34 replies to this topic

[Direwoof]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 25 April 2022 - 10:33 PM, said:

No. Clan assaults are not supposed to be tanky, they're supposed to deal high damage and farm big numbers but die like wet toilet paper. If you want a real man's assault, get the Scorch (moderately tanky clan assault), an Annihilator, an Atlas, a charger, a stalker.

Ye my fav is teh Fafnir hero atm, very tanky, ECM, good firepower build UAC 20, MRM 40, 5 medium lasers, will do a lot of dmg over time and will live a long time. I guess for teh sake of "balance ughh" clan mechs can't be what they are supposed to be. I'm very much not afraid when I see a DWF in fact I think of them as a big fat XP pinata and tear them to shreds lol.

An6ryMan69, on 26 April 2022 - 10:03 AM, said:

I find everything feels squishy when it gets constantly pummeled; it's not about Clan Assault, it's about mechs that feel like they are frozen in time and just can't stop getting shot. Personally my lowest performing mech class, by far, is assaults, and that's why. Not getting hit at all is better than being able to take a hit. When the competition gets at all tough, my assaults stay in the mech garage and I'm running around in mechs weighing 50 tons or less.

Ye I find its WAYYY harder to kill fast mediums/lights then heavies or assaults. You can't land any good hits on them they just slip away before taking much damage.

[pattonesque]

Direwoof, on 26 April 2022 - 10:57 AM, said:

Ye my fav is teh Fafnir hero atm, very tanky, ECM, good firepower build UAC 20, MRM 40, 5 medium lasers, will do a lot of dmg over time and will live a long time. I guess for teh sake of "balance ughh" clan mechs can't be what they are supposed to be. I'm very much not afraid when I see a DWF in fact I think of them as a big fat XP pinata and tear them to shreds lol.

a properly positioned and piloted Dire Wolf is one of the scariest mechs in the game. It loses to brawlers of course but this is a robbit which can run the firepower of a dual-gauss Jager with a laservom Timber Wolf bolted on top. Or ERLL or a number of other options. At mid-long range it is top-tier

[Heavy Money]

For reference, here's some armor values:

100T:
DWF-Prime: CT 137, ST 97
KDK-3: CT 126, ST86

AS7-D: CT 155, ST 109
ANH-2A: CT 127, ST 83
FNR-5: CT 157, ST 95
KGC-000: CT 144, ST 96
MAD-4A: CT 145, ST 98

90T:
MCII-1: CT 111, ST 71
BAS-A: CT 111, ST 78

CP-S: CT 111, ST 71
HGN-732: CT 140, ST 89
MAL-1R: CT 111, ST 71

85T:
MAD-IIC: CT 103, ST 74
WHK-Prime: CT 103, ST 67

BLR-1G: CT 103, ST 67
STK-7D: CT 109, ST 85


This list is not exhaustive, and of course armor varies by pods/variant, and there's a lot more to durability than armor.

At a glance, it looks like IS just generally has higher armor in the 100T category. But when you look deeper, the reason the armor is so much ahead on some of those mechs is because being tough is a big part of their thing (Atlas, MAD II) or they needed massive armor quirks in one area to compensate for terrible hitboxes (FNR, KGC, both of which are still weak overall.)

In the lower tonnages, armor values are actually much more aligned, except for the HGN, which is another example of having tons of quirks thrown at it to try to overcome its hitbox and mixed weapon problems.

So the idea that IS = tougher and clan = more firepower is roughly correct, but its not really that simple either. Its not that there was a baseline, and some mechs are shootier and less tough than the base, and others are less shooty and more tough than the base. These clan mechs are at the baseline. Its the case that the IS mechs are tougher because, when they needed to be made more competitive, the choice was made to stack defensive quirks on them as that was more role appropriate.

So the DWF has had its ups and downs. Its biggest problem has always been its hitboxes and agility, not damage potential. So when it gets buffs, they have been to do with things like mobility. (There have been some offensive buffs, but they are mostly So8 or underused pods.)

Anyhow, I'm not going anywhere specific with this or arguing a specific point, I just thought it was interesting. 100ton mech internal balance has improved a lot this last year, especially MAD IIs which were really in the dumps before. FNR and KGC still tough to justify due to hitbox issues, and several KDK variants don't get used. But overall things have come a long way, and we'll probably continue to see improvements!

