77 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Curccu, on 13 June 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

Because comp caliber people know how to evade one silly alpha and then laugh to that opponent and kill them easily because they got no weapons left.
Heck just do some JJ juggle and there is great chance that hit doesn't register almost at all.

So, you're saying you never get hit?

[Curccu]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 12:41 PM, said:

So, you're saying you never get hit?

By rocket launchers? Well very rarely.

[Escef]

Curccu, on 13 June 2022 - 09:15 PM, said:

By rocket launchers? Well very rarely.

If you are trying to tell me that top tier competitive players couldn't make an all RL 12-man seem broken good, I don't know what to tell you. Some of those guys could make a Standard 400, Stealth Armor, ERSL boat Atlas K3 seem broken.

Dead serious, with a little practice and coordination, I bet they could use fast, mid-size missilers with a few backup lasers, combined with pack tactics, and just rip people apart. (Hell, I was able to use an Assassin with 50 rockets and a pair of SNPPCs to gut a Warhawk from behind with a single alpha. I'm fairly mediocre, what top tier guys could pull would be obscene.)

My point is that what top tier competitive players are capable of is not necessarily the best criteria for determining if something is balanced or not. Hell, even mediocre players will do quite well after a few matches if you put them into a 12-man and force them to coordinate. As the expression goes, teamwork is OP. Top tier players in random PUG matches often post great numbers, but that doesn't make them an asset. (Once saw a top tier player get well over 2k damage in a PUG drop. Sounds impressive until you realize he was on the losing team, largely because this top tier player was damage farming instead of going for kills.)

The only "problem" I see with rocket launchers is that they work opposite of how most matches in this game unfold. They reward huge, upfront damage that leaves you with little to no ability to follow up. Most matches involve just about everyone on both teams firing all of their weapons multiple times, with kills scored as the result of multiple exchanges of fire. Rockets bring the potential to cripple or kill even a large mech with a single volley, which normally can only be done by meme builds like the Dire Star or Giga Drill.

In other words, rockets are very unorthodox weapons in MWO, bringing with them the kind of play more common in other shooter games. I don't have a problem with this. Hell, long before rocket launchers were a thing in MWO, I was using a 4xERML, 6xSRM6 Mad Dog to alpha-gut other heavies from behind. It's glorious fun when it works. (It also was an alpha of 100 back in the day, higher than many assaults. It's a little lower now, but not by much.)

All of the suggestions I'm seeing for "fixing" rocket launchers all try to take what is unique about the weapon away, and force it into the same play paradigm as the other weapons in the game. I don't see that as a positive thing. Now, if someone suggested something that could make the weapon more popular without ruining what's unique about it, I might be able to get behind the idea. But if anyone has suggested this I've missed it. All the suggestions I've seen basically just turn them into yet another direct-fire, unguided missile system. The Inner Sphere already has SRMs and MRMs for that, do we really need yet another?

Edited by Escef, 13 June 2022 - 10:06 PM.

[Curccu]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 10:02 PM, said:

If you are trying to tell me that top tier competitive players couldn't make an all RL 12-man seem broken good, I don't know what to tell you. Some of those guys could make a Standard 400, Stealth Armor, ERSL boat Atlas K3 seem broken.

Against whom? potatoes sure, against other same tier comp players no they cannot.

[Kanil]

Curccu, on 13 June 2022 - 10:51 PM, said:

Against whom? potatoes sure, against other same tier comp players no they cannot.

Yeaaaaaaaah, That 50 rocket Assassin is only barely coring out a Warhawk assuming all your missiles hit the RCT, and with the rocket's minimum range, and obnoxious spread you're not hitting the RCT with all 50. That's even assuming you can get behind your opponent in the first place, which becomes less likely the higher your opponent's skill level.

