59 replies to this topic

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

hmm.. it still boils down to "people looking for an engagement every now and then"
or "they don't".
atm (and it's been that for years) is "they don't".

and imo it's not even a question of dmg or armor.
you can suppress 10-12 dudes at 1200m with a single erLL.
they hear the "I'm being touched by a laser"-sound, and they all cower and cuddle in the next sinkhole.
you can give them 50times the armor, and half the erLL-dmg - and they still do the same thing.

not saying your idea doesn't work on paper - but it's more of a player-issue, as per usual in mwo.
on top it'd require another series of rebalancing-everything - quite sure we all don't want that


as the game it is -now-, imo all the playstyles are viable. maybe not totally equal, but viable.
-lasvom has a good midrange-hand, but gets pushed -and in a 1v1 killed by- dps-ballistics and srm,
and outclassed in longrange by everything 'long range'.
-shortrange stuff is strong, but comes with it's own difficulties and dangers.
-lrms are quite strong in DF, and still highly annoying in IDF
-mrm .. good damage, but lacks in the 'kill them quickly' department.

-snipers - imo, they feel very strong. not sure if its the quirks, the weapons or the playerbases inability to not-hide-it-out.. in some form or another this is sth that needs to be looked at, imo.

-dps-builds are -still- a very good way, even in the current hidefest, to do lots of damage& lots of kills over the match. problem here is positioning (and the rest of the team running in circles OR hiding it out). but if you're playing clever, you still do your 1200+dmg and take out 1/3+ of the reds.
imo they aren't underperforming - it's a matchmaker&playerbase-problem usually

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 18 May 2022 - 03:22 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

You would literally have to put mega ghost heat on firing more than 1 weapon at a time. At which point nearly the entire remaining player base would abandon the game.

[PocketYoda]

The only real way to fix it would be go back to variant mechs and remove pin point accuracy.

Can't see that ever happening.

[East Indy]

Mahpsy, on 14 May 2022 - 03:31 PM, said:

I'm wondering why more people don't try out more flexible load outs.

1) MWO's design allows weapons to scale linearly until they hit HSL, 2) players generally prefer harder-hitting shots with simple grouping if given a choice, especially if required to be competitive.

What you're asking for needs a fresh start with a new developer that's willing to go against the grain of the franchise.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i have tossed around one idea for dealing with high alpha pinpoint builds a time or two and it only requires some relatively simple alterations (though it would piss off a LOT of meta cry babies)

all you need do is to get rid of convergence for torso mounted weapons. (it would make sense on a mechanical lvl.) see it this way, the mechs' arms have actuators and servos that can shift your weapons to target a single point but the weapons in the torso do not. those weapons are fix mounted. this would alter the convergence so that weapons in the torso are spread out just a bit depending on location (even something like the all energy Hunchy with its Laser hunch cluster would be spreading that damage over a larger area since each laser would be firing dead forward.) this way you could still have you pinpoint but at the risk of putting your weapons in the normally much less armored arms making them easier to destroy. now this would hurt some mechs more than others, mechs like the Fafnir with its wide torso would make hitting with both weapons a little harder but likely make that damage hit two locations instead of one. (now you could mitigate this some with a quirk on some of the barn door mechs. something like "5% torso weapon convergence" representing the fact that this mech has some limited gimble in the torso mounts could also make it a skill node now that the new skill tree opens up more ability to focus in skills (so with using all "torso weapon gimble" nodes on a mech with the gimble quirk would give convergence equal to how it is now)).

the biggest downside to this is that it would make aiming a little more skill based as each mech would be a little different in where you want the crosshair to be. use the Laser Hunchy from before you would need to place the center of the crosshair a bit left of where you want to hit since the hunch cluster is on the right shoulder of the mech to the side of the cockpit. a fix would be to put a dot or something inside the crosshair that shows the point of aim of the torso weapons. though this would require slight alterations to the HUD for each mech that is connected to if you have weapons in the respective locations, that is a LOT of work for the devs though.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 18 May 2022 - 07:07 PM.

[Mahpsy]

VeeOt Dragon, on 18 May 2022 - 07:04 PM, said:

i have tossed around one idea for dealing with high alpha pinpoint builds a time or two and it only requires some relatively simple alterations (though it would piss off a LOT of meta cry babies)

all you need do is to get rid of convergence for torso mounted weapons. (it would make sense on a mechanical lvl.) see it this way, the mechs' arms have actuators and servos that can shift your weapons to target a single point but the weapons in the torso do not. those weapons are fix mounted. this would alter the convergence so that weapons in the torso are spread out just a bit depending on location (even something like the all energy Hunchy with its Laser hunch cluster would be spreading that damage over a larger area since each laser would be firing dead forward.) this way you could still have you pinpoint but at the risk of putting your weapons in the normally much less armored arms making them easier to destroy. now this would hurt some mechs more than others, mechs like the Fafnir with its wide torso would make hitting with both weapons a little harder but likely make that damage hit two locations instead of one. (now you could mitigate this some with a quirk on some of the barn door mechs. something like "5% torso weapon convergence" representing the fact that this mech has some limited gimble in the torso mounts could also make it a skill node now that the new skill tree opens up more ability to focus in skills (so with using all "torso weapon gimble" nodes on a mech with the gimble quirk would give convergence equal to how it is now)).

