141 replies to this topic

[Staude Coston]

BALLISTIC WEAPONS
IS Gauss Rifle:

• Reduced cooldown to 4.25 s (from 4.75 s)

( Clan Gauss cooldown 5 ?? )

IS puff continues

[Staude Coston]

DangerMouse53, on 19 July 2022 - 01:09 AM, said:

I have noticed some more close range matches lately.. Probably due to the Snub OP?..

the snub nose didn't need any change that was said 4 weeks ago what is already strong I do NOT need to make even stronger now it needs another 4 weeks to change this so 8 weeks this pull ****

[F37u5 Ea73r]

loving all the proposed changes! my 4G is going to be even NASTIER!! . Y'all are killing it! keep up the good work and thank you for bringing me back. also love the event que idea! whomever came up with that, deserves 5 gold stars and an XL400!

[Staude Coston]

HBK-GI

Increased Ballistic cooldown to -20% (from -10%

Increased Gauss Rifle cooldown to -30% (from -20%)

ges. 50% cooldown off Gauss


IS Gauss Rifle:

Reduced cooldown to 4.25 s (from 4.75 s)

HBK-GI shoots Gauss all 2,1 sec without skill Points

16x 0,75 off Cooldown 12% Skill Points


shoots Gauss all 1.8 sec


PERFEKTE Mech Ballance

Edited by Staude, 19 July 2022 - 05:26 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

Navid A1, on 18 July 2022 - 10:58 PM, said:

Regarding heavy and assault mechs... Unfortunately since we are stuck with large scale mechs, there are only two paths ahead.
- Doing a complete blanket nerf to everything... including heatsinks, weapons, etc. (affecting every mech in the game) so that having 10 times surface area would not catch every shot lobbed at general direction of the mech.
- Address the larger mechs specifically

Honestly, a blanket nerf to literally everything isn't such a bad idea. Power Creep has been a real thing for years now, and a reset every now and then can be healthy.

If you compare movement speed to weapons fire rate, we're taking two or three times the number of shots the game was intended to handle/allow during a clearing crossing, and heat capacity/dissipation has been increased to support it, as well as heat generation has been overall reduced with damage overall increased.

The net effect is a vastly increased volume of fire flying around the battlefield, and any one 'mech that catches a majority of it dissolves like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Also: what's the limitation preventing a 'mech rescale? Automobiles should be ankle-height, not coming halfway up the height of the pinky toe. 'Mechs are HUGE compared to what they're supposed to be (30 or 40 m, vs 10-15 m). Certain 'mechs, like the Executioner, or Jenner IIC, were upscaled artificially "to compensate for excessive maneuverability". They've lost their maneuverability with Engine Desync, but they're still stuck with their mammoth size.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 19 July 2022 - 04:13 AM.

[Staude Coston]

Also: what's the limitation preventing a 'mech rescale? Automobiles should be ankle-height, not coming halfway up the height of the pinky toe. 'Mechs are HUGE compared to what they're supposed to be (30 or 40 m, vs 10-15 m). Certain 'mechs, like the Executioner, or Jenner IIC, were upscaled artificially "to compensate for excessive maneuverability". They've lost their maneuverability with Engine Desync, but they're still stuck with their mammoth size.


That would have been the RIGHT

beginning Mechs by weight and volume relative to size Reworked

Before I edit the quirks!!!

[Staude Coston]

• Armor Hardening node value for mechs above 60 tons is changed to 1.8%.
  
• Skeletal Density node value for mechs above 60 tons is changed to 3.3%.

% increase is a puff for IS Mechs because they basically have higher armor

or another nerf for Clan Mechs

Well done go on sooooo

[L1f3H4ck]

Obligatory lurm complaint: 4J could use a launcher size upgrade

But I'll be busy with dakka, thx for the hunchie love and the Sunspider D looks extremely juicy all of a sudden.

