67 replies to this topic

[MechMaster059]

Nightbird, on 30 August 2022 - 03:30 PM, said:

All UACs give about 30% more average DPS than their AC counterparts.

This is not relevant to the discussion.

[Pixel Hunter]

don't forget the AC20 is a brawling weapon. a longer jam really hampers this weapon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 03:14 PM, said:

An interesting proposal. That would probably make high caliber UAC weapons really annoying to use though if their jam chance were to be significantly increased to compensate for their jam duration being significantly decreased. For example, if the IS UAC/10 had it's jam chance doubled up to 30% but it's jam duration cut in half down to 3.75s it would be jamming on roughly every 3rd shot and there would become a significant likelihood of experiencing double-jams, a jam immediately followed by another jam. I think the danger posed by double jam's makes your proposal nonviable.

The point is to make the randomness less "swingy". Or you could just make the jam chance 50% and reduce the jam time. Yes, you'll jam more often but that is less problematic if it does not prevent you from keeping pressure up more consistently. Then quirks can just focus on reducing jam times.

For example the UAC2 would have a jam chance of 50% but a jam duration less than the cooldown (so 50% of the time it would effectively double your cooldown). This is using your jam durations because it is an unfair hit to that weapon.

UAC2: 50% jam chance, 0.7s jam time | 33% jam chance, 1.05s jam time
UAC5: 50% jam chance, 1.26s jam time | 33% jam chance, 1.89s jam time
UAC10: 50% jam chance, 1.68s jam time | 33% jam chance, 2.52s jam time
UAC20: 50% jam chance, 2.1s jam time | 33% jam chance, 3.15s jam time

Basically with 50% jam chance you get 2 shots for the cost of between a full cooldown to 50% of a cooldown cycle.

Running with my original idea we can get numbers like this:

UAC2: 15.75% jam chance, 2s jam time
UAC5: 31.5% jam chance, 2s jam time
UAC10: 28% jam chance, 3s jam time
UAC20: 35% jam chance, 3s jam time

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 03:14 PM, said:

These numbers are crazy. The idea that the UAC/20 needs to be given such tremendous jam advantages due to it being a brawling weapon is silly. You may say the opportunity cost of a UAC/20 jam is much higher than a UAC/2 jam but that doesn't really mean much of the UAC/20 doesn't jam at all in the process of getting a kill now does it? That's also compensated for anyway by the dramatically higher number of times a UAC/2 will jam over the course of using a ton of ammo.

I think I just proved that the nerfs I proposed for the UAC/20 are too mild and don't go nearly far enough in balancing the weapon. (By the way, I also believe the UAC/10 and UAC/20 should both have their weight increased by +0.5 tons to help balance them vs vanilla AC cannons.)

Just....what? Don't get me wrong, I do think the UAC10 is actually nerfed as far as jams go, unfairly so, but let's not "normalize" a subpar weapon without compensating it appropriately. On the clan side, the UAC20 stands up a bit better, but on the IS side, there are several compounding negatives compared to other weapons. Hotter for the damage, spreads due to multiple shells instead of a single PPFLD shell, and is slower. Compare this to UAC2s which are hands down some of the best weapons available to the IS which only have the negative of being hotter for the damage (which is generally worth it because AC2s don't really have much heat to begin with). Even if the UAC2 fired multiple shells, it wouldn't really matter since it is less burst focused and more DPS oriented.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2022 - 07:11 PM.

[Vorpal Puppy]

Like many weapon systems, weapon parameters get set based on the highest performing boated scenario. If you could buff a single UAC on any build it would help a number of underperforming mechs. But anything besides doing it with a quirk would require programming, so not likely at this point. I think it would be fun to do things along this line for single weapon systems and make some of the bracket builds of lore be at least semi-viable.

Edited by Vorpal Puppy, 30 August 2022 - 07:21 PM.

[Hand of Vecna]

Thanks for doing the math! Can I strap one of those UAC 20s on my Locust?

[MechMaster059]

Pixel Hunter, on 30 August 2022 - 05:24 PM, said:

don't forget the AC20 is a brawling weapon. a longer jam really hampers this weapon.