If you can't get a back shot, and accounting for spread, you're maybe stripping half their armor, are are now left fighting them with two PPCs vs their four -- and that's the good outcome where you don't miss any of your rockets.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 10:02 PM, said:

All of the suggestions I'm seeing for "fixing" rocket launchers all try to take what is unique about the weapon away, and force it into the same play paradigm as the other weapons in the game. I don't see that as a positive thing. Now, if someone suggested something that could make the weapon more popular without ruining what's unique about it, I might be able to get behind the idea. But if anyone has suggested this I've missed it. All the suggestions I've seen basically just turn them into yet another direct-fire, unguided missile system. The Inner Sphere already has SRMs and MRMs for that, do we really need yet another?

one of the other ideas was to make it fire single rockets with little or no spread, a fast cd, and a higher damage per rocket. this would change would replace one niche (one that didn't work out very well in the live game and relegated the weapon to meme status), with another. fast damage dump is still possible though its spread out over a second or so. small salvos of 2/3/4 could reduce the total dump time. even doing something like make it full dump stream launched (ala clan lerms but without guidance) would enable some buffs. you could tighten the stream or up the damage.

i do agree that the salvo fire, as much as i think it would work, would make this too much like the other dumbfire missile options. however thats true for every missile and is just how missiles work. i could accept that if the weapon had some legs. it also has a the endorsement of a lot of notable players. salvos as a 3-damage weapon also creates parity with the atms. another issue i do have with clusters is that if every weapon does a 5-missile cluster, there is no differentiating the different sizes other than being more ammo. 2/3/4 salvos kind of address that, but i dont really see much support for that complexity. all would have 5 salvos. the rl10 would fire too much like an srm2 so maybe stream fire to differentiate.

one niche i wanted to open up to be able to use it more as a supplemental damage weapon, something you cycle through rather than dumping all at once. srm2s are the lightest option for that, at 1.5t and 2 slots at minimum including ammo. you want something that is not quite srm2 but gives you more legs than an rl10/15 as a single shot. the cauldron solution at least addresses this. a snub+4rl10 locust 3s becomes more viable and is no longer in the shadow of the similar locust 1m.

this thread in particular started as extra salvos with nodes. another thing it fixes is rocket launcher quirks. some mechs have rl hsl quirks that seem a bit silly. so you can fire an extra rocket launcher without overheat, once. this case swapping those for extra salvo quirks would be a lot better, especially coupled with the nodes. quirks would add a 4th salvo. the extra salvos would not change the weapon in any other way.

im not sure clinging to a failed niche is the right choice for this weapon. these either change the niche, supplement the niche, or boost the overall viability of the weapon at expense of the niche. anything that lets you use it as something other than a poker table in your mech hanger.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 14 June 2022 - 11:30 AM, said:

one of the other ideas was to make it fire single rockets with little or no spread, a fast cd, and a higher damage per rocket. this would change would replace one niche

This is still my preference, it worked well for Mechwarrior 4 mods, why not here. The only caveat is that it should be easier to add ammo just like it was in MW4.

[Escef]

Kanil, on 13 June 2022 - 11:31 PM, said:

Yeaaaaaaaah, That 50 rocket Assassin is only barely coring out a Warhawk assuming all your missiles hit the RCT, and with the rocket's minimum range, and obnoxious spread you're not hitting the RCT with all 50. That's even assuming you can get behind your opponent in the first place, which becomes less likely the higher your opponent's skill level.

If you can't get a back shot, and accounting for spread, you're maybe stripping half their armor, are are now left fighting them with two PPCs vs their four -- and that's the good outcome where you don't miss any of your rockets.

[Kanil]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that there's been a couple balance patches in the last four years.

The recent skill tree revamp in particular has given everyone more internal structure -- a Warhawk's got like 95 CT structure these days, which means your 100 damage really doesn't cover it by much, and his paper doll sure suggests a few of your rockets hit his rear side torsos...

Comp tier players can certainly humiliate bads with rocket launchers, but I'm still agreeing with Curccu that they wouldn't have much success with them against players of similar skill.

Edited by Kanil, 15 June 2022 - 03:42 PM.

[Escef]

Kanil, on 15 June 2022 - 03:41 PM, said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that there's been a couple balance patches in the last four years.

The recent skill tree revamp in particular has given everyone more internal structure -- a Warhawk's got like 95 CT structure these days, which means your 100 damage really doesn't cover it by much, and his paper doll sure suggests a few of your rockets hit his rear side torsos...

