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Skill Tree Feedback - Post-May-2022 Patch


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#21 Heavy Money

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 10:50 AM

View PostGoggles Paesano, on 24 May 2022 - 09:55 PM, said:

I like the looks of the new skill tree. It would be great when doing a brand new Mech.

On the other hand, Now I have to figure out how I had the old skill tree on my Mechs set up. I have to figure out what I had picked that I actually wanted and what was filler. I may even have to play half skilled Mechs a few times to try to figure out what I need. I have to do this 205 times! I all ready have a full time job. I might be back in action before winter.

Right now, I'm looking at redoing my skill trees like doing the yard work... something I don't want to do and will try to push it off as long as I can. Other then that, its great!


Its not very complicated:

1) Pick mech
2) Click at the bottom for range and heat. Maybe CD and velo depending on weapons.
3) Take all armor and structure.
4) Take all coolrun
5) Take double coolshot
6) Take ECM if you have it.
7) Remaining points go into kinetic burst+speed tweak or seismic depending or both depending on what you have left.

Should be ~30seconds per mech. Just do it before you drop.

Edited by Heavy Money, 25 May 2022 - 10:50 AM.


#22 Escef

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 11:22 AM

View PostHeavy Money, on 25 May 2022 - 10:50 AM, said:


Its not very complicated:

1) Pick mech
2) Click at the bottom for range and heat. Maybe CD and velo depending on weapons.
3) Take all armor and structure.
4) Take all coolrun
5) Take double coolshot
6) Take ECM if you have it.
7) Remaining points go into kinetic burst+speed tweak or seismic depending or both depending on what you have left.

Should be ~30seconds per mech. Just do it before you drop.


I favor speed tweak, seismic, and radar dep over structure. I'd rather buff the stuff that keeps me from being shot over the stuff that lets me get shot more after I've already been shot a lot.

Edited by Escef, 25 May 2022 - 11:22 AM.


#23 ShiverMeRivets

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 11:38 AM

The number of skill points should be reduced to 70, or even 60.

With 90 points it is too easy to max out all the really valuable skills and I find that the last 20 points are just “what should I do with these?”. Therefore almost all my mechs get the same skill distribution. There is only a small difference between weight classes (example: assaults take structure and don’t take speed tweak, lights don’t take structure and do take speed tweak), and all ballistic mechs don’t need cooling.

Since I can easily maximize all the heat management skills without sacrificing anything important, the new skill tree is a buff to laser vomit builds.

#24 Escef

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 12:08 PM

View PostShiverMeRivets, on 25 May 2022 - 11:38 AM, said:

Since I can easily maximize all the heat management skills without sacrificing anything important, the new skill tree is a buff to laser vomit builds.


It's an across the board buff. On cool running ballistic builds, you can throw SP at range and cooldown. Those AC2 boats are going to be able to hammer the pulp out of anyone they catch out of position more than ever.

That said, the question becomes if there is a need to buff or nerf anything. Time will tell.

#25 Reverend Flashback

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 01:42 PM

Esprit de Corps@ 40% cooldown with 4 Ac2s:
"Well, finally someone gave me an assault rifle." Laughs manically.

#26 0111101

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Posted 25 May 2022 - 05:21 PM

Amazed no one has pointed out how the old mech mastery system worked. You put Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor modules on your mech as soon as you could afford them, and things like cooling and mobility were baked into the mastery system.

The complaint back then was how expensive those modules were. 3 million apiece if I'm remembering right, and the other big complaint was forgetting which mech (or mechs) you had the few modules you owned equipped on.

The old skill tree taxed you for taking upgrades that you used to be able to expect on all your mechs. The new skill tree lets you pick what you want, for the most part.

So I ask: how is it that things which used to be innate are OP now?

Relative to the old-old system there's still an 8 node tax to reach your 5 Speed Tweak nodes, 5 tax nodes for your 2 Seismic Sensor nodes, and another 5 tax nodes to unlock your 5 Radar Deprivation nodes (plus another 2 nodes to "upgrade" your ECM... in order to make it work as well as it did before it was nerfed.) The new-old system was even worse about making you take junk nodes to reach the stuff you wanted.