I see you didn't take the time to read any of my replies.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 07:09 PM, said:

The point is to make the randomness less "swingy".

I think you have an interesting proposal Quicksilver, I just think the percentages you propose are too high and would potentially make the weapons feel annoying to use and possibly even break immersion. That being said, the UAC/20 could easily withstand having it's jam chance increased MUCH higher without it being a problem due to the low salvo count of the weapon. Perhaps percentages as follows:

(Inner Sphere)
UAC2: 18% jam chance, 2s jam duration
UAC5: 20% jam chance, 3.5s jam duration
UAC10: 22% jam chance, 4s jam duration
UAC20: 24% jam chance, 4.5s jam duration

Hrmmmm... now that I think about it, you just might be on to something here Quicksilver. I think a hybrid of what I propose and what you propose should be done.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 07:09 PM, said:

Just....what?

Not sure if you saw my picture showing IS UAC/20's currently able to fire through 1 ton of ammo without experiencing a single jam about 50% of the time or if you're wondering why I think the UAC/10 and UAC/20 should have their weights raised by 1/2 a ton.

Vorpal Puppy, on 30 August 2022 - 07:20 PM, said:

But anything besides doing it with a quirk would require programming

Nope, no programming required. As shown in Aidan Crenshaw's link these jam chances and durations are all settings in a flat configuration file. Once the numbers are decided upon the changes could literally be made within minutes.

Hand of Vecna, on 30 August 2022 - 08:09 PM, said:

Thanks for doing the math! Can I strap one of those UAC 20s on my Locust?

I'm not sure about the Locust but I do clearly remember being killed in my SHD-2D by An Adder D equipped with a UAC/20 on Frozen City. It was fairly early in the match and I was on the east side of the map and remember seeing a lance of light mechs approaching in the distance. I fired some RAC/5 shells at them as they approached and then some SRM4's as well and they scattered behind some buildings. The Adder then popped out from behind one of the buildings and charged straight at me. It literally got right up in my face and tanked a RAC/5, 3xSRM4's and 2xLPPC and killed me before I could kill it. I remember feeling stunned a light mech could kill me through that was was left wondering what the hell just happened. I remember saying in team chat after I died "What the f*** just happened!? I just got destroyed by a light mech to the face. Watch out for the Adder."

It was at the end of the match where I learned what variant of light mech had killed me and as a result I first learned that Clan UAC's are differentiated from IS UAC's with less weight, less slots, and longer range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 08:51 PM, said:

Not sure if you saw my picture showing IS UAC/20's currently able to fire through 1 ton of ammo without experiencing a single jam about 50% of the time or if you're wondering why I think the UAC/10 and UAC/20 should have their weights raised by 1/2 a ton.

It's more about how you said they needed to be nerfed or really "normalized". Weapons have been "normalized" before where it ended up as a net nerf on a weapon so I'm just pointing out that despite what the jam numbers may lead to, the UAC20 is probably the weakest of the UACs so any nerf of their jamming needs to be coincide with buffs to other stats on the weapon.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2022 - 09:39 PM.

[Nightbird]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is not relevant to the discussion.

You wanted to talk about normalization, I told you how current weapons were normalized.

If you don't understand why this is important, you won't understand why your proposal is bad.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 09:39 PM, said:

It's more about how you said they needed to be nerfed or really "normalized". Weapons have been "normalized" before where it ended up as a net nerf on a weapon so I'm just pointing out that despite what the jam numbers may lead to, the UAC20 is probably the weakest of the UACs so any nerf of their jamming needs to be coincide with buffs to other stats on the weapon.

This post of mine is a rare example where I was actually arguing AGAINST normalization. The UAC/10 is currently well normalized with a Jam Duration / Cooldown ratio of 3 which is very similar to the UAC/2 and UAC/5. The raw jam duration of the UAC/10 is simply too long at 7.5s despite being normalized though. I was less trying to normalize the UAC/20 and more just flat out nerf it.

"he UAC20 is probably the weakest of the UACs so any nerf of their jamming needs to be coincide with buffs to other stats on the weapon."

Nope. The jam numbers on the UAC/20 are OP as hell and deserve straight up nerfs with no compensation at all.

