37 replies to this topic

[Sean Lang]

[Meep Meep]

I hopped on the test server and redid all my favorite mechs and holy crap is this transformative. Being able to dump the filler skills and put them on exactly what I want is allowing for many more effective fits. My lights especially the ecm/stealth lights are especially liking it because they always seemed to be a half dozen or so points shy of the best combo of nodes for its role. Now you will be able to fully specialize a mech to your personal tastes. Hell on some mechs I ended up using a few filler skills anyways because I ran out of wanted ones.

[w0qj]

Yeah, so everyone with Skill Tree respec has extra 10-15 Skill Nodes to use, so what will they use it on?
Happy problem

Actually MWO can change the "Filler Nodes" into new MWO skills later on!!
(Shock Absorbance, Hard Brake, Quick Ignition, etc. are filler nodes for me)

[Meep Meep]

For my lights shock absorbance is a must because sometimes you have to leap off a cliff to escape getting mobbed or just to get somewhere quicker to reset cap etc. But yeah for most mechs especially the larger ones its not something I use.

[Curccu]

How much you do you think Jump jet trees need to be buffed that someone (Who is actually understanding MWO and trying to do best build possible) would take those nodes over good nodes (CD, heat, health, consumables etc.)

[Meep Meep]

Cauldron sidestepped that entire jj tree with their jj rework. There really isn't any point to taking them at all even on the jj specialist mechs though you can do some hilarious super jumps if you skill buff the jj on say a spider with max jj. I think the entire jj tree should be deleted along with quick start.

[LordNothing]

i was going to participate in the pts. but il just wait for patch day. even if i see something i dont like, i very much doubt there is much pgi can do at this point. im not even sure why they bothered with a pts.

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 12 May 2022 - 01:29 AM, said:

Cauldron sidestepped that entire jj tree with their jj rework. There really isn't any point to taking them at all even on the jj specialist mechs though you can do some hilarious super jumps if you skill buff the jj on say a spider with max jj. I think the entire jj tree should be deleted along with quick start.

I don't think they need to be deleted, but they certainly should be condensed into a smaller number of nodes that give the same (or greater?) total value that you can get now for maxing them out.

Silly legacy features like hill climb, quick start, etc. should probably only be 2-3 nodes at most so you can throw them on as an afterthought if you have leftover points after you get the actually good skills.

[Meep Meep]

Hill climb is a go to skill for my lights too. Without hill climb it can stall out running up cliffs instead of just zipping up and over them. But reducing its nodes from 3 to 2 would be nice.

[w0qj]

+1
Hillclimb is still needed on some mechs, albeit more of a niche need.

For my slow assaults (with slow acceleration), Hillclimb noticably makes it much easier to climb the same hill (no JJ obviously).
May well make the difference between safely passing thru, rather than be caught out in the open and Assault dying...

Meep Meep, on 12 May 2022 - 04:48 AM, said:

Hill climb is a go to skill for my lights too. Without hill climb it can stall out running up cliffs instead of just zipping up and over them. But reducing its nodes from 3 to 2 would be nice.

[Hobbles v]

Meep Meep, on 12 May 2022 - 01:29 AM, said:

Cauldron sidestepped that entire jj tree with their jj rework. There really isn't any point to taking them at all even on the jj specialist mechs though you can do some hilarious super jumps if you skill buff the jj on say a spider with max jj. I think the entire jj tree should be deleted along with quick start.

It's rare to find real use for the JJ tree. But in faction play (namely vitifc forge) I have some jump jet tree on my WHM-9D and my RFL-II-C. I specifically got this to allow these mechs to jump on top of the base from the outside, something that wasn't possible with these mechs without the skill investment.

The jump jet tree is still pretty bad overall. But not 100% useless in all scenarios. I do think breaking up the skill tree into all these different sections though however is going to make it easier for The cauldron to rebalance them as for the most part they can look at specific skills and buff or Nerf them without having to consider the rest of the tree that they are in. Perhaps the jump jet tree would be useful if they halved the number of nodes and increase to potency of each to reflect that.

[Heavy Money]

LordNothing, on 12 May 2022 - 02:22 AM, said:

i was going to participate in the pts. but il just wait for patch day. even if i see something i dont like, i very much doubt there is much pgi can do at this point. im not even sure why they bothered with a pts.

They've been testing tons of different settings for the Event Queue and seeing how they work out in a live setting. That seems to have been the main point. Which is a very good thing to get tested before it gets dropped on everyone. Apparently there's been some really funny combos.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Meep Meep, on 11 May 2022 - 11:56 PM, said:

I hopped on the test server and redid all my favorite mechs and holy crap is this transformative. Being able to dump the filler skills and put them on exactly what I want is allowing for many more effective fits

This is the layout the skill tree should have had when they first decided to implement it. We all complained about the filler nodes back then, but obviously they ignored the feedback and kept saying "build diversity". It feels so damn good not having to tie up 10-15 points in nodes you don't need.

I've spent my time re-applying the skill points on my most used mechs and I'm pretty excited to catch a few games when I'm done.

[KodiakGW]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 12 May 2022 - 06:07 PM, said:

This is the layout the skill tree should have had when they first decided to implement it. We all complained about the filler nodes back then, but obviously they ignored the feedback and kept saying "build diversity".

Don't forget those those kept touting the 'min-max' rhetoric as to why gating nodes were needed. Yeah, old management listened to them, and didn't bother to check that the majority of them stopped playing within 6 months of implementation. Seems like there is some new management directing things in the recent months. Some of the old better ideas are being looked at, and we are seeing two being implemented this patch.

