141 replies to this topic

[Lepestok]

Isn't it time to remove achievements related to Solaris-7 in Steam?

Edited by Lepestok, 19 July 2022 - 12:47 PM.

[Staude Coston]

Here is what I would have done:

Tonnage – Armor – Structure
65T – 1.8 – 3.3
70T – 1.7 – 3.2
75T – 1.7 – 3.2
80T – 1.6 – 3.1
85T – 1.6 – 3.1
90T – 1.5 – 3
95T – 1.5 – 3
100T – 1.5 – 3

Whether assaults need extra armor, I will leave to the community to decide. I personally think some assaults need something

IS Fafnir 190-82 Armor/Structure
Clan Dire 167-82 Armore/Structure

all 100 Tonner

this happens when i change the quirks %

this has nothing to do with balance anymore this is pull ****

[Heavy Money]

Excellent choices on this round of Platinum mechs! Last time I wasn't that excited by any of them, and made suggestions for ones that I would be excited to see and thought well sell well. These 2 packs are basically that list!

[Buenaventura]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 July 2022 - 03:57 PM, said:

BUG FIXES

• Hill Climb nodes now function as intended and will reduce the slow down rate of your mech when going over sudden changes of ground slope (rocks, uneven terrain, small hills, steps, etc.). This node was acting in reverse previously.
  
• Clan Ultra Auto Cannon 10 now deals full 10 damage instead of 9.9999, which allows it to destroy a UAV within optimum range in one shot.

Buenaventura, on 19 July 2022 - 11:24 AM, said:

So is the Vitric Station colour problem for AMD GPUs fixed (and you forgot to mention it) or not (and you forgot to mention that)?

To update on this:
It was NOT fixed!

Remove the map from the rotation until it is fixed.

[Ilostmycactus]

Can we get store discounts on the mechs that got changes, like in other patches?

[Capt Deadpool]

Nightbird, on 19 July 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

You BUFFed ALL ASSAULTs. You sir are incompetent.

It is so obviously incompetent, the ignorance seemingly so willful and evident in the poorly made excuses for these changes, that it smells much more to me like ulterior motive, done in the hopes the player base is too ignorant and trusting to recognize that the changes are for the benefit of a few who wish to shape the game in the way that best suits them with absolute disregard for any semblance of balance between classes.

C337Skymaster, on 19 July 2022 - 04:10 AM, said:

Honestly, a blanket nerf to literally everything isn't such a bad idea. Power Creep has been a real thing for years now, and a reset every now and then can be healthy.

All that has been happening for quite some time now is power creep, ergo, a blanket nerf mostly just undoes everything that has been done. Which is maybe the point? Make continuous arbitrary changes to the game to convince people to keep playing because "something is happening"...

I have held out hope for improvement and tried to stay positive, but what I said before any of these changes started seems to be holding true: a couple nerfs to a couple over-performing mechs before any of this would have resulted in a far more balanced game that what currently exists, instead of a group of people who do not understand game balance and/or who have ulterior motives constantly making arbitrary changes. But at the time, everyone was "aGaInSt NeRfS!!! bUfFs oNlY!!!".

[Nondescript Machine]

Ilostmycactus, on 19 July 2022 - 02:00 PM, said:

Can we get store discounts on the mechs that got changes, like in other patches?

Will most likely come tomorrow.

Welp PGI proved me wrong, lol

Edited by Nondescript Machine, 19 July 2022 - 04:31 PM.

[Big-G]

I dunno why, but the patch is downloading like at KB/s, and my line speed is 500Mbps... so not sure where in the world the bottleneck is

[FLG 01]

Navid A1, on 19 July 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

No matter how hard I look at these stats, a large number of heavies and assaults are going to suck regardless.

That is true for lights and mediums as well. How often do you see Griffins e.g.? (...which were buffed by the cauldron already, supposedly.)

There is always a small number of well performing mechs in every class, plus a larger number of who-cares.

What you are doing here is a blanket buff for a weight class that performs best already.
That won't help the who-cares assault Mechs, it will help making the dominant assault Mechs even more dominant ..,because you buffed them all the same regardless!

[dario03]

Big-G, on 19 July 2022 - 03:46 PM, said:

I dunno why, but the patch is downloading like at KB/s, and my line speed is 500Mbps... so not sure where in the world the bottleneck is

I had the opposite experience and had a much much faster than usual download. Maybe just a bunch of people downloading when you tried. Or did you run a speedtest?