the biggest downside to this is that it would make aiming a little more skill based as each mech would be a little different in where you want the crosshair to be. use the Laser Hunchy from before you would need to place the center of the crosshair a bit left of where you want to hit since the hunch cluster is on the right shoulder of the mech to the side of the cockpit. a fix would be to put a dot or something inside the crosshair that shows the point of aim of the torso weapons. though this would require slight alterations to the HUD for each mech that is connected to if you have weapons in the respective locations, that is a LOT of work for the devs though.

I've honestly liked the idea of torso weapons not being pinpoint. True some mechs would struggle more of the barn door nature, but in the end most of those mechs are trying to boat the before mentioned "problem" weapons, so it wouldn't be as much as a draw back but a self balancing mechanic.

[caravann]

You get 3 crosshair for each sector. Center is no longer divided into a twilight zone of being both left and right.
left crosshair only follow left side torso, right only follow right torso. center follows arms and arms continue working as before.

Today we have 2 crosshair, one in center and one for arms. The center crosshair is removed and replaced with two fixed side torso crosshairs and the arm is going to be locked in place in the center as before with the new feature that center torso weapons follows the arm mounted weapons aim.

Center torso weapons are a niche on their own and when you only have center left the aim crosshair is removed since you don't have any arms. This would had reduced extra programming since the feature who controls your arms are never disabled.

[LordNothing]

more racs. better racs, bigger racs, clan racs.

there are enough rac fanbois in the game that would do a lot of damage if racs had their spin up removed or greatly reduced. there are enough top players who are hellbent on defending their stance that dps is less effective than alpha. if that's true then why keep the best dps weapon in the game crippled thusly?

Edited by LordNothing, 19 May 2022 - 06:13 AM.

[Dinochrome]

I'm don't think you can make "non alpha strike" mechs popular now. Games and players evolve over time. You could resort to only using stock canon mechs which is not feasible, but the current fan base won't support it. If you want to downplay strike mechs, totally randomize the map generation. No two maps' features are ever the same. Might be interesting to play a map where you didn't know the location of a feature or if that feature even exists when you drop. I don't believe the current game engine supports that concept. Just a thought.

V/R Dinochrome

[D o z e r]

FupDup's post is right on the money. This is an important distinction and I agree with the post overall. Bracket builds generally get laughed at in a comp setting but can do OK in quick play and I think are actually quite good in the smaller 8 v 8 events.

Our team runs what we call "Horizon" builds, that try to make Bracket builds work by focusing on weapon systems that naturally combine long range and brawl potential. An example would be boating AC2s, they have great range and can play the sniping game well but are also devastating at mid range or in a brawl. Props to WelldoneWorker for another "Horizon" build I'd recommend, a 4 ER Large laser charger with jump jets and 2 streak 6s: awesome long range pop-tarting and you turn the tables if lights try and backstab you. In general the streaks add a lot of brawl potential and make for a sniper that is nasty in a brawl too.

[Reverend Flashback]

I don't really see this as a problem caused by alpha builds.
Ballistic builds (aka sustained dps, cause anything else is basically going for high dmg per cycle) work for me like they always did.
The problem with ballistic weapons is, that like at least a third of them is bad.
Except for Ac2s and maaaybe IS Ac20 they are all overshadowed by their Uac counterpart.
And on clan side the non Uac versions are further pushed away from being used by Lbxs.

But generally speaking, Dakka works very well.
You just have to be more bold and realize when you have to apply your damage.
If you're trying to win peek duels though, it won't end well.

Edited by Reverend Flashback, 30 May 2022 - 09:01 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Seems to me that making sustained Dakka have negligible heat accretion, less jams or better critical chance (pick one) would help the balance.

Lasers have buggy benefits like hitting multiple hit boxes at the same time with a single beam.
I cringe when I hear the excuse that laser damage is spread, who cares if you can't miss due to hit-scan.
All weapons spread damage when the other player is twisting it's a strawman argument.
It's hardly a draw back if you can't miss the target.
At the same time I don't want to see them nerfed. They still need to be king of poke next to agile PPC snipers.


Was just pondering what would happen if all FCS or Computers weight was reduced starting at 0.25 Tons for the smallest and increasing mass by only 0.25 for each increment there after because their mass and volume are ridiculous.

[caravann]

Computers are what make lasers very powerful at long distance. Because of its liberal stacking it's compared with an C-AC20 hitting at full strength in 1km. Least to say lasers have the power of close combat weapons at a relative distance to the target and players who uses cool shot gets to deal 40 damage from 1km when that's the power output of close range.

