247 replies to this topic

[Lusankya]

Sounds OK to me even though I really like that LGR+ERPPC combo, especially on the Dragon Slayer. If it doesn't work out you can always change it back or to something else.

[Sjorpha]

Yeah I like the idea.

[w0qj]

A preview of this PPC balance is the Snub Nose PPC balancing for 21-June-2022 patch:
https://mwomercs.com...2610-21june2022

Snub Nose PPC
+30% more damage (more splash and less pinpoint damage). New damage profile: 2.5 / 10 / 2.5
Reduced to 2x Snub Nose PPC without Ghost Heat penalty
pseudo -33% Heat (since 3x Snub Nose PPC ==> 2x Snub Nose PPC)

Therefore a lot more Light/Medium mechs can field 2x Snub Nose PPC,
effectively for more damage and less heat (dph). Good times!

[R Valentine]

If we re-link Lgauss, can we leave the damage at 10 and remove the charge?

[D A T A]

Big NO to increase in pinpoint damage, yes to heat and splash.

[Magnus Santini]

Navid A1, on 18 June 2022 - 08:48 PM, said:

Would you be ok if Light Gauss rifles were linked again with PPC family in their heat penalty group (like regular Gauss), IF it allows us to boost individual PPC type and Gauss rifles weapons on their own?

PPC: 10 damage increased to 11.5 damage, Penalty limit reduce from 3 to 2 with no penalty

ERPPC: 10 damage increased to 11 or 11.5 damage

PPC reasoning: Currently 3x PPC competes with 2x HPPC too much (and loses unless there are heavy quirks involved). Lower number of PPCs fired with no penalty allows us to further boost them to be decent in single or double PPC combos without stepping over HPPCs

ERPPC reasoning: Currently they are on a crutch of either LGR or huge quirks to compete against Clan ERPPC. Linking to LGR in heat penalty allows us to better boost ERPPCs themselves without also boosting a powerful combo so they are more viable on their own and on more mechs (including more medium mechs)

I only care about these two weapons. Your examples of the above nerf and buff do not seem to relate to the idea of pairing with gauss anything (which I do not do). Also, I run a couple mechs that use three PPCs if the quirk weather and I feel like brawling, or ERPPCs if it is a sniping day. Your example would disable 3x PPC mechs from brawling by making them ghost heat. Boosting the ERPPC damage by 10 or 15% is a non-factor because its damage is accuracy-based, and at brawl range (including under 90m) it cannot refire enough times for 10 or 15% damage boost to matter.
I did enjoy reading the discussion and it is nice that people think about all these things.

[Davegt27]

OP just do what you need to do if you think it will work

its hard to read minds but my guess is PGI delivered stats to the caldron
and in those stats the IS regular PPCs show they are hardly used

so naturally the caldron would want to boost the use the use IS regular PPCs

this is the mistake PGI has been making all these years, they are either trying to put out fires (gauss PPC used together) or they are trying to boost or nerf some aspect of the game

as a player I can care less how many time IS regular PPCs have been used I am just here to have fun
I don't care how many time so n so map has been used

my recommendation is focus on making the game fun
(I care about the stats but I don't want to care about the stats if that makes any sense)

[TheCaptainJZ]

I'm against any changes that increase PPFLD and thus decrease TTK.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Davegt27, on 19 June 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

its hard to read minds but my guess is PGI delivered stats to the caldron
and in those stats the IS regular PPCs show they are hardly used

so naturally the caldron would want to boost the use the use IS regular PPCs

In theory, they already boosted the use of IS PPCs... 3 without ghost heat and reduced minimum range penalty. Reducing them to 2 and giving the same minimum range treatment to Heavy PPCs means more use of Heavy PPCs, which are even rarer. (I was running 3 regular peeps instead of 2 heavies precisely because of minimum range.)

[Meep Meep]

I think if this is supposed to help with lights and mediums then lppc should get their slots reduced to 1 and weight reduced to 2.5 so that more mechs can field them without sacrificing too much. Maybe reduce them to 2 at a time before ghost heat but make the ghost heat for the third lppc mild and the fourth should hurt pretty badly and increase damage to 7.