Had fun tooling around in the mechlab. Tried to get one match by choosing Event Queue like the scroll at the bottom said. But after 5 minutes I just went back to testing some future purchase ideas. Looking forward to the new tree and the Event Queue.

[LordNothing]

i finally got around to messing with the pts. while it is a lot easier to set up your skill trees, it sucks because you will have to re-buy a lot of nodes that are lost down the tree if you ever want to tweak something. it also seems like they completely forgot the objective of simplifying the tree. its the kind of patch that is going to need to be revisited in a couple years if the game doesn't flat out die first.

[Der Geisterbaer]

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:07 AM, said:

it also seems like they completely forgot the objective of simplifying the tree.

Well, a simplification - like turning several nodes into just one (or at least fewer) - would have required an actual refund mechanism. That didn't go over too well last time with historic xp and GSP and the need to actively going into the skill tree on each mech. This time you can just leave things "as is" and only deal with (re-) skilling if and when you want for the mech in question.

A simplification could be done later but will always pose that particular problem of refund and complete reskill.

[Meep Meep]

A nice simplification that was added is that you can select whatever amount of skill nodes you want with one click. Just pick the node as far down as you want and all the connecting nodes will auto select. So range and cooldown and heat can all be done with one click instead of over a dozen each. Same with all the other trees.

[LordNothing]

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2022 - 02:22 AM, said:

Well, a simplification - like turning several nodes into just one (or at least fewer) - would have required an actual refund mechanism. That didn't go over too well last time with historic xp and GSP and the need to actively going into the skill tree on each mech. This time you can just leave things "as is" and only deal with (re-) skilling if and when you want for the mech in question.

A simplification could be done later but will always pose that particular problem of refund and complete reskill.

last time we were using a completely different system. people sank millions of cbills into modules and wanted them back, and they wanted to keep mastery. this is just a rearrangement of the new system. skill points are the same, currencies already exist. this thing already refunds the orphaned nodes it seems. since you have to fix all your mechs anyway (or else run sub-optimal) refunding all the unlocked nodes instead seems a better way to do things.

the 3-2 node reduction might be unpopular. that's why you make 2 nodes have the same value as 3. you increase all node values by 50%. 60 is a good number as it gives you close to a 2/3 rounding, and the reciprocal of 1.5 gives you a clean scale factor, any error can be rounded up and be a partial free node. you would also need to reduce all the node chains such that 60 nodes is enough to reach the same level of mastery. a node reduction of 2/3 per category could be either accomplished by culling a third of the more useless nodes, or reducing the existing node chains and buffing proportionally. the math kind of works out.

[Der Geisterbaer]

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

last time we were using a completely different system.

Indeed, the systems were completely different, but ...

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

people sank millions of cbills into modules and wanted them back, and they wanted to keep mastery.

... the problem is ultimately the same: People predominantly want to retain their (current) mastery now just as they wanted back then ... this time preferably without even having to touch the skills at all.

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

this is just a rearrangement of the new system.

That's the problematic aspect right there: Their current implementation on the PTS is indeed just a rearrangement of this new(er) system where skill point totals, node counts, etc. are exactly the same and thus allow anyone who doesn't open the "Skills" window to retain their current mech mastery.

You however said that they should also have made additional improvements like the node counts (and thus by implication the skill point totals) and possibly other improvements as well.

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

skill points are the same,

Allowed skill point totals would have to change (unless you want to introduce a form of powercreep by merging multiple nodes into fewer but retain the current total of allowing 91 points to be spent - which according to later parts of your comment you don't want)

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

currencies already exist.

Indeed, mostly unproblematic

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

this thing already refunds the orphaned nodes it seems.

It only starts refunding those "orphaned" nodes when you actively enter the "Skills" window. Otherwise it leaves all currently chosen nodes untouched.

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

since you have to fix all your mechs anyway (or else run sub-optimal) refunding all the unlocked nodes instead seems a better way to do things.

And this seems to be the point of contention: There already have been voices from players not wanting to have to do that "for 800+" mechs. The current implementation does not automatically reset / refund all mechs and one can fix them whenever one feels the need to do so or simply keep the current setting (regardless of whether you personally deem that to be "sub-optimal" [and me agreeing to that pov]).

However, in case of lowered skill node numbers with altered bonus values per node the reset / refund would have to be forced the second the change is rolled out.

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

any error can be rounded up and be a partial free node.

Even more "powercreep" than what we'll see with the current implementation.

LordNothing, on 13 May 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

you would also need to reduce all the node chains such that 60 nodes is enough to reach the same level of mastery.

Which is - as mentioned before- the main stop gap because it forces a refund / reset on every mech and each player must re-assign in order to regain the original (or better) mastery state they currently hold.

And then you'd still have to deal with the question of how to refund players on mechs where they already unlocked lets say 215 of (now) 239 skill nodes. A number of unlocked nodes via that would very likely exceed the "new" total.

=> With their currently limited dev resources I can see why they didn't touch these additional problem even with a ten foot pole.

[LordNothing]

i dont want to have to do this on 411 mechs. but, as it is, those mechs will be rendered sub-optimal and will need to be delt with anyway. i still need to tweak 411 formerly mastered mechs. many of them have enough xp to fix, but there will be some that will need to be partially re-ground to restore to a viable state. its going to suck, a lot.

the damage is done, so why not go all the way and re-visit the simplification goal? you also dont need the same convoluted refund process as you can just reset the trees and refund all the skill points.