[L1f3H4ck]

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 03:16 AM, said:

HBK-GI

Increased Ballistic cooldown to -20% (from -10%

Increased Gauss Rifle cooldown to -30% (from -20%)

ges. 50% cooldown off Gauss


IS Gauss Rifle:

Reduced cooldown to 4.25 s (from 4.75 s)

HBK-GI shoots Gauss all 2,1 sec without skill Points

16x 0,75 off Cooldown 12% Skill Points


shoots Gauss all 1.8 sec


PERFEKTE Mech Ballance

I actually like the approach of making certain mech op in a specific way, gives them character, and the GI was a box of fun the last time the Gauss was gigaquirked. And let's be real, one fast Gauss isn't going to shake the balance in the current state, but it might make it at least valid.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 18 July 2022 - 10:58 PM, said:

I know from the inaccuracy of your last JJ calculations chart that mat/stats isn't your main area of expertise, but I trust you know to how calculate averages. The MWO stats website have breakdowns by weight class, and you can easily see from the averages that lights are by far the worst class and assaults are the best class.

That you frame the size of assaults as somehow being a reason for needing buffs is beyond disingenuous, it's downright fraudulent. You just want to buff the most OP, top performing mechs in the game today.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Lots of MATH and Mechlab nonsense here:

I will remind you that I have preference for fast (light) snipers, so you know my possible bias.

Nightbird, on 18 July 2022 - 04:19 PM, said:

Glad to see OP lights finally nerfed to the ground!

Buffing the best weight class - Assaults - with a 80% increase in armor skill tree? Is the Cauldron giving up on maintaining even the appearance of trying to balance?

Absolutely! An increase of 18 health at most to an assault's component will definitely make assaults OP! (assuming you are actually willing to invest that much in survivability, which is not a good idea for snipers especially PPC/ Gauss)

In seriousness, the skill tree changes are in the right direction IMO since assaults suffer disproportionately in the survivability tree department (just as lights don’t get too much benefit either due to low armor). Just do the MATH on all the mechs and you will see what the Cauldron is getting at.

I have genuine issues in the scale of the buff, but I will get to that later.

C337Skymaster, on 18 July 2022 - 05:09 PM, said:

Holy IS Sniper Meta. 25% range boost to La Malinche? So 40% with skills, and who knows what (50%?) on energy weapons with a TC-8. So Gauss Sniping from 2870m, and ERLL from at least 2072, probably closer to 2200. That's literally drop-zone to drop-zone on Boreal Vault, and that's literally every open area on every QP map covered by the optimum range.

When's power creep gonna end?

Please find me a competitive La Malinche build pre July-2022 to back up your claim(*1). Also, there is a thing called “too much range” – because there is a limit to how many angles you can utilize range in any shooter, and a limit to how accurately you can even hit mechs at +1500m(*2), let alone target specific components.

You can have literally perfect aim, but keep missing due to unpredictable movements of human players at long range.

Actually I just re-read the patch notes again. The range quirks are actually still present before this patch – the quirks just buffed ALL weapons now to promote build variety. In addition, the quirks should buff ALL builds, not just sniper builds.

*1 I personally think the buffs are too much for different reasons, but we will see.

*2 You can’t hurt mechs at 2000m with 50% range boost on any ERLL, or 40% range boost on ERPPC, just do the MATH. It will generate hit indicators, but it just reveals your position rather than damage the mech.

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 08:40 PM, said:

Magnificent!

So all Assault 'Mechs are being boosted, obviously because being the most powerful class of 'Mechs in MWO was not enough!

• The Assault sniping is being boosted with the boosted Gauss Rifle stats (you do not see too many GRs on light and medium 'Mechs, but on heavies and many Assaults).
  
• Assault 'Mechs Armor hardening and Skeletal density boosted ....

Because the Assault class with its best K/D ratio, best MS ratio and the best W/L ratio really needed boosting!

You need to take a step back and think through what the changes actually do, instead of resorting to knee-jerk reactions.

IS Gauss sniping mainly buffs lights, mediums, and heavies (just look at Post #48 by Staude). Assaults normally don’t use IS gauss exclusively – they usually use it with something else. The change helps all Gauss builds.