[Direwoof]

Heavy Money, on 26 April 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

For reference, here's some armor values: 100T: DWF-Prime: CT 137, ST 97 KDK-3: CT 126, ST86 AS7-D: CT 155, ST 109 ANH-2A: CT 127, ST 83 FNR-5: CT 157, ST 95 KGC-000: CT 144, ST 96 MAD-4A: CT 145, ST 98 90T: MCII-1: CT 111, ST 71 BAS-A: CT 111, ST 78 CP-S: CT 111, ST 71 HGN-732: CT 140, ST 89 MAL-1R: CT 111, ST 71 85T: MAD-IIC: CT 103, ST 74 WHK-Prime: CT 103, ST 67 BLR-1G: CT 103, ST 67 STK-7D: CT 109, ST 85 This list is not exhaustive, and of course armor varies by pods/variant, and there's a lot more to durability than armor. At a glance, it looks like IS just generally has higher armor in the 100T category. But when you look deeper, the reason the armor is so much ahead on some of those mechs is because being tough is a big part of their thing (Atlas, MAD II) or they needed massive armor quirks in one area to compensate for terrible hitboxes (FNR, KGC, both of which are still weak overall.) In the lower tonnages, armor values are actually much more aligned, except for the HGN, which is another example of having tons of quirks thrown at it to try to overcome its hitbox and mixed weapon problems. So the idea that IS = tougher and clan = more firepower is roughly correct, but its not really that simple either. Its not that there was a baseline, and some mechs are shootier and less tough than the base, and others are less shooty and more tough than the base. These clan mechs are at the baseline. Its the case that the IS mechs are tougher because, when they needed to be made more competitive, the choice was made to stack defensive quirks on them as that was more role appropriate. So the DWF has had its ups and downs. Its biggest problem has always been its hitboxes and agility, not damage potential. So when it gets buffs, they have been to do with things like mobility. (There have been some offensive buffs, but they are mostly So8 or underused pods.) Anyhow, I'm not going anywhere specific with this or arguing a specific point, I just thought it was interesting. 100ton mech internal balance has improved a lot this last year, especially MAD IIs which were really in the dumps before. FNR and KGC still tough to justify due to hitbox issues, and several KDK variants don't get used. But overall things have come a long way, and we'll probably continue to see improvements!

Ye it's probably teh lack of speed is why teh direwoof is so easy to kill too. I just blast it teh second i see it and they can't really get away.

[Heavy Money]

Direwoof, on 26 April 2022 - 07:57 PM, said:

Ye it's probably teh lack of speed is why teh direwoof is so easy to kill too. I just blast it teh second i see it and they can't really get away.

Lots of those others have similar speed. Its the hitboxes, low agility, and that the DWF tends to run loadouts that want to stare down a target to keep firing, so its not twisting so much.

[Hobbles v]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 26 April 2022 - 08:42 AM, said:

The annihilator would like to have a word...

The Annihilator will staredown any single mech in the game. So in that regard Yes it is. But pretty much all 100 tonners do that, only needing to fear better 100 tonners for the most part.

As battlefield mechs, no. Annihlators are just damage sponges that die just as fast as anything else when shot by multiple people,because they are slow and easy targets.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Direwoof, on 26 April 2022 - 10:57 AM, said:

I'm very much not afraid when I see a DWF in fact I think of them as a big fat XP pinata and tear them to shreds lol.

remember those words once you run into a properly built&piloted Dire.
there's a reason it is still a frequently piloted mech by good pilots, DESPITE it's MANY failings.

[pattonesque]

yeah like a poorly-piloted Dire Wolf is just free cbills. A well-piloted one will win games all on its lonesome

[foamyesque]

pattonesque, on 28 April 2022 - 09:43 AM, said:

yeah like a poorly-piloted Dire Wolf is just free cbills. A well-piloted one will win games all on its lonesome

Speaking as an occasional (and bad) Dire Wolf pilot myself, this is 100% accurate. A whale that can play a whale's game is one of the nastiest things on the field, but one that's out of position or unsupported is one of the easiest kills you can get.

Edited by foamyesque, 07 May 2022 - 02:08 AM.

[Reverend Flashback]

Took me quite some time to find a direwolf build I like.
I'm using 2xLpl, 6xErMed, 2xUac10 now.
It works pretty well compared to anything else I tried.