[PocketYoda]

w0qj, on 18 July 2022 - 07:52 PM, said:

Since July 2022 patch has major quirk updates for King Crab:

==> Can MWO please help to add into Platinum Collection: (I actually want BOTH):

==> KGC-000B(P), or KGC-001(P), from the Steam Performance Pack and the MW5 Pre-order, please add?

I've bought 9 of the 10 IS/Clan Platinum Collections 01/02/03/04/05.
The only one that I've skipped was the IS Platinum Collection 03, where MWO offered KGC-000,
whereas I've already gotten my KGC-000(L) Loyalty Mech already unfortunately.

Thank you MWO in advance!

I so miss those Steam packs..

[Steve Pryde]

Now I'm getting neon colors on Vitric Station even in the testing ground. Seriously, u should fix this and not make it worse...

[Lepestok]

In battles some kind of fierce hell.
How do I now kill assault mechs on my Spider 5V?

[C337Skymaster]

Knownswift, on 19 July 2022 - 12:40 PM, said:

Tabletop is made out of power creep. It is essentially baked into the franchise. Bad example.

Military technology is made out of power creep. It's literally an arms race. That's why one of the biggest draws for MWO, and literally their biggest letdown ever, was when they announced they were going to advance the game "One day at a time", so the game universe would run in real-time with the real world, and if the game had started in 3048, then now, 10 years later, we would just be getting to 3058. This would allow the power creep to happen naturally, (and for anyone who knows the history, or at least knows enough to use Sarna, it would happen completely predictably).

The biggest letdown was when they quietly abandoned that idea.

[Alstren]

YES MY HUNCHIES ARE AWESOME AGAIN!

[Yer man oer yonder]

Regarding the La Malinche and it's PPC family HSL+1 is it bugged with Heavy Gauss Rifles?

This build with 2 Heavy PPCs and a regular Gauss rifle works ok but this build with a Heavy Gauss and 2 Heavy PPCs gives a warning in the mechlab and is generating extra heat in testing gounds.

[Nightbird]

Yer man oer yonder, on 20 July 2022 - 08:54 AM, said:

Regarding the La Malinche and it's PPC family HSL+1 is it bugged with Heavy Gauss Rifles?

This build with 2 Heavy PPCs and a regular Gauss rifle works ok but this build with a Heavy Gauss and 2 Heavy PPCs gives a warning in the mechlab and is generating extra heat in testing gounds.

Heavy Gauss has a limit of 2. It's not bugged.

Ghost heat groups works with the lowest number limit and highest heat penalty of all included weapons.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Before I say anything, I will say Nightbird’s stats and some recent testing have swayed my opinion to APPROVING of the Wolfhound changes as a new higher benchmark for lights and mediums. I guess my prediction was wrong before. Also, I think my previous calculations had some errors. Sorry...

Capt Deadpool, on 19 July 2022 - 02:33 PM, said:

It is so obviously incompetent, the ignorance seemingly so willful and evident in the poorly made excuses for these changes, that it smells much more to me like ulterior motive, done in the hopes the player base is too ignorant and trusting to recognize that the changes are for the benefit of a few who wish to shape the game in the way that best suits them with absolute disregard for any semblance of balance between classes.



All that has been happening for quite some time now is power creep, ergo, a blanket nerf mostly just undoes everything that has been done. Which is maybe the point? Make continuous arbitrary changes to the game to convince people to keep playing because "something is happening"...

I have held out hope for improvement and tried to stay positive, but what I said before any of these changes started seems to be holding true: a couple nerfs to a couple over-performing mechs before any of this would have resulted in a far more balanced game that what currently exists, instead of a group of people who do not understand game balance and/or who have ulterior motives constantly making arbitrary changes. But at the time, everyone was "aGaInSt NeRfS!!! bUfFs oNlY!!!".

TLDR: Agree with what you are trying to express, but this is not a result of some evil elites laughing at our demise – its just an acid test + fix of inherently broken parts of the game.