Nightbird, on 30 August 2022 - 10:10 PM, said:

You wanted to talk about normalization, I told you how current weapons were normalized.

If you don't understand why this is important, you won't understand why your proposal is bad.

That's really great. The jam numbers on the UAC/10 can be reworked such that it still does 30% more DPS than an AC/10 without the weapon having a broken 7.5s jam delay.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 10:16 PM, said:

Nope. The jam numbers on the UAC/20 are OP as hell and deserve straight up nerfs with no compensation at all.

Then your proposal as bad as PGI's attempt at normalization in the past, the UAC20 is not an overperforming weapon despite it providing the largest benefit compared to other UACs, and there is a reason for this. If you want to "normalize" the DPS benefit then it will definitely need compensation elsewhere like using fewer shells per salvo, lower heat, faster salvos, faster velocity, etc.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2022 - 10:25 PM.

[Nightbird]

Also true, UAC/20 is the least used of all the UACs. Too slow shells, too low range. UAC10 and 5s are most popular.

For being so OP, people certainly don't want to touch it.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 10:23 PM, said:

Then your proposal as bad as PGI's attempt at normalization in the past, the UAC20 is not an overperforming weapon despite it providing the largest benefit compared to other UACs, and there is a reason for this.

My proposal was a very MILD nerf to UAC20's that would be barely noticeable by the player base as long as my buff to the Jam Duration skill nodes was implemented as well. What I proposed almost certainly doesn't go far enough with regards to the UAC/20.

The UAC/20 is kept in check by it's short-ish range and it's heavy weight limiting it to mostly being mounted on slower mechs. (Not the ADR-D however) It's an utterly devastating weapon once inside this range and probably somewhat OP.

Nightbird, on 30 August 2022 - 10:28 PM, said:

Also true, UAC/20 is the least used of all the UACs. Too slow shells, too low range. UAC10 and 5s are most popular.

For being so OP, people certainly don't want to touch it.

You have any numbers to back that up or are you the kind of poster who just makes "proclamations" to bolster your argument?

The weight and slot usage of the UAC/20 will limit what mechs can mount it and says absolutely nothing about whether or not people "like" the weapon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 10:31 PM, said:

My proposal was a very MILD nerf to UAC20's that would be barely noticeable by the player base as long as my buff to the Jam Duration skill nodes was implemented as well. What I proposed almost certainly doesn't go far enough with regards to the UAC/20.

The UAC/20 is kept in check by it's short-ish range and it's heavy weight limiting it to mostly being mounted on slower mechs. (Not the ADR-D however) It's an utterly devastating weapon once inside this range and probably somewhat OP.

There are scarier weapons than the UAC20 for the range it is useful at. It isn't a devastating weapon because its cost is too high to run effectively. It can't snap fire (SRMs, AC20s, LBX20s, and Snub PPCs all share this trait), it can't be boated like other short range duration based weapons (cmPLs, cSPLs, cMPLs, iSPLs, iMLs, iMPLs). So it already doesn't really pair well with anything, and mechs that can run two can generally run better loadouts like boating Snub PPCs or SRMs/AC20s.

The ADR-D is an afterthought of a mech, the HBK-IIC-C with 2 LBX20s was always scarier in a brawl than an Adder, I mean Splat Jenners and Oxides were traditionally scarier and probably still are as well if you want compare similar weight classes.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 10:31 PM, said:

You have any numbers to back that up or are you the kind of poster who just makes "proclamations" to bolster your argument?

I'd wager that it sees the least use in comp out of any of the UACs. I would bet that UAC2s are probably the highest with 5/10s taking the middle, and 20s being on the lowest end. I could be wrong and have the 2s higher but if given a choice between two 10s, three 5s, or four 2s, I'm taking the 2s.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2022 - 11:05 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 10:44 PM, said:

There are scarier weapons than the UAC20 for the range it is useful at.

So now we're dumping on UAC/20's all of the sudden? LOL... UAC/20 are mediocre weapons now huh? Many of the weapon combos you listed quickly run into heat issues if you spam them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 10:44 PM, said:

The ADR-D is an afterthought of a mech, the HBK-IIC-C with 2 LBX20s was always scarier in a brawl than an Adder, I mean Splat Jenners and Oxides were traditionally scarier and probably still are as well if you want compare similar weight classes.