The lasers punch holes through armor and the uac10 spam makes enemy mechs retreat instead of shooting back.
Also all weapons have roughly the same range and are mounted in the arms.
On top of that it works on a direwolf prime without breaking the set of 8 bonus.

But honestly:
It's like all slow assaults -- if you're left behind in the nascar you're going to die.

[w0qj]

That's the classic DWF-Prime(I) build

Also: April 2022 patch DWF-Prime CT got new quirks:
-5% Heat, -5% Laser Duration, -25% Radar Deprivation!
https://mwomercs.com...530-19april2022
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Reverend Flashback, on 03 May 2022 - 01:07 PM, said:

Took me quite some time to find a direwolf build I like.
I'm using 2xLpl, 6xErMed, 2xUac10 now.
It works pretty well compared to anything else I tried.

The lasers punch holes through armor and the uac10 spam makes enemy mechs retreat instead of shooting back.
Also all weapons have roughly the same range and are mounted in the arms.
On top of that it works on a direwolf prime without breaking the set of 8 bonus.

But honestly:
It's like all slow assaults -- if you're left behind in the nascar you're going to die.

Edited by w0qj, 03 May 2022 - 05:31 PM.

[Ekson Valdez]

Since this thread has more or less evolved into a discussion on Direwolf builds, it has been relocated to Assault Mech Builds.

[Void Angel]

Direwoof, on 26 April 2022 - 07:57 PM, said:

Ye it's probably teh lack of speed is why teh direwoof is so easy to kill too. I just blast it teh second i see it and they can't really get away.

I've spent very little time in a Dire Wolf, myself (and I haven't been too active for a while, though I still haunt the forums,) but I have spent a lot of time piloting a 'mech that is in many ways its opposite: the Atlas. I've piloted that 'mech in one of my guild's competitive teams Back in the Day, and demonstrated a high degree of stubbornness by sticking with it through the entire poptart meta period. This gives me some insight on fighting Dire Wolves from another perspective, and I'd like add some advice about a couple of things that have been touched on here, but not deeply discussed:

First, we need to talk about more than armor when discussing durability - we also have to talk about damage spreading. Dire Wolves' ability to spread damage is abysmal. That's why they feel so vulnerable, even for a 100-tonner with few defensive quirks. The Atlas, on the other hand, can torso twist effectively, and I have walked my Atlas through an entire enemy team in a close-ranged push, then still had (some) guns when I turned around on the other side. I could do that partially because a lot of the enemy 'mechs were high-alpha poke-and-trade builds; but I also was able to spread the incoming damage around through positioning and torso twisting. This game (like all MechWarrior games, and tabletop before them) is a game of attrition, and spreading damage increases your time to kill while preserving your weapons for more of the fight. Dire wolves can't do very much of this, so they rely on firepower and positioning to extend their lifespans. It's a different kind of 'mech.

Which brings me to my second point: the primary limitation of all Assault 'mechs is reduced mobility, and the Dire Wolf's hard-locked engine makes it the slowest 'mech in the game (barring an IS pilot doing something stupid in the Mechlab.) Even the Atlas is significantly faster with any viable build, and a lot of pilots have trouble keeping up with the group in something that slow and heavy. Now, part of that is just physics, but a lot of pilots have PEBKAC issues with handling that low mobility. I've had pilots who started in my lance whine about being "left behind by Nascar" in their Assaults, while my Atlas was still with the rear elements of the main group. The Dire Wolf is even slower than my Atlas, and sometimes you simply will not be able to keep up with a running fight - just remember that picking a path to avoid upslopes and obstructions while heading toward the main group's destination will take you a long way (just don't cut the angles too much.)

So! I'm not an expert Dire Wolf pilot by any means, but I've seen it done - and I've seen periods where the meta was simply too geared toward faster 'mechs to allow the Whale to shine. From what I've observed, the best way to pilot the Dire Wolf is to project your battlefield presence through firepower: no one wants to slug it out with you, and so your goal is to position yourself to both pick those one-on-one fights - and to avoid being pecked to death by snipers, or swarmed by Lights.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 May 2022 - 12:24 AM.

