRM40 and the HAG/30 might also get a cap of 1 depending on how stronk it is. HAG/20 should definitely have a cap of 2 though.

Since they all have the same range, the spread/duration/CD will have to get a little bit worse as you go bigger so that the "small" HAGs have a use (otherwise why spend 20 tons of 2x HAG/20s when a HAG/40 is only 16 tons).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 28 April 2022 - 05:08 PM, said:

Eh well, sure. Although now that I think more about it, packing a lot of ammo are also part of other builds like dakka heavy ones or HGR ones, they are purposefully limited. So how do we approach it? do we just reduce ROF significantly to prompt them to add more ammo bins if we take my route of simply increasing fire rate/ton of ammo?

And as for the ammo limitation, what about something like prolonged conflicts like Invasion, where normally dakka builds would eventually run out of ammunition that prompts them changing mechs. Something like an HGR Hunchback usually lose a few tons for ammunition that would otherwise be consumed for something else.

I mean sure, I would like to put HGR when normally the ammo-tax would deter them, but on the low end that makes it possible, probably power-creeps on the high end. Consider this, the Sleipnir with HGR usually builds 7 tons IIRC, now you are dropping that by 5 tons for something else like either +speed or +lasers, the dakka builds that build same or even more ammo tons now can put that to Heatsinks for even MOAR sustain by being ice cold when they wouldn't otherwise like an Anni 2x UAC10 + 2x UAC5 that typically runs hot.

The direwolf that can pack 3x UAC5 + 2x UAC10 usually puts most of it's remaining tonnage with ammo, how do you intend to balance the terror that is the 2x UAC10 + 4x UAC5 Clan Dakka that is made sustainable?

And if ACs don't run out of ammo anymore. What use do we have in using energy builds anyways? Yeah we can pack them together, sure, but why not just keep more dakka and be cool?

I'm not really sure if it's a worthwhile endeavor, considering that we'll probably have to do another round of rebalancing, on a system that isn't exactly broken

So I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I said add typical ammo usage I didn't mean add just one ton.
For example, Clan Gauss typically runs 2 1/2 tons of ammo give or take a half ton depending on how many other weapons you have and whether you run the ammo skill nodes. Instead of Clan Gauss being 12 tons, it would now weigh 14.5 tons and have infinite ammo. UAC5 is roughly 2 1/2 tons per instance meaning 9.5 tons instead of the 7 just to mount it. Instead of it being up to the user, you just pay it up front. This hurts a few builds that maybe miss the mark by a ton but that could easily be made up by adding weapons that offer lower weight alternatives (or really any alternatives in the case of Clan builds). You do make a solid point about invasion though.

Also it took me a bit to realize the difference between energy weapons and ballistics isn't that one of ammo, ammo is just a tax, you can build around that limitation to suit your needs. The real difference is that energy weapons are in efficient heat wise but have a low initial investment to mount. Same is true for SRMs vs short range ballistics. You can fit almost 5 SRM6 for the tonnage of an AC20, however you pay a price for that extra damage outside of the spread, and that is heat. Due to the size of DHS (at least on the IS side) the more tonnage you have to play with the more you end space constrained such that ballistics just become more attractive because there are limits to how much heat you can handle built in to the mech building. So outside of firing mechanics this is the real distinction. Energy weapons offer the lowest tonnage investment but have a lot of heat, ballistics are the opposite, and missiles in between. All ammo does is hide the effective tonnage through a player trap because you only get a good guage on how much ammo is needed per round through experience, the game offers no help on that. This is why on lighter Mecha builds skew so heavily to lasers and missiles and assaults skew toward ballistics.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 April 2022 - 09:36 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

I doubt you will see any new tech because of the lack of ressources. Therefore any discussion is nice but relatively moot

Edited by Weeny Machine, 29 April 2022 - 10:17 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 April 2022 - 09:33 PM, said:

So I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I said add typical ammo usage I didn't mean add just one ton.

For example, Clan Gauss typically runs 2 1/2 tons of ammo give or take a half ton depending on how many other weapons you have and whether you run the ammo skill nodes. Instead of Clan Gauss being 12 tons, it would now weigh 14.5 tons and have infinite ammo. UAC5 is roughly 2 1/2 tons per instance meaning 9.5 tons instead of the 7 just to mount it. Instead of it being up to the user, you just pay it up front. This hurts a few builds that maybe miss the mark by a ton but that could easily be made up by adding weapons that offer lower weight alternatives (or really any alternatives in the case of Clan builds). You do make a solid point about invasion though.

Okay, fair enough. But some builds can make do of less ammo/ton. You don't have to build 2.5 to 3 tons of ammo per weapon, if you got a lot of them anyways, that the combination of which deals a **** ton of damage anyways. When you got lasers, you also don't have to worry for building lots of ammo, for example the dakka-vomit or gauss vomit that the clan employs, because you have the laser to fall back to.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 April 2022 - 09:33 PM, said:

Also it took me a bit to realize the difference between energy weapons and ballistics isn't that one of ammo, ammo is just a tax, you can build around that limitation to suit your needs. The real difference is that energy weapons are in efficient heat wise but have a low initial investment to mount. Same is true for SRMs vs short range ballistics. You can fit almost 5 SRM6 for the tonnage of an AC20, however you pay a price for that extra damage outside of the spread, and that is heat. Due to the size of DHS (at least on the IS side) the more tonnage you have to play with the more you end space constrained such that ballistics just become more attractive because there are limits to how much heat you can handle built in to the mech building. So outside of firing mechanics this is the real distinction. Energy weapons offer the lowest tonnage investment but have a lot of heat, ballistics are the opposite, and missiles in between. All ammo does is hide the effective tonnage through a player trap because you only get a good guage on how much ammo is needed per round through experience, the game offers no help on that. This is why on lighter Mecha builds skew so heavily to lasers and missiles and assaults skew toward ballistics.