Also as long as we have cauldron eyes on the thread how about reducing IS lmg weight to .25 so that they are easier to mount on light mechs? This would allow 2 lmg/half ton of ammo for a 1 ton cost and would mesh nicely with skirmish builds using medium lasers due to the new 360m lmg optimal.

[caravann]

Meep Meep, on 19 June 2022 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think if this is supposed to help with lights and mediums then lppc should get their slots reduced to 1 and weight reduced to 2.5 so that more mechs can field them without sacrificing too much. Maybe reduce them to 2 at a time before ghost heat but make the ghost heat for the third lppc mild and the fourth should hurt pretty badly and increase damage to 7.

Also as long as we have cauldron eyes on the thread how about reducing IS lmg weight to .25 so that they are easier to mount on light mechs? This would allow 2 lmg/half ton of ammo for a 1 ton cost and would mesh nicely with skirmish builds using medium lasers due to the new 360m lmg optimal.

changing tonnages creates a doppler effect on all mechs in the game where they all be affected by invalid tonnages. LPPC is strong PPFLD and a firestarter is able to carry multiple LPPC. The LPPC is strong enough that people hate it so much that they hunt down any mech using them. It's also used as a troll build to make people rage in the game as they go ravage toward the player using them, throwing down multiple artillery strikes as temper tantrum. That the lppc make lots of sound and light and fire in quick session make it able to be a RAC5 with infinite ammo who never jam. With a tonnage of 2 they be lighter and stronger than a medium laser and medium lasers are already weaker for being a TTK.

[Meep Meep]

Reducing lppc tonnage from 3 to 2.5 wouldn't invalidate any current fits since it would reduce weight not add. And dropping a half ton isn't going to magically allow for new uber fits as its only 1.5 tons less than the typical three lppc loadout. But it would certainly add flexibility onto already tight tonnage and slots for an extra sink or less shaving of armor etc or a bit more ammo etc. Same for slots. Three lppc also have a base dps of 5.5 which is less than a rac 2 let alone a rac 5. As to the damage increase that would be tied to applying ghost heat with three mounted instead of four. Seems a pretty safe change to me.

[confracto]

Meep Meep, on 19 June 2022 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think if this is supposed to help with lights and mediums then lppc should get their slots reduced to 1 and weight reduced to 2.5 so that more mechs can field them without sacrificing too much. Maybe reduce them to 2 at a time before ghost heat but make the ghost heat for the third lppc mild and the fourth should hurt pretty badly and increase damage to 7.

Also as long as we have cauldron eyes on the thread how about reducing IS lmg weight to .25 so that they are easier to mount on light mechs? This would allow 2 lmg/half ton of ammo for a 1 ton cost and would mesh nicely with skirmish builds using medium lasers due to the new 360m lmg optimal.

the problem with these kinds of changes is it affects what weapons can be placed where. Do you remember how long the civil war weapons update took? Back where there was a team of artists to do it?

I'm with TheCaptainJZ, and against anything that increases PPFLD. If I wanna play a shooter where I die instantly from a single shot from across the map, I'll play literally any other shooter.

[caravann]

Meep Meep, on 19 June 2022 - 09:49 PM, said:

Reducing lppc tonnage from 3 to 2.5 wouldn't invalidate any current fits since it would reduce weight not add. And dropping a half ton isn't going to magically allow for new uber fits as its only 1.5 tons less than the typical three lppc loadout. But it would certainly add flexibility onto already tight tonnage and slots for an extra sink or less shaving of armor etc or a bit more ammo etc. Same for slots. Three lppc also have a base dps of 5.5 which is less than a rac 2 let alone a rac 5. As to the damage increase that would be tied to applying ghost heat with three mounted instead of four. Seems a pretty safe change to me.

3 LPPC aren't able to cycle through the chain fire and need a cooldown quirk to work but the dps is very close to a RAC2 at 5.5 vs 6 . The total tonnage for a RAC2 is 9ton vs 9ton for 3 LPPC. The differences is that RAC2 is able to be stacked while the LPPC aren't as the ghost heat won't allow it and the increase of heat for each shot fired over time. In term of TTK the RAC2 wins if it doesn't jam too many times. The LPPC has the ability to work as pinpoint and with 3 LPPC the use of chain fire isn't needed as it doesn't exceed the allowed ghost heat limit. That's why the the use of 3 LPPC invalid it as a TTK since it doesn't need to work as one but it's very close to be compared to a single RAC2. In function the RAC2 provide too much expose to elements as it require preperation for each burst compared to LPPC who has no delay. That's why the LPPC only need a slight increase of cooldown reduction to be comparing with a RAC2. These changes can be made on the mech who uses 3 LPPC.
A mech who would benefit from it is FLEA-FA with the free tonnage of 9-10 It can store a RAC2 or a PPC+Light PPC. The PPC+LPPC deals 15 damage with the first shot and the differences in DPS changes over time to be equal of RAC2 but this is an example of how being able to pinpoint shots has advantage of avoiding taking damage as you won't have to scan the target.