So what is the ulterior motive then? Make assault brawlers great again? (see assault skill tree changes + SNPPC changes) Turn lights into short to mid-range killing machines? (see SNPPC and LMG changes, June 2022) Its not like you can argue that assault snipers are getting loved, because they have been beaten by the nerf bat since early 2022 (actually assault ERPPC boats have been beaten up since April 2021). Not too harshly, but still if the Cauldron wanted to buff them they would make more excuses than flat out say they are too powerful.

Its not that you shouldn’t believe that there is some ulterior motive behind the Cauldron’s changes, but I just don’t see a clear one if it exists. OTOH, I can easily see motives behind WoT in the beta stages (pander to Russian audience), Valorant (make snipers OP to attract inflexible CS players), etc.

If you mean ulterior motives as in stubborn veterans crying about lights being able to match assaults, then I fully agree. This is not TT this is MWO, and Battle Value was dead on arrival.


There is no doubt the buffs will buff assaults – I actually don’t like how big the changes are, but I see it as a side effect to an inherent issue in the skill trees, an issue that is part of why most assault brawlers don’t play consistently.

What we need to do is nerf assault snipers and mid-range builds DIRECTLY. Nerf their quirks and weapons and basically just make their lives more difficult. In addition, you don’t want lights to be frustrating to play against, just difficult to play against. I don’t care if it goes against what Fire Moth or Celerity really were in the lore, its just not fun if you struggle to hit them because they are SUPER mobile and SUPER small. Therefore, we need to look at the armor and firepower of lights, and figure out how to bring them onto par with other weight classes, not just assaults.


Also, the assault skill tree buff wasn’t the only imbalance that was introduced over the Cauldron’s lifetime. In order of occurrence (some have since been corrected):

Assault Brawler meta (April 2021), Mist Lynx era Mk II (August 2021), Piranha Mob Chronicles (September 2021, actually very balanced, but look through the thread and General Discussion to see the community meltdown over the changes, including epic rants by D A T A, and SCRAP I think?), Viper era (November 2021), ERLL meta (About late 2021), SNPPC light meta (June 2022), Assault uber armor season (July 2022).


Here are some numbers regarding the skill tree buff to put things in perspective:
Assaults get 7.3% more armor and 6.4% more structure at most.
Its more like 6-7% more armor and 5-6% more structure when taking account survivability is not always the best option, and some players can’t afford the skill points.

Let’s assume that the increase in health is 6.7% (max health gain is about 16), based on DWF CT (because its the most average calculation I could find for 100T, max health gain is about 18 as I calculated on Atlas).

Let’s look at the other weight classes CT during the quirk pass:
Locust 1E: 44 vs 39 health is a 12.8% increase in health.
Mist Lynx: 62 vs 55 health is a 12.7% increase in health.
Cougar: 81 vs 66 health is a 22.7% increase in health.
Centurion: 116 vs 104 health is an 11.5% increase in health.
Nova Cat: 147 vs 132 health is an 11.4% increase in health.
(Atlas: 222 vs 208 health is a 6.7% increase in health of 14 points, excluding crit chance buffs – including, its more like 16 points)
(Fafnir: 224 vs 208 health is a 7.7% increase in health of 16 points)

I am not suggesting that these mechs don’t deserve these buffs, but no matter how you look at it, the end result of the skill tree change isn’t as game-breaking as you or Nightbird suggest. Navid is absolutely in the right to call that out.

IMO the changes feel similar to how much tougher the crapper Piranhas, Mist Lynx, and Nova Cat felt. It actually feels similar to how much tougher the Atlas and Fafnir got, and they still fall over from about 6 alphas from brawler adders and jenners in my experience .

Bare in mind the rise of mechs such as DWF and Atlas is not just due to armor, it’s due to firepower and mobility as well. You even said that a year ago in Touched Tier 1.

Capt Deadpool, on 25 November 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

Congrats! You will find that once you get the hang of assaults, their ability to influence games is mostly unparalleled, particularly given the new changes to maps which have reduced nascar, the fact that many of them have had significant agility buffs, and the buffs to weapons this year which assaults can boat like no other.

Also, assault survivability skills are not the only changes made. The focus was rebalancing the skill tree in general, see my calculations below.


There is no power creep under the Cauldron, i.e. if you did a blanket nerf, the MC-II and ERPPC WHK will flat-out be worse than 5 years ago and mechs like the Centurion and Cougar aren’t going to fade back to irrelevance.