#27 SirNotlag

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 06:13 AM

View Post0111101, on 25 May 2022 - 05:21 PM, said:

Amazed no one has pointed out how the old mech mastery system worked. You put Radar Deprivation and Seismic Sensor modules on your mech as soon as you could afford them, and things like cooling and mobility were baked into the mastery system.

The complaint back then was how expensive those modules were. 3 million apiece if I'm remembering right, and the other big complaint was forgetting which mech (or mechs) you had the few modules you owned equipped on.

The old skill tree taxed you for taking upgrades that you used to be able to expect on all your mechs. The new skill tree lets you pick what you want, for the most part.

So I ask: how is it that things which used to be innate are OP now?

Relative to the old-old system there's still an 8 node tax to reach your 5 Speed Tweak nodes, 5 tax nodes for your 2 Seismic Sensor nodes, and another 5 tax nodes to unlock your 5 Radar Deprivation nodes (plus another 2 nodes to "upgrade" your ECM... in order to make it work as well as it did before it was nerfed.) The new-old system was even worse about making you take junk nodes to reach the stuff you wanted.


I think people are complaining about "OP" stuff because they like complaining. The assault players claim they are dying faster but as a light and medium pilot I've been able to put more nodes towards armour structure and gotten speed tweak on all my mechs and i have found my survivability has increased.

#28 panzer1b

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 07:36 AM

Generally speaking i am way more for what was done then againt. The best part is that there are way less "useless" skills that have to be taken, and i can actually focus on whats truly useful to me. That, and i think they balanced it pretty well by locking some of the more "desireable" things like radar derp, speed tweak, ect behind nodes that while not useless, id not normally take so there is a bit of a incentive to not necessarily shove seismik+speed tweak+radar derp on every single mech (even though for me 100% radar derp is not a option but a necessity as its a nice "screw you" to the lermers and anyone whos relying on a lock to guess when and where ill poke out of cover for follow up attacks.

Many previously hard to get nodes are now stupidly low cost to obtain like the "essential" (for ballistics/missiles) ammo nodes and velocity is extremely easy to get with negligible sacrifice, same for laser duration which previously required quite a few worthless cooldown nodes that do jack squat for vomit mechs that rely on single exposure alpha damage (and the few staredown "DPS" vomit mechs with pure LPLs are a joke vs dakka).

That said, one downside i do see is that it does permit more optimization, to the point that i can easily get 100% heat+range, 100% radar derp, seismik, ECM, las-duration, and all im left with is a rather simple choice of either 100% speed tweak with ~75% of the survival nodes, or 100% survival with 50% speed tweak which isnt really much of a sacrifice. That doesnt really feel like a "give or take" choice, its more of a "get everything choice (at least for laser vomit builds which dont need anything but heat+range+duration, and armor is sorta needed on every mech).

Its pretty clear post skill tree patch that there is alot of "filler" in the skills that frankly no decent player is going to bother using, things like fast startup (anyone whos playing T1 level has override on anyway), gyros (balliustic shake isnt that big a deal, it gonna mess with snipers regardless of skill or not, and its gonna be irrelevant at shorter range anyways where you just point and click). The old tree at least made people choose to take some of the filler since there was no way to avoid it. Before, it was generally a good deal of the offensive tree on EVERY mech, and if i wanted radar derp+ECM, all i had left was the ability to get half the OPs tree and a couple token armor nodes. Speed tweak was completely off the table (unless i wanted no armor and ignored the OPs tree), and well i never even bothered thinking about things like JJs (they arent really a big deal now eiither as id rather have more offense then situational JJ boost if the mech even has the option to run JJs), or the consumable tree (i generally dont like to run consumables as they feel cheap and i do ok enough without spamming arty as a crutch, i only carry a single UAV on my QP mechs, and bring arty once in a blue moon when im in a group or something, that or FP back in the good old days when people still played it and it only had the classic attack generator maps on it).