[katoult]

Meep Meep, on 19 June 2022 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think if this is supposed to help with lights and mediums then lppc should get their slots reduced to 1 and weight reduced to 2.5 so that more mechs can field them without sacrificing too much.

That would just turn LPPC into MPL without duration.

Of course one might say that that is to what extent LPPC have replaced MPL already anyway.

[Seelenlos]

What ever you do, it should not happen that Urbies and Viper eagles (or any other builds) single shot-single point any other mechs!

See that like this:
in BT the Slots were for that weapon kind/type!
So a Mech had a PPC, LL and ML.
Lets say even they had these PERKS you gave them like Range, CoolDown and Heat for PPC, LaserTime for LL and Range for ML.
The players comes in, replace the LL and ML with a PPC and gets all The PERKS for 1x PPC for 3 PPCs which was not intended as in conan or so THE CAPABILITIES OF THE INTERNAL COMPUTER WAS THE PROBLEM OF THE WEAPONS!

(I know caps, but I have no time to cursive).

So, you make MWO more like Fortnite (which i never played) or CounterStrike.

Which also was never meaned by the Design of BT Roles.


----

But before you do all of this things, you should invest the programing time in the MatchMaker.

At the end, it is the competition-making which is a driver for MMOs, the more the MMO os PVP based.

That is the thrill, which anybody seeks in MWO.

Not the Hyperbolic Jumps and shoots in CS-like games, but a (still phantasmal) technically based MMO.
So If that should at all happens, you must let the player earn the SuperDuper Computers which gives them the 3x Perk for 3x PPC in Solaris and get that sponsored as long as they regularly invest in Solaris and or get it at Faction Play.

THIS gives the Meaning of earnings specialties something.

Maybe also the Meta-Builders are also more involved in Solaris and Faction play!

And the game realy need a PUG-Slot for pure IS vs Pure Clan Mechs for real training of PUGs ppl!!! (including me)

Edited by Seelenlos, 20 June 2022 - 04:47 AM.

[Glaive-]

To be honest I'd rather see the charge mechanic removed from all gauss rifles first (except the HGauss potentially).
It's not a fun mechanic (IMO), isn't "high skill", and really doesn't de-link gauss and PPC once you get the muscle memory down.

It feels like a weird crutch to balance guass+ppc that in practice is more annoying to deal with than effective. I'd rather other measures be taken to balance the combo.

[feeWAIVER]

I don't like the idea of removing gauss charge up time.
I don't think pop tarts should get a heat-free, insta-gauss from across the map.

I am okay with increasing PPC dmg as long as heat and cooldown scale with it.
I think ppcs should reward accuracy and punish misses.

[Meep Meep]

katoult, on 20 June 2022 - 01:12 AM, said:

That would just turn LPPC into MPL without duration.

Of course one might say that that is to what extent LPPC have replaced MPL already anyway.

Hard to replace mpl with lppc in most lights due to slot restrictions and the extra ton per lppc. Maybe functionally they are similar on mechs that can fit them with ease. I'd be happy with just reducing the slot requirement to one instead of two and leave them as is otherwise but I feel they underperform for the current three tons on lights vs just using medium or even large lasers.

[Meep Meep]

Case in point. The new ecm urbie was more or less made to use lppc or at least some form of ppc but using plain ole er lasers has worked far better for me. Not the same ppfld but certainly easier to at least apply some measure of damage vs the all or nothing of projectiles if you don't have the best aim. Plus its better vs other lights since its far easier to hit the legs with sweeping hitscan laser damage than tying to nail a zig zagging masc flea dodging full out with something that has travel time.

LPPC

Lasers