The “something” cannot happen if the game is unpolished. Do you think the invisible walls, current state of MM, and constant game-changing patches will appeal to the wider audience? Maybe it won’t happen, but I don’t think it is being actively used as an excuse to keep people playing.


I get you’re upset about the skill tree changes. Me too, since it could have been packaged with buffs in other classes. But its not going to signal armageddon nor change the game back to 2017 – 2021 meta.

C337Skymaster, on 20 July 2022 - 02:43 AM, said:

Military technology is made out of power creep. It's literally an arms race. That's why one of the biggest draws for MWO, and literally their biggest letdown ever, was when they announced they were going to advance the game "One day at a time", so the game universe would run in real-time with the real world, and if the game had started in 3048, then now, 10 years later, we would just be getting to 3058. This would allow the power creep to happen naturally, (and for anyone who knows the history, or at least knows enough to use Sarna, it would happen completely predictably).

The biggest letdown was when they quietly abandoned that idea.

C337Skymaster, on 18 July 2022 - 05:09 PM, said:

Holy IS Sniper Meta. 25% range boost to La Malinche? So 40% with skills, and who knows what (50%?) on energy weapons with a TC-8. So Gauss Sniping from 2870m, and ERLL from at least 2072, probably closer to 2200. That's literally drop-zone to drop-zone on Boreal Vault, and that's literally every open area on every QP map covered by the optimum range.

When's power creep gonna end?

So the power creep you want is lore-based, not balance-based. You just proved my point.

Don’t color your comment as a battle against some power creep problem in MWO or an opinion everyone who ever plays MWO has, just be honest and say “I want MWO to feel more like TT”.

Because you are just going to feed conspiracy theorists with more nonsense fallacies if you twist your words like that.

Your opinion isn’t bad at all, you can contribute to the community with this idea. I like your targeting computer idea, and I don’t mind your ideas on adding power creep in the game (at the start, you can’t do it now), armor and weapon ideas.

Maybe in future MW shooter games, we can make it more TT-based.



For ***** and giggles, I did the math on the absolute health bonuses from the skill tree + %change from previous tonnage + extra health bonus post-patch:

20T: 24*0.26 + 12*0.41 = 6.24 + 4.92 = 11.1
N/A

25T: 32*0.25 + 16*0.4 = 8 + 6.4 = 14.4
+29.7%

30T: 40*0.24 + 20*0.39 = 9.6 + 7.8 = 17.4
+20.8%

35T: 44*0.23 + 22*0.38 = 10.12 + 8.36 = 18.48
+6.2%

40T: 48*0.22 + 24*0.37 = 10.56 + 8.88 = 19.44
+4.9%

45T: 56*0.21 + 28*0.36 = 11.76 + 10.08 = 21.84
+12.3%

50T: 64*0.2 + 32*0.35 = 12.8 + 11.2 = 24
+9.9%

55T: 72*0.19 + 36*0.34 = 13.68 + 12.24 = 25.92
+8%

60T: 80*0.18 + 40*0.33 = 14.4 + 13.2 = 27.6
+6.5%


Pre-patch:
65T: 84*0.17 + 42*0.32 = 14.28 + 13.44 = 27.72
+0.4%

70T: 88*0.16 + 44*0.31 = 14.08 + 13.64 = 27.72
0%

75T: 92*0.15 + 46*0.3 = 13.8 + 13.8 = 27.6
-0.4%

80T: 100*0.14 + 50*0.29 = 14 + 14.5 = 28.5
+3.3%

85T: 108*0.13 + 54*0.28 = 14.04 + 15.12 = 29.16
+2.3%

90T: 116*0.12 + 58*0.27 = 13.92 + 15.66 = 29.58
+1.4%

95T: 120*0.11 + 60*0.26 = 13.2 + 15.6 = 28.8
-2.6%

100T: 124*0.1 + 62*0.25 = 12.4 + 15.5 = 27.9
-3.1%


Post-patch (Cauldron changes):
65T: 84*0.18 + 42*0.33 = 15.12 + 13.86 = 28.98
+5% (add_health=1.26)

70T: 88*0.18 + 44*0.33 = 15.84 + 14.52 = 30.36
+4.8% (add_health=2.64)

75T: 92*0.18 + 46*0.33 = 16.56 + 15.18 = 31.74
+4.5% (add_health=4.14)