Comp tier players can certainly humiliate bads with rocket launchers, but I'm still agreeing with Curccu that they wouldn't have much success with them against players of similar skill.

Move the goal posts some more, dude.

I'm positively mediocre, if I can make them do work, anyone can. No one wants to bother because they require a very different playstyle than every other weapon in the game.

Edited by Escef, 15 June 2022 - 04:22 PM.

[LordNothing]

if it was that easy to make it work, then why don't you see more of them on the battlefield? surely a winning strat would be parroted. you see plenty of low skill players blow themselves up trying to emulate the pro vomit meta. ive seen rocket launchers maybe twice in my targeting data in the last year, and my r button is on a hair trigger.,.

a few kills, and i mean a few, isnt really a good sample size. but i really doubt its a hidden gem.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 15 June 2022 - 04:36 PM, said:

if it was that easy to make it work, then why don't you see more of them on the battlefield? surely a winning strat would be parroted. you see plenty of low skill players blow themselves up trying to emulate the pro vomit meta. ive seen rocket launchers maybe twice in my targeting data in the last year, and my r button is on a hair trigger.,.

a few kills, and i mean a few, isnt really a good sample size. but i really doubt its a hidden gem.

High risk, high reward. This player base is very risk averse. And, as I've already said several times, and you shall likely once more ignore, it is not a playstyle that that meshes with the standard.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 15 June 2022 - 04:49 PM, said:

High risk, high reward. This player base is very risk averse. And, as I've already said several times, and you shall likely once more ignore, it is not a playstyle that that meshes with the standard.

id argue that taking backplates of weak opponents with bad situational awareness isn't exactly high risk. the risk is using an unreliable weapon that only gives you one shot at glory, failing, and then depriving your team of an effective fighting robot. especially when there are alternatives that can do the same thing, repeatedly, at less cost.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 June 2022 - 05:48 PM.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 15 June 2022 - 05:47 PM, said:

id argue that taking backplates of weak opponents with bad situational awareness isn't exactly high risk. the risk is using an unreliable weapon that only gives you one shot at glory, failing, and then depriving your team of an effective fighting robot. especially when there are alternatives that can do the same thing, repeatedly, at less cost.

So, it isn't high risk, except that it is? Sure, why the f*** not? GTFO with that foolishness.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 15 June 2022 - 05:52 PM, said:

So, it isn't high risk, except that it is? Sure, why the f*** not? GTFO with that foolishness.

the first part aint, the second part is a self imposed craps shoot. by taking a rl, you have shot yourself in the foot deliberately.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 June 2022 - 06:31 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 15 June 2022 - 04:49 PM, said:

High risk, high reward. This player base is very risk averse. And, as I've already said several times, and you shall likely once more ignore, it is not a playstyle that that meshes with the standard.

Risk averse and the reward just not being worth the risk are important distinctions to make. Just wanna throw that out there. For the most part, rockets just aren't worth the investment in tonnage/space because the risk just outweighs the reward.

That's even ignoring how one shot weapons will always be gimmicky in a game like this. This game is meant to have a higher than normal TTK so anything like Dire Stars or rocket boats while good at creating some solid clips for things like youtube, should never really be a seriously viable option. However, the dire star just leverages a boat load of useful weapons, rockets are only useful for this currently, that should suggest how they are implemented probably does not mix well with what I would say is one of the core tenants of the game.

There are plenty of gaps rockets could fill because there are still plenty of gaps with weapons in providing more variety of options for loadouts, with missiles feeling the most dearth in regards to options because of how much overlap exists between the current weapons (rocket launchers sort of fall into this category since they are similar to SRMs/MRMs but just lighter because they are one-shots).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 June 2022 - 08:32 AM.

[caravann]

Let's throw the hatchets and find another mech pilot who equally thrown away its weapons, left stranded with no fists.

This is why you must find an opponent who equally decide to play alone, shooting from medium range and has no support.

Quick play go fast with mechs to use tactics of information is ammunition. This is why self proclaimed achievements is a bad trait for quick play where faction teams show how they're able to win by using the information as ammunition.

Relatively speaking an example of winning or moments of missing a target is remembered for what risks were taken.