I still say its way better then it was, but there is that drawback that skilling a mech nolonger feels like its give or take but rather a choice of which one skill you want to give up some of rather then before. Now, if i had 100 skill nodes i could literally have EVERY mech i play carry 100% of all the skills i deem useful in non niche circumstances. Before, id need at least 150 nodes to truly obtain evetything i wanted to obtain as all the truly desired things were locked at or near the bottom of rather large and complex trees filled with tons of junk i couldnt care less for. Its an improvement in the "fun aspect", but its worse from a choices aspect as there really arent much if any sacrifices i have to make to obtain every one of the truly desired skills, in my case: radar derp, speed tweak, heat/cooldown (only pick 1 depending on if energy or dakka), and seismik.

#29 foamyesque

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 12:08 PM

Yeah, I'm finding that on basically every mech I'm moving things like shock absorption, reinforced casing, etc into guaranteeing double seismic & 100% radar deprivation. Radar dep & target decay may need a rebalance to make 100% RD impossible on everything except mechs quirked for it, I think; it's a very powerful thing to have, and not just against missile machines, and right now it's very easy to get. And the sensor range skills en-route aren't at all bad ones to have either, especially with how much long-range firepower's out there now.

#30 Nesutizale

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 02:19 PM

View Postw0qj, on 24 May 2022 - 03:51 PM, said:

Or MWO can replace filler nodes (Hard Brake, Shock Absorption, etc.) with New Skills !!

eg:
a) Overload Attack (+5% Damage and +3% Heat Gen and + 10% Overheat Damage ==> Enemy Light/Medium mechs with Flamers can make tactical contribution!

b ) Flanking Attack (+5% Damage when attacking enemy from sides or behind)
etc.


Overload -> Capacitators in future tech. Ok only for PPCs but its pretty much the same function that you could extend to other stuff.

Flanking Attacks -> Personaly...no. I don't think that fits at all.

I think something else that could be done is something like make those "fillers" more usefull by, for example, increase fall damage to make shock absorbtion more interesting.

Edited by Nesutizale, 26 May 2022 - 02:19 PM.


#31 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 02:22 PM

cooldown ups your DPS significantly. combine with coolshot. worth more than any other tree. add mech quirks. average match is over 1-3 mins faster now due to DPS increases.

Edited by Corvus Antaka, 26 May 2022 - 02:22 PM.


#32 Nesutizale

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 03:16 PM

Sometimes I wonder of skills lower in the tree should get more expansive so that you can max out a tree, no problem but you will then just focus a lot of your sources on that one part.

Sure makeing the skilltree longer could with less effect per point spend can also work but I think would make the tree way to large.

#33 w0qj

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 04:11 PM

+1
Diminishing Returns for activating each successive Skill Node for the same skill !
Encourages players to use other skill trees more... instead of stampeding/boating Skill Trees...

(Think Lord Nothing also mentioned this idea in another forum thread also).


View PostNesutizale, on 26 May 2022 - 03:16 PM, said:

Sometimes I wonder of skills lower in the tree should get more expansive so that you can max out a tree, no problem but you will then just focus a lot of your sources on that one part.

Sure makeing the skilltree longer could with less effect per point spend can also work but I think would make the tree way to large.


#34 Reverend Flashback

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 04:19 PM

View Postw0qj, on 26 May 2022 - 04:11 PM, said:

+1
Diminishing Returns for activating each successive Skill Node for the same skill !
Encourages players to use other skill trees more... instead of stampeding/boating Skill Trees...

(Think Lord Nothing also mentioned this idea in another forum thread also).


I would still max out everything firepower and survival related.
Even with dimishing returns this would be better than a bunch of skills that do nothing worthwhile for my build.

#35 foamyesque

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Posted 26 May 2022 - 06:31 PM

View PostReverend Flashback, on 26 May 2022 - 04:19 PM, said:

I would still max out everything firepower and survival related.
Even with dimishing returns this would be better than a bunch of skills that do nothing worthwhile for my build.


It's weird because there are three major subtractive skill trees -- cooldown, heatgen, and radar deprivation -- where you actually get increased rewards per node the further you venture into them. The node that gets you from 0% to 20% radar deprivation is basically worthless. The one that gets you from 80% to 100% is really valuable. Same applies to a lesser extent to cooldown/heatgen, particularly if the mech already has strong quirks in that regard (e.g. 1A1 Charger, various post-quirk-pass lights).





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