80T: 100*0.18 + 50*0.33 = 18 + 16.5 = 34.5
+8.7% (add_health=6)

85T: 108*0.18 + 54*0.33 = 19.44 + 17.82 = 37.26
+8% (add_health=8.1)

90T: 116*0.18 + 58*0.33 = 20.88 + 19.14 = 40.02
+6.9% (add_health=11.04)

95T: 120*0.18 + 60*0.33 = 21.6 + 19.8 = 41.4
+3.4% (add_health=12.6)

100T: 124*0.18 + 62*0.33 = 22.32 + 20.46 = 42.78
+3.3% (add_health=14.9)


Post-patch (My changes) *1:
65T: 84*0.18 + 42+0.33 = 15.12 + 13.86 = 28.98
+5% (add_health=1.26)

70T: 88*0.18 + 44*0.33 = 15.84 + 14.52 = 30.36
+4.8% (add_health=2.64)

75T: 92*0.18 + 46*0.33 = 16.56 + 15.18 = 31.74
+4.5% (add_health=4.14)

80T: 100*0.17 + 50*0.32 = 17 + 16 = 33
+4% (add_health=4.5)

85T: 108*0.16 + 54*0.31 = 17.28 + 16.74 = 34.02
+3.1% (add_health=4.86)

90T: 116*0.15 + 58*0.3 = 17.4 + 17.4 = 34.8
+2.3% (add_health=5.22)

95T: 120*0.15 + 60*0.3 = 18 + 18 = 36
+3.4% (add_health=7.2)

100T: 124*0.15 + 62*0.3 = 18.6 + 18.6 = 37.2
+3.3% (add_health=9.3)


1* After doing the math, I realized my changes were flawed. Revised my ideas:

Tonnage - Armor - Structure
65T - 1.8 - 3.3
70T - 1.8 - 3.3
75T - 1.8 - 3.3
80T - 1.7 - 3.2
85T - 1.6 - 3.1
90T - 1.5 - 3
95T - 1.5 - 3
100T - 1.5 - 3


As you can see, the skill tree is inherently broken in survivability. Assaults actually get the same raw armor from skill points compared to heavies!
In response, I don't see why the 95T and 100T mechs can't be nerfed in terms of firepower.

[C337Skymaster]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 July 2022 - 10:06 AM, said:

So the power creep you want is lore-based, not balance-based. You just proved my point.

Don’t color your comment as a battle against some power creep problem in MWO or an opinion everyone who ever plays MWO has, just be honest and say “I want MWO to feel more like TT”.

Because you are just going to feed conspiracy theorists with more nonsense fallacies if you twist your words like that.

Your opinion isn’t bad at all, you can contribute to the community with this idea. I like your targeting computer idea, and I don’t mind your ideas on adding power creep in the game (at the start, you can’t do it now), armor and weapon ideas.

Maybe in future MW shooter games, we can make it more TT-based.

Yes, I want MWO to feel more like TT. Yes, I really liked the idea of moving the universe along in real time, not even so much for the power creep, as for the storyline, and actually having a REASON to play the game after 10 years. (This is literally the ONLY multiplayer shooter I've ever played, and every single other game I've ever played in my life has been one with an immersive single player campaign, including the original MechWarrior titles. I got suckered into this one because I was under the impression that this was going to have a similar story-based gameplay, and was quickly disappointed to find a rinse-and-repeat style of game).

That's not to say that we're not getting power creep in MWO, itself. Damage stats HAVE been increasing. Cooldowns HAVE been decreasing. Heat stats HAVE been decreasing. More and more 'mechs are getting Ghost Heat exceptions unrelated to their stock loadouts, further decreasing heat burdens, and increasing damage output.

It's getting easier and easier to get killed while your 'mech is still in the high 90's % health from a well-placed, high damage alpha strike.

TTB just posted a video the other day of one-shotting assaults in the behind with a rocket launcher Javelin, although my experience has been with laser/ppc/gauss vomit.

[Nightbird]

Assaults are easily the best performing weight class. Heavies are the second best.

If you want to balance, then you would be doing a blanket buff on lights and mediums and then working on outliers. The only work needed on assault is the nerfing of top performers.

If you want to understand why, look up Cauldron members on Jarl's list. Most main assaults.

Full stop.