Survival buffs mainly benefit assault short-range mechs. Why would you need the extra armor for snipers and peekers if you don’t use it properly? (and no, surviving an extra 2 to 5 seconds when overrun is not proper use of armor)

Really? What proof do you have that assaults are the best by a significant margin? Bare in mind Jarls formulae are outdated for over a year now – seems to me all classes are quite well balanced based on data I collected in my replays and my personal battle records (mediums are probably the worst class and assaults are the best, but line is very fine).

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 11:28 PM, said:

Those Assault boosts do not go only to "slower shorter range assaults". They go to all Assault 'Mechs - it's a blanket Assault 'Mechs boost.

Correction:
Those assault boosts do not go only to “slower shorter range assaults”. They go to all Assault ‘Mechs – provided they can use the extra armor.

martian, on 18 July 2022 - 11:40 PM, said:

You forgot to mention "... and having vastly bigger firepower and more armor total."

And having less agility and concealment to use said firepower and armor

Lockheed_, on 18 July 2022 - 11:10 PM, said:

Whenever the topic of lights being OP is brought up some will counter (and bring up a graph) that lights are the worst performing and picked class and assaults are still the best and I think it's a valid point. How come that assaults get blanket buffs while they are the best performing weight class? Shouldn't those blanket buffs go to lights mechs instead?

If you have a large enough dataset (temporally/ time-based in your example) than the evidence is very concrete. However, we can only really use data over a few months regarding Cauldron changes. Outdated evidence isn’t really going to prove anything. Best case is to use Mechlab math and experience the practicality of the builds in all real situations.

Cauldron specified that the builds are geared for QP – which is a good idea. We need to then look at FP and event queue (i.e. comp + solaris + fun sheninigans) and compare that to QP to balance all modes out.

In addition, for me, lights seem to feel like they are getting the most love out of any other class. I noticed a marked increase in light mech use in QP, and performance when looking at all my match results since 2021 – since I more commonly see exceptional performances (>500MS) with lights, and fewer weak performances (<100MS). OTOH, heavies and assaults are getting weaker generally, with less usage and generally worse performances.

This is good, because there was a weight class to performance imbalance in the past. Not too sure it exists to a significant degree now after the first wave of quirk passes...

Lockheed_, on 18 July 2022 - 11:23 PM, said:

I think seeing some actual stats would be really helpful!
There's really no reason why these stats should be secret anyway, especially in a time where the community is part of the balancing and future of the game.

Agreed

Navid A1, on 18 July 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

A lot of assault mech fan boys are still angry that light mechs can kill their big mechs and that they can't play turret simulator with no drawback... but this is a PvP... and a short range mech should have the upper hand.

I feel this mentality is due to Battletech veterans approaching MWO as if it were 2013 – when Battle Value and institutionally inferior lights were a thing.

But copying and pasting the full Battletech lore into a F2P MMO game just doesn’t work as we have seen. So we need to make concessions.

Also, I noticed a bizarre culture that assaults can only do long-range and slow, and lights can only do short-range and fast. Its weird because its completely untrue (see Executioner, Cougar, etc.). Only MechLab things that are factual now are:

Lighter weight class = Better agility + hitboxes, Worse armor + firepower.
Faster speed = Worse firepower.
Speed = JumpJets.
Lighter weight + Equal firepower = Better agility + hitboxes, Worse armor + speed.
Longer range = Worse alpha + DPS. (Unrelated to mech chassis)

Papa Varken, on 19 July 2022 - 12:14 AM, said:

The heavy/assault focus is just the cycle of adjustment finally beginning to work through. Not sure if it's enough yet, but at least its a start in the whole balance approach. For me, I would love to see the desync face palm be properly revised, lights and mediums increased their capability far more than any other class, even looking at the ones being introduced in the coming patch for the specified chassis.

If you significantly rolled back the engine desync, then there wouldn’t be much reason to use lights anymore.

Desync is unnecessary IF lights were balanced with lower battle value.

