128 replies to this topic

[GoatHILL]

BS to all damage is useful.

Tell that to the teams with the 1000+ dmg lrm'r or the long ranger "sniper" when they lose 12-4. Btw the all damage is useful guys got none of the kills or maybe they got one of the beat up guys at the very end of the match.

Give me a guy that can aim and stay on target even with non-pinpoint weps over, the all damage is useful spaz shooting anything and everything that catches his eye.

[ScrapIron Prime]

The guy sandblasting people from the horizon with lurms is making it easier for his team members to get kills. His damage enables their kills, so it’s not useless.

Of course, I prefer sandblasting people from a lot closer in…

[lazorbeamz]

GoatHILL, on 23 July 2022 - 02:33 PM, said:

BS to all damage is useful.

Tell that to the teams with the 1000+ dmg lrm'r or the long ranger "sniper" when they lose 12-4. Btw the all damage is useful guys got none of the kills or maybe they got one of the beat up guys at the very end of the match.

Give me a guy that can aim and stay on target even with non-pinpoint weps over, the all damage is useful spaz shooting anything and everything that catches his eye.

I have never seen a person that is 100% pinpoint with accuracy so there is no argument about pinpoint weapons having no damage spread.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

CFC Conky, on 22 July 2022 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which light mechs can boat six snubs?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

it is literally 2lines below that, same post, same text. c'mon.. 2-5seconds of reading could have saved you 20-30seconds of posting ..
now, everybody grab your scout-100t mechs and let's see if we can keep the light&medium-% per match at 0.

well, at least the 100t-sniperlords and lrm-braveboys™ have more armor/structure to farm right now.
great times to play mwo. (yes, that also was sarcasm, if it wasn't clear enough )

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I will say this, as time has gone on, the snub nose buffs were definitely off the mark. At the range they play at, they are just easy mode. It eclipses AC20s, SRMs, and MLs handily and even some mid range require too much effort to bother with comparatively (MRMs, UAC10s). PUG queue is normally more rangy than your competitive matches, but they have descended into Snub Nose PPC spam pushes more as time has gone on, not less. The damage might have been fine if it wasn't for how heat efficient they are. I do think it has made me realize just how bad things at that range are though. MLs are just too hot for what they are, SRMs still are heavily dependent on the right hardpoints and even then they spread awfully (partially because you have to lead them so much your weapons won't converge on the correct range), and AC20s are just too heavy and bulky and the mechs that can carry two and an XL have awful mounts for them.

[PocketYoda]

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 July 2022 - 02:59 PM, said:

The guy sandblasting people from the horizon with lurms is making it easier for his team members to get kills. His damage enables their kills, so it’s not useless.

Of course, I prefer sandblasting people from a lot closer in…

LOL Sandblasting, it kinda is like that.

[Meep Meep]

Nomad Tech, on 23 July 2022 - 07:59 PM, said:

LOL Sandblasting, it kinda is like that.

It's quite effective too as long as you have enough tubes.

I've taken quite the shine to this beast. Set two groups of all launchers to chain fire then fire both at once to avoid ghost heat but still send a wall of missiles out.

BloodyAssLurms

Map dependent like all indirect fire weapons but if you get a non city map and reasonably decent team you can wreck face with it.

[Curccu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 July 2022 - 11:00 AM, said:

: Honestly the middle point explains it all, SNPPCs are just superior to MLs in almost everyway possible, so it shouldn't be shocking why they are so popular.

So basically does this mean that standard ML could use some buff? Standard ML is kinda rare thing to see since ERs came.

[lazorbeamz]

Curccu, on 24 July 2022 - 02:27 AM, said:

So basically does this mean that standard ML could use some buff? Standard ML is kinda rare thing to see since ERs came.

Noo no buffs to lasers this is going to produce power creep.
Instead nerf to PPC.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Curccu, on 24 July 2022 - 02:27 AM, said:

So basically does this mean that standard ML could use some buff? Standard ML is kinda rare thing to see since ERs came.

lazorbeamz, on 24 July 2022 - 02:47 AM, said:

Noo no buffs to lasers this is going to produce power creep.
Instead nerf to PPC.

^ This, the problem is we have been buffing things constantly so that weapons that used to feel strong no longer do. Heavy Gauss and UAC10s use to be a threat so much that they added screen shake to one and limited the ghost heat on the other. Now even with those I don't think they could honestly compete given their limitations.

Then you have the pulse, heavy, ER, vs standard lasers competition which has only gotten worse with Micros. There is too much overlap such that their is generally an objectively better for roles and the others just take a sideline.

Balance is just a bit of a mess right now, the heat dissipation change made years ago also didn't help in that regard (since it meant damage throughput was increased but armor/internals never got increased with it).

[GoatHILL]

Reduce the pinpoint to 7.5 increase the splash (3.75x2) for a total of 15.

Bring max range back to 540. This is a factor a lot of players are over looking that max range boost is really OP.

Problem solved Snubbs are still useful but not over the top.

[Nightbird]

GoatHILL, on 24 July 2022 - 02:13 PM, said:

Reduce the pinpoint to 7.5 increase the splash (3.75x2) for a total of 15.

Bring max range back to 540. This is a factor a lot of players are over looking that max range boost is really OP.

Problem solved Snubbs are still useful but not over the top.