I agree.

[Horseman]

I mean, heat cap is one thing... but we might as well see a ginormous cooldown time and a charge/firing limit of only one HAG at a time (similar to how you can only charge two Gauss Rifles at once)

[LordNothing]

Weeny Machine, on 29 April 2022 - 10:16 PM, said:

I doubt you will see any new tech because of the lack of ressources. Therefore any discussion is nice but relatively moot

well we could talk about balance or the mm instead or squirrels being op, the snipe meta, or any one of the other common whines. but those wouldn't have the same impact on the game that a weapons pack would. and new weapons would change the meta and give you new ways to blast squirrels to oblivion.

[Weeny Machine]

LordNothing, on 30 April 2022 - 08:04 AM, said:

well we could talk about balance or the mm instead or squirrels being op, the snipe meta, or any one of the other common whines. but those wouldn't have the same impact on the game that a weapons pack would. and new weapons would change the meta and give you new ways to blast squirrels to oblivion.

Ok, you convinced me

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 30 April 2022 - 08:04 AM, said:

well we could talk about balance or the mm instead or squirrels being op, the snipe meta, or any one of the other common whines. but those wouldn't have the same impact on the game that a weapons pack would. and new weapons would change the meta and give you new ways to blast squirrels to oblivion.

It might also give new ways for those squirrels to blast fatties into oblivion.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 30 April 2022 - 11:16 AM, said:

It might also give new ways for those squirrels to blast fatties into oblivion.

just the potato assaults who haven't figured out how to integrate the newtech meta yet.

[Der Geisterbaer]

FupDup, on 30 April 2022 - 11:16 AM, said:

It might also give new ways for those squirrels to blast fatties into oblivion.

Depending on their exact implementation I sort of "can't wait" to hear the crying about clan squirrels with 8 to 12 ballistic hard points bringing that many AP Gauss rifles or the IS counterparts using 4 to 6 MagShots (or in case of the upcomming Crusader hero a heavy with 10 MagShots).

[LordNothing]

or perhaps an ultraviolet full of pac4s. about half the range but will let you carry an extra 4 tons of ammo/backup weapons.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 April 2022 - 12:43 PM.

[Mahpsy]

Weeny Machine, on 24 April 2022 - 02:03 AM, said:

I would be happy to have an ARROW IV or THUMBER system to break the camping snipe meta - plus these systems were widely used during that timeframe.

Sidenote: get rid of the air and artillery strikes then

Like I said on my post a while back, mech Mortars guided or non-guided. No LOS required since they fire at high arcs.

[Mahpsy]

Andrewlik, on 24 April 2022 - 09:11 AM, said:

What I'd like to see is a "big", direct fire Clan missile tube.
There are some clan mechs with single or double missile hardpoints, which I don't always feel I can use because why would I waste 3 tons + 1 ton of ammo on srm 12 that on a midrange build?
I don't always want to play LRMs or ATMs, but still want to use midrange missiles. Something MRM-adjacent for clans, but idk what that'd be

Since we got non-cannon mechs lets bring in some non-cannon weapons. Streak MRM's for example one of many.
Source: https://roguetech.fa...ons/All_Weapons

[FupDup]

Mahpsy, on 30 April 2022 - 02:22 PM, said:

Since we got non-cannon mechs lets bring in some non-cannon weapons. Streak MRM's for example one of many.
Source: https://roguetech.fa...ons/All_Weapons

Tracking MRMs would be insanely broken. And we already have plenty of tracking missiles anyways.

I'm not opposed to non-canon weapons, but we should only do that after most of the canon weapons get added and they should only try to fill in specific holes (in terms of role/niche) rather than do obnoxious things like tracking MRMs.

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 30 April 2022 - 02:37 PM, said:

Tracking MRMs would be insanely broken. And we already have plenty of tracking missiles anyways.

I'm not opposed to non-canon weapons, but we should only do that after most of the canon weapons get added and they should only try to fill in specific holes (in terms of role/niche) rather than do obnoxious things like tracking MRMs.

I was thinking of the context of they home in, but not like our current streaks. Semi guided like lrms. Just no weird dead zone or arc to consider. Maybe missile speed adjustments and definitely more heat and shorter range say like 500ish give or take.

Otherwise yes cannon things first. I get tilted any time I see games that have this huge list of lore things people want then they come out and go " Look we made unique thing!" that no one asked for.

[MrTBSC]

Horseman, on 29 April 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

I suspect that if HAGs get implemented, they will fire multiple volleys spread over a longer period of time. Think 2-3 seconds salvo maybe

HAG will be a MRM/RAC b astard with a chargemechanic ...

Mahpsy, on 30 April 2022 - 02:22 PM, said:

Since we got non-cannon mechs lets bring in some non-cannon weapons. Streak MRM's for example one of many.
Source: https://roguetech.fa...ons/All_Weapons

as much as i liked streak MRMs in MW4 ...P UCK NO .. DON`T

Edited by MrTBSC, 01 May 2022 - 01:59 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Mahpsy, on 30 April 2022 - 02:18 PM, said:

Like I said on my post a while back, mech Mortars guided or non-guided. No LOS required since they fire at high arcs.

That would also be great. Basically, I do not care as long as it gets the campers moving

Mahpsy, on 30 April 2022 - 02:22 PM, said:

Since we got non-cannon mechs lets bring in some non-cannon weapons. Streak MRM's for example one of many.
Source: https://roguetech.fa...ons/All_Weapons

Ummm...then there would be no point to play light mechs. I mean a streak MRM boat could obliterate them easily

Edited by Weeny Machine, 01 May 2022 - 05:50 AM.