UAC makes a hick up where 1 of 2 shots is delayed and balanced around based on hard point limitation that to gain an alpha build who is competitive you won't have the space for any other weapon than the UAC.

Target who can't see the attacker at 1km isn't going to be taking any evasion. Heat been the holy grail for the cauldron but in this case heat is irrelevant since override let's them get away with overheating builds. Bigger mech with higher amount of structure gets to override for longer. That's why Override need to be an automatic time limited action. The override happens as the mech sustain too long at 90% heat that the mech benefits from the energy as it overdrive. Overdrive will instead be a mechanic where players have to work to unlock the override by preserving heat above 90% An engine destruction is imminent death. For too long have players cheated the game by using overdrive.

[Armsracer]

The thing about sustained damage builds is they only do well when the enemy can't get to cover. You have to consistently fire at the targets. So you pretty much have to flank the enemy and get behind their cover.

[Sjorpha]

It's extremely hard to make bracket builds competitive in this type of game.

One way would be to significantly reduce time to kill, such that there is no real advantage of shooting many weapons at once. This is how some other FPS games are, when you can kill someone with a couple shots it's competitive to carry a sniper rifle AND a pistol rather than two pistols or a more powerful rifle.

Another way would be to restrict how many weapons you CAN shoot at once, like ghost heat but much more restrictive. If you can only effectively leverage two ERLLs at long range it would make sense to carry some closer range weapons along with it rather than boat 5-6 ERLLs as we do now. Once again compare to other FPS games where you can only actually shoot one gun at a time, and because of that it's competitive to carry different guns rather than several similar ones.

If you're not willing to do this type of drastic things, I don't think it's possible to make bracket builds good. You will always benefit from specialising at a specific range.

[kalashnikity]

Real answer, introduce infantry/tanks/aerospace and mixed loadouts will be logical and useful.

[lazorbeamz]

There would need to be a rule that only allows using one weapon bracket at a time with a significant cooldown when switching to another weapon bracket.
Like a worse ghost heat rule.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 01 June 2022 - 07:04 PM.

[foamyesque]

Sjorpha, on 01 June 2022 - 09:17 AM, said:

If you're not willing to do this type of drastic things, I don't think it's possible to make bracket builds good. You will always benefit from specialising at a specific range.

That's not necessarily true -- having a long range option on a primarily short-range mech can be very valuable. Between normal heat and ghost heat, you aren't trading as poorly with a ranged specialist as it might seem -- and you will definitely be trading better than you would if you had no guns whatsoever, because then they can expose freely and just go ham. Even small amounts of counterfire have useful suppressive effects well beyond the actual damage dealt.

You can also, because its so much lighter and cooler, generally cram a fairly substantial up-close-and-personal armament onto a longer-ranged machine without cutting too drastically into its primary effectiveness, particularly if it isn't competing for hardpoint slots; lasers on an LRM machine being the classic example.

The goal in either case isn't so much to win against a pure build -- though it's easier against the ranged ones than the brawlers, generally, b/c of how ghost heat's currently structured -- but to make sure you can contribute instead of getting handcuffed; the more people someone has to pay attention to the harder it is for them to pick their favourable engagements and bully people.

So, for example, the Hunchie IIC-A I run carries a subset of ERSLs in addition to its primary quad ERLL armament. They add a ton and a half that could, in theory, be another sink or a tarcomp, but they give me way more ability to punch people who try closing on me or to sustain pressure while the big guns are cycling or I'm heat-capped.

Or, in the other direction, I have a Charger 1A1 that, at first, I tried running with the full-on 7 ER small laser loadout, but I found it performed much, much better when I traded out two of them for ERPPCs into a 5 ERSL/2 ERPPC setup. It meant I could counterfire snipers and frontload damage upclose, and I still have the pile of ERSLs for murdering people in CQC. The added utility of the big guns massively outweighed the simple raw DPS of having two more small lasers.

[caravann]

My experience is = You expose yourself and your location.
Of course people shooting at the target in theory make it harder to pick
but even in animal kingdom a prey is picked from a mass of targets.
When you fire an ER large laser you going to be the number one and your own ER laser is for defense only.
There's no sharing targets and dividing their attention and only work on teams with no communication.
You have an ER laser to show them that distance doesn't make them safe and they can't say how many lasers you stacked without a full scan. When they poke around the corner your defense is to make sure they have to reposition. Every time they poke the corner you give them the lesson over again until they get bored of being shot at.

[Sunstruck]

I've done well with a kind of modded standard king crab loadout, 2xac20 a lrm15 and a erppc or large laser, I also have an archer with lrms, srms and streaks that can do well. But you have to be a good pilot, because everything becomes a target long med and short. But you can work on the long range weapons first on the way to the enemy with the team then when short range comes into play you can use that. Certain maps you'll be at a disadvantage like usual but you just gotta decide to have fun without using meta.