We'll go back to seeing no snubs used, because 15 damage (useful) for 14 heat is a waste. People are seeing higher damage and match score from snubs because of the splash damage, but splash damage isn't useful unless you miss your target component a lot, and if you miss your shots that frequently TTK is still insanely high for this weapon.

I think 10+1.5+1.5 would be fine but any reduction in the pinpoint will relegate this weapon to the trash bin once again.

Edited by Nightbird, 24 July 2022 - 03:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 24 July 2022 - 03:36 PM, said:

We'll go back to seeing no snubs used, because 15 damage (useful) for 14 heat is a waste. People are seeing higher damage and match score from snubs because of the splash damage, but splash damage isn't useful unless you miss your target component a lot, and if you miss your shots that frequently TTK is still insanely high for this weapon.

I think 10+1.5+1.5 would be fine but any reduction in the pinpoint will relegate this weapon to the trash bin once again.

So if splash is not useful, why have it :thonk:

Splash is useful but let's not also be hyperbolic. 7 heat for 10 damage pinpoint damage will just see it relegated to the trash bin again. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was at 7 heat for 10 damage at one point and no one bothered because normal PPCs gave you twice the range for 1 ton and 2 heat or you ran LPLs which had a similar heat/damage profile, but again more range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 July 2022 - 03:44 PM.

[Nightbird]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 July 2022 - 03:40 PM, said:

So if splash is not useful, why have it :thonk:

To give more MS earnings for a weapon that is otherwise too inefficient to use for lighter mechs. It's stupid, the PSR system penalizes people who kill using too little damage, so people gravitate towards higher DPS spread damage everywhere weapons.

[YueFei]

Splash can be useful to negate shielding. Someone has a hurt CT and trying to use their LT to protect it? Smash them with 3xSNPPC and send 7.5 damage to their CT anyway, then duck away to avoid retaliation. The splash is not always "useless".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 24 July 2022 - 03:45 PM, said:

To give more MS earnings for a weapon that is otherwise too inefficient to use for lighter mechs. It's stupid, the PSR system penalizes people who kill using too little damage, so people gravitate towards higher DPS spread damage everywhere weapons.

I mean I don't disagree that it does incentivize damage saturation, but I don't think that is the sole reason people take it. Sure, it is too inefficient for most lights, but that isn't the only weight class either. I think this is just another situation where light mechs suffer honestly because of the sins of larger mechs (which itself is a problem with how large the tonnage disparity is between mechs and disparity between weapons).

I mean part of the reasons to take more DPS oriented weapons is just to be able to burn through mechs faster if you are actually more accurate, but that is a product of just living in PUG land and the game being 12v12 instead of something like 6v6 or 8v8.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 July 2022 - 03:52 PM.

[Nightbird]

YueFei, on 24 July 2022 - 03:49 PM, said:

Splash can be useful to negate shielding. Someone has a hurt CT and trying to use their LT to protect it? Smash them with 3xSNPPC and send 7.5 damage to their CT anyway, then duck away to avoid retaliation. The splash is not always "useless".

So between 10+2+2 or 8+3+3, both do 14 damage, which would you rather have? 8+3+3 right? To send more damage to CT via splash?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 July 2022 - 03:50 PM, said:

I mean I don't disagree that it does incentivize damage saturation, but I don't think that is the sole reason people take it. Sure, it is too inefficient for most lights, but that isn't the only weight class either. I think this is just another situation where light mechs suffer honestly because of the sins of larger mechs (which itself is a problem with how large the tonnage disparity is between mechs and disparity between weapons).

With the across the board assault buffs, I think we'll continue to see changes until the Cauldron "balances" lights into <1% in the queue lol.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 24 July 2022 - 03:50 PM, said:

So between 10+2+2 or 8+3+3, both do 14 damage, which would you rather have? 8+3+3 right? To send more damage to CT via splash?

I don't think anyone is arguing that pinpoint isnt better, just that the splash isn't worthless, it is damage and some damage is better than none.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 July 2022 - 03:53 PM.

[Nightbird]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 July 2022 - 03:52 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is arguing against pinpoint is better, just that the splash isn't worthless, it is damage and some damage is better than none.

The post you picked to argue with was me saying between 7.5+3.75+3.75 and 10+1.5+1.5, I would rather have the latter even if it is 2 less total damage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 24 July 2022 - 03:54 PM, said:

The post you picked to argue with was me saying between 7.5+3.75+3.75 and 10+1.5+1.5, I would rather have the latter even if it is 2 less total damage.

And I would agree, but I also don't think that the 10+1.5+1.5 is enough of a nerf honestly. 7 heat for 13 damage is still pretty potent, especially given ~77% of that damage is PPFLD.

I'd say keep the ratio, but reduce the damage just a touch: 9+2.25+2.25.

I hate over-nerfing like they did MGs, so just make small iterative nerfs. 1 point less pinpoint and 1.5 less damage overall. Maybe, just maybe kill the extra 90m of max range as well so instead 630m it matches up with all the other weapons at 270m which also reigns in the reach just a tad.



I'd also argue it may be time to up the time to wait before you can refire without triggering ghost heat. I think originally it was half a second, maybe up it to three quarters? Though tbh, I wouldn't really want to touch that unless a UI element can be displayed for that timer or have some AV to signal you are good to fire again because muscle memory is gonna be messed up trying to change that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 July 2022 - 04:08 PM.