But battle value doesn’t work in a F2P MMO MW game – so lights need something else to justify their existence:

Extra agility through engine desync is the way to go.

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 03:16 AM, said:

HBK-GI

Increased Ballistic cooldown to -20% (from -10%

Increased Gauss Rifle cooldown to -30% (from -20%)

ges. 50% cooldown off Gauss


IS Gauss Rifle:

Reduced cooldown to 4.25 s (from 4.75 s)

HBK-GI shoots Gauss all 2,1 sec without skill Points

PERFEKTE Mech Ballance

I agree. HBK-GI with Gauss now has similar firepower and mobility (73km/h) to the following Clan mechs. (not going to go into detailed comparison, but GI’s PPC/ Gauss build is sort of similar to unquirked dual Clan Gauss - just do the MATH):

Sunspider-D (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Rifleman IIC-A (more powerful due to quirks and good chassis)
Mad Dog-C (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Hunchback IIC-C

Clan AC10s (not UAC10s) are also well-balanced versus HBK-GI, so double points!
Stormcrow
Hunchback IIC-C
Cougar
etc.

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 05:56 AM, said:

• Armor Hardening node value for mechs above 60 tons is changed to 1.8%.
  
• Skeletal Density node value for mechs above 60 tons is changed to 3.3%.

% increase is a puff for IS Mechs because they basically have higher armor




or another nerf for Clan Mechs

Well done go on sooooo

WTF? This benefits Clan mechs more than IS, because Clan heavies and assaults don’t necessarily have enough armor to perform their roles before. With this buff, you can give Clan assaults more armor if they need it.

C337Skymaster, on 19 July 2022 - 04:10 AM, said:

Honestly, a blanket nerf to literally everything isn't such a bad idea. Power Creep has been a real thing for years now, and a reset every now and then can be healthy.

If you compare movement speed to weapons fire rate, we're taking two or three times the number of shots the game was intended to handle/allow during a clearing crossing, and heat capacity/dissipation has been increased to support it, as well as heat generation has been overall reduced with damage overall increased.

The net effect is a vastly increased volume of fire flying around the battlefield, and any one 'mech that catches a majority of it dissolves like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Also: what's the limitation preventing a 'mech rescale? Automobiles should be ankle-height, not coming halfway up the height of the pinky toe. 'Mechs are HUGE compared to what they're supposed to be (30 or 40 m, vs 10-15 m). Certain 'mechs, like the Executioner, or Jenner IIC, were upscaled artificially "to compensate for excessive maneuverability". They've lost their maneuverability with Engine Desync, but they're still stuck with their mammoth size.

I accept your general reasoning, because your arguments make good sense. A few comments though:

Agree with power creep before Cauldron took over. However, apart from the Wolfhound MPL buff, which makes my eye twitch, Cauldron has basically just rebalanced all mechs according to some benchmarks.

While heat efficiency did essentially improve with buffs to heatsinks and the prevalence of DHS, mechs had always taken multiple shots when crossing open areas since the beta. I suppose that it feels even more punishing now, now that more people have gotten used to the game and are using optimal builds.

Limitation for mech rescale is PGI resources – Cauldron would love it, but have to make do with second bests.


Will make extra comments after another comment, because mine is already a wall of text!

[Staude Coston]

Dakkalistic, on 19 July 2022 - 06:45 AM, said:

I actually like the approach of making certain mech op in a specific way, gives them character, and the GI was a box of fun the last time the Gauss was gigaquirked. And let's be real, one fast Gauss isn't going to shake the balance in the current state, but it might make it at least valid.

one or two doesn't matter, that's not the point

how many Crusader or Centurion or Shadow Hack with 3 SNPPC were at one time to 8-12 on the field in FP

it's all about this

every time something is made too strong it's all the worse in Fp

But the best thing is that you are NOT interested as for FP

[Staude Coston]

Lots of MATH and Mechlab nonsense here:







I agree. HBK-GI with Gauss now has similar firepower and mobility (73km/h) to the following Clan mechs. (not going to go into detailed comparison, but GI’s PPC/ Gauss build is sort of similar to unquirked dual Clan Gauss - just do the MATH):

Sunspider-D (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Rifleman IIC-A (more powerful due to quirks and good chassis)
Mad Dog-C (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Hunchback IIC-C




what game are you talking about?