[NightNova]

Void Angel, on 05 May 2022 - 12:19 AM, said:

I've spent very little time in a Dire Wolf, myself (and I haven't been too active for a while, though I still haunt the forums,) but I have spent a lot of time piloting a 'mech that is in many ways its opposite: the Atlas. I've piloted that 'mech in one of my guild's competitive teams Back in the Day, and demonstrated a high degree of stubbornness by sticking with it through the entire poptart meta period. This gives me some insight on fighting Dire Wolves from another perspective, and I'd like add some advice about a couple of things that have been touched on here, but not deeply discussed: First, we need to talk about more than armor when discussing durability - we also have to talk about damage spreading. Dire Wolves' ability to spread damage is abysmal. That's why they feel so vulnerable, even for a 100-tonner with few defensive quirks. The Atlas, on the other hand, can torso twist effectively, and I have walked my Atlas through an entire enemy team in a close-ranged push, then still had (some) guns when I turned around on the other side. I could do that partially because a lot of the enemy 'mechs were high-alpha poke-and-trade builds; but I also was able to spread the incoming damage around through positioning and torso twisting. This game (like all MechWarrior games, and tabletop before them) is a game of attrition, and spreading damage increases your time to kill while preserving your weapons for more of the fight. Dire wolves can't do very much of this, so they rely on firepower and positioning to extend their lifespans. It's a different kind of 'mech. Which brings me to my second point: the primary limitation of all Assault 'mechs is reduced mobility, and the Dire Wolf's hard-locked engine makes it the slowest 'mech in the game (barring an IS pilot doing something stupid in the Mechlab.) Even the Atlas is significantly faster with any viable build, and a lot of pilots have trouble keeping up with the group in something that slow and heavy. Now, part of that is just physics, but a lot of pilots have PEBKAC issues with handling that low mobility. I've had pilots who started in my lance whine about being "left behind by Nascar" in their Assaults, while my Atlas was still with the rear elements of the main group. The Dire Wolf is even slower than my Atlas, and sometimes you simply will not be able to keep up with a running fight - just remember that picking a path to avoid upslopes and obstructions while heading toward the main group's destination will take you a long way (just don't cut the angles too much.) So! I'm not an expert Dire Wolf pilot by any means, but I've seen it done - and I've seen periods where the meta was simply too geared toward faster 'mechs to allow the Whale to shine. From what I've observed, the best way to pilot the Dire Wolf is to project your battlefield presence through firepower: no one wants to slug it out with you, and so your goal is to position yourself to both pick those one-on-one fights - and to avoid being pecked to death by snipers, or swarmed by Lights.

Quite exact description about battlefield tactics for a direwolf pilot even if you didn't spent not to much time on it.

As a pretty frequent direwolf for a while, I'd say the most notorious enemy I could expect, is gauss/ERPPC peek a boo at medium-long range, however, there's literally no one may survive more than 2 or 3 full alpha strike of a well built direwolf. I personally pilot a brawler type direwolf (much like Reverend Flashback's build but I prefer 2HLL+6MPL), any heavy/assault couldn't have much armor left where I land my first alpha punch at ~300m range. (Even an Atlas - the trick is to aim at the right torso, most Atlas will lost half of their firepower after landing a critical hit on their ballistic weaponry)

Direwolf is kind of fragile under the circumstance that the pilot selecting a bad route, choosing to station at a bad position, overwhelming by long range poke weaponry, swarming by skilled lights, or facing more than two enemies from different directions. The essential of pumping more damage output from a direwolf, is choosing wisely of approaching route and well awareness of battlefield, aiming and twisting is not as important as other brawler build assaults to direwolf.

[panzer1b]

Its mostly because of the fact that clam assaults carry arguably superior firepower to IS equivalents, and some are even faster then IS heavys. Pretty much the only way to balance them, make them unable to take as much punishment.

Still, if you are haiving any trouble with clam assaults, i suggest trying some longer ranged weapons which is where clam tends to have the advantage in. A direwolf in a brawl is fairly easy to kill when you arent going 1v1 against it. A dire with the notorious 8xac2 build at 1km is near impossible to deal with unless you are either a poptart or rocking high mount ERLLs (and even then it had better be 5-6 of them to justify the trade).

That and dont rely as much on twisting but rather focus on your positioning since many of the good assaults have mediocre or even trash torso twist rates so dont expect to just twist away the damage like you can on IS equivalents.