The clans knew that only glory can be achieved by taking foolish risks. Why take the risk when all you need is ammunition.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 15 June 2022 - 06:29 PM, said:

the first part aint, the second part is a self imposed craps shoot. by taking a rl, you have shot yourself in the foot deliberately.

Even one? I mean, look, RL50 is a whopping 3 tons. What are you gonna do with that? An SRM4 and a ton of ammo? Ok, congrats, 200 damage if all of it hits. Default cooldown of 3 seconds. That's over a minute of sustained combat. Your mech may not even last that long in sustained combat. RL50 is half as much potential damage, but all at once.

Let's put this another way. I used to think this:



was a bad card. You sacrifice two mountains (resources used to play cards) as an alternate cost for a card that isn't even particularly impressive. Why would you do that? You're handicapping your long game... Then someone demonstrated to me that I was thinking about it all wrong, and they did so by destroying me soundly with the card. Because if you play it correctly, there is no long game. If you play it correctly, the game ends. Then and there. You just won. Not dissimilar to performing an Alpha with a Nova Prime in table top Battletech, do it right and you aren't shut down and vulnerable to your opponent's counter-attack, because your opponent is dead, and therefor incapable of counter-attack.

Do I think a 12-man of Assassins or similar mechs with RL50 and twin SNPPCs could tear apart another team? Oh, hells, yes. Hey, you've got a dozen Assassins swarming around, do you know which one is going to fire rockets at you and precisely when? Seriously, I think it's pretty safe to say we've all been on the receiving end of a pack of lights or fast mediums. It's confusing and frustrating, you're getting attacked from multiple angles. You may not even be certain how many of them are on you. And this hypothetical pack of Assassins has enough speed and firepower to practically come out of nowhere, murder someone, and pull out before receiving significant counter-fire.

Is it risky? Sure. What isn't risky? Now, look, I'm tired of fruitless arguments with whining little scrubs with no imagination. You want every weapon to function exactly the same, and should you get what you want you'll only whine about how all the weapons are too similar. I get it. As Mayor Quimby once said in an episode of The Simpsons, "You people are a bunch of fickle mush-heads!"

Edited by Escef, 16 June 2022 - 01:12 PM.

[Kanil]

Escef, on 15 June 2022 - 04:10 PM, said:

Move the goal posts some more, dude.

I'm positively mediocre, if I can make them do work, anyone can. No one wants to bother because they require a very different playstyle than every other weapon in the game.

I'm sorry that you consider me wanting to talk about the game how it is today and you wanting to talk about the game as it was four years ago as "moving the goalposts". Shall we start a thread about how Catapults don't deserve quirks because the K2 was good in 2012?

Also, you'll note that I already said "2% of the time they can one-shot in a way that isn't really conducive to a fun video game." You probably still can one shot a Warhawk today, as 100 is greater than 96, after all -- and that's before we consider critical hits, ammo explosions, and bads who just don't have max structure skills.

However more often, you'll find you didn't dump all your missiles into the CT, or you didn't roll the critical hits, or your opponent has structure skills and doesn't have CT ammo, or you couldn't get a proper angle on the CT, or you were slightly inside minimum range and didn't get full damage, or most problematically of all your opponent saw you coming and didn't give you a free backshot. The rocket launcher is always one shot, but it is only rarely one kill.

There is also the idea that a 1-to-1 trade doesn't give your team an advantage. Consider a pure rocket build, it runs up behind someone, one shots them, then can no longer contribute to the fight beyond spotting and damage sponging, basically turning the match into a 11vs11 and not really helping out that much. For non-pure rocket builds it becomes a lot murkier, you are less capable after you fire your rockets, but you still retain some ability to fight. As such your rockets have to damage your opponent's ability to fight more than it damages your own.

As you add all of these considerations together, the "high reward" becomes less and less and it stops being worth it.

[Escef]

Kanil, on 16 June 2022 - 01:12 PM, said:

I'm sorry ...

Oh, f***ing save it. You have no imagination, all you know is how to whine that this weapon doesn't function in a way that your mind can grasp. Got it. There's nothing for us to fight over.