Sunspider-D ballistic MG ROF +20% that's all

and an example

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 07:10 AM, said:

Lots of MATH and Mechlab nonsense here:







I agree. HBK-GI with Gauss now has similar firepower and mobility (73km/h) to the following Clan mechs. (not going to go into detailed comparison, but GI’s PPC/ Gauss build is sort of similar to unquirked dual Clan Gauss - just do the MATH):

Sunspider-D (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Rifleman IIC-A (more powerful due to quirks and good chassis)
Mad Dog-C (more powerful due to big ballistics quirks)
Hunchback IIC-C




what game are you talking about?

Sunspider-D ballistic MG ROF +20% that's all

and an example

Can you even read?

HBK-GI:
Increased Ballistic cooldown to -20% (from -10%)
Increased Gauss Rifle cooldown to -30% (from -20%)

SNS-D:
Added 25% Ballistic velocity in SO8
Added -25% UAC Jam chance in SO8
Added -20% Ballistic cooldown in SO8

MDD-C:
Increased Ballistic cooldown to -10% in SO8 (from -5%)
Increased ammo per ton bonus for GAUSS, AC/LB/UAC 20 to +8, +18, +6, +24 in SO8 (from +5, +12, +4, +16)

Rifleman-IIC-A:
Range: 10%
Sensor Range: +100
Ballistic Cooldown: -10%
UAC-5 Cooldown: -5%

[Staude Coston]

Can you even read?

MDD-C:
Increased Ballistic cooldown to -10% in SO8 (from -5%)
Increased ammo per ton bonus for GAUSS, AC/LB/UAC 20 to +8, +18, +6, +24 in SO8 (from +5, +12, +4, +16)


the MDD-C already has -15% cooldown? in SO8

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 07:28 AM, said:

Can you even read?

MDD-C:
Increased Ballistic cooldown to -10% in SO8 (from -5%)
Increased ammo per ton bonus for GAUSS, AC/LB/UAC 20 to +8, +18, +6, +24 in SO8 (from +5, +12, +4, +16)


the MDD-C already has -15% cooldown? in SO8

Looks like you can't...

Sigh:

MDD-C:
Ballistic Cooldown: -10%
Ballistic Velocity: +20%

SO8:
Crit Chance Receiving: -15%
Ballistic Cooldown: -5% to 10%
Gauss Ammo: +5 to +8
Gauss Rifle Cooldown: -10%


MDD-C:
Gauss Cooldown: (5*(1-0.3))+0.75 = 4.25

HBK-GI:
Gauss Cooldown: (4.25*(1-0.5))+0.75 = 2.875

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 19 July 2022 - 07:36 AM.

[Staude Coston]

the MDD has now without the patch already

Ballistic Cooldown -15%
C.Gauss Cooldown -10% in SO8

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Staude, on 19 July 2022 - 07:38 AM, said:

the MDD has now without the patch already

Ballistic Cooldown -15%
C.Gauss Cooldown -10% in SO8

And if you want to compare post-patch HBK-GI, you must compare it to post-patch MDD-C and SNS-D. Not pre-patch.

[Staude Coston]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 July 2022 - 07:41 AM, said:

And if you want to compare post-patch HBK-GI, you must compare it to post-patch MDD-C and SNS-D. Not pre-patch.

if the MDD-C has 10% cooldown after the patch it was nerfed he already has 15%

[Kodan Black]

A Grid Iron can sport 1 Gauss rifle. Sure, it can pop off every 2 seconds, but it isn't gonna dominate. 50 tons.

Mechs running 2 gauss and other weapons is much scarier. Kinda like an urbie with an AC20, sure he is dangerous but severely ammo capped so it isn't like there is gonna be an urbie rolling around the battlefield on a killing spree wiping the whole red squad.