You missed the point of my comment. The Hunchback is a medium mech. I don't know what an "Oxide" is.

"Hand of Vecna" was trying to imply UAC/20's can't be mounted on light mechs with his smug little comment which he's dead wrong about.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 August 2022 - 10:44 PM, said:

I'd wager that it sees the least use in comp out of any of the UACs. I would bet that UAC2s are probably the highest with 5/10s taking the middle, and 20s being on the lowest end. I could be wrong and have the 2s higher but if given a choice between two 10s, three 5s, or four 2s, I'm taking the 2s.

Once again this likely says little about the value of UAC/20's since it's weight and slot characteristics limit what mechs it can be mounted on.

I prefer 4xLBX2's over 2xLBX10's on my Rifleman-3C but the ammo tax on the 2's mandates the use of an XL engine in that mech to accommodate the additional ammo. There's little point in mounting any UAC's on it simply because it has no UAC quirks. That doesn't make the UAC/20 "bad" because I don't want to mount them on the mech.

Edited by MechMaster059, 31 August 2022 - 12:08 AM.

[Knownswift]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 03:14 PM, said:

The UAC10 isn't the only weapon on the mech. I didn't think you would care.

Even if you filled the other hardpoints it is still undergunned. Not sure about your rac build, probably wouldn't do that either.

[MechMaster059]

Knownswift, on 31 August 2022 - 12:07 AM, said:

Even if you filled the other hardpoints it is still undergunned. Not sure about your rac build, probably wouldn't do that either.

Cool story bro.

[Knownswift]

It is a cool story. I look forward to your next one.

But I guess we all learned the UAC20 needs buffs, uac10 clearly overperforming.

[Curccu]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

So now we're dumping on UAC/20's all of the sudden? LOL... UAC/20 are mediocre weapons now huh? Many of the weapon combos you listed quickly run into heat issues if you spam them.

Because it is mediocre.
Energy weapons he listed are hotter but they also require way less tons and slots, which you can use to get heatsinks.

Dude no offense but you have played this game what three months?
Quicksilver has played since 2011 in one of the best US comp units.
I have played since 2012 in multiple top4 EU comp units.
Nightbird has played since 2015 mostly faction play (As far as I know) in one of the best units that focuses on that.
I don't know why you have such hard time to believe people with this kind of massive experience that UAC20 is mediocre or even just bad weapon and doesn't deserve any kind of nerfs even when your excel math says otherwise, stuff needs to work in practice also not just on paper. You don't see them a lot in games just because they are not good, if you make something good or even OP (like snubnose ppcs was before last patch) you see a lot of those in games... That is not the case with UAC20.

MWO World championships 2020 is running right now play few games and see how many UAC20s there are, later this Year go watch semifinals and finals and I can almost guarantee that you will not see UAC20 there, not a single one.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

You missed the point of my comment. The Hunchback is a medium mech. I don't know what an "Oxide" is.

Oxide is light mech that used to be one of the best mech in the game (won multiple dueling tournaments).

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

"Hand of Vecna" was trying to imply UAC/20's can't be mounted on light mechs with his smug little comment which he's dead wrong about.

Well he was pretty specifically saying that he cannot mount it to locust, which is 100% true.
All light mechs with UAC20 are pretty much joke builds. Even that Adder of yours is way better with twin UAC5

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

Once again this likely says little about the value of UAC/20's since it's weight and slot characteristics limit what mechs it can be mounted on.

It can be mounted a lot of assault mehcs but for some reason people won't do that.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

I prefer 4xLBX2's over 2xLBX10's on my Rifleman-3C but the ammo tax on the 2's mandates the use of an XL engine in that mech to accommodate the additional ammo. There's little point in mounting any UAC's on it simply because it has no UAC quirks. That doesn't make the UAC/20 "bad" because I don't want to mount them on the mech.

If you call some weapon OP but don't want to mount it to your own mechs even if you could... that tells me something if that weapon really is OP.

Edited by Curccu, 31 August 2022 - 04:27 AM.

[caravann]

It fires 1.5 times of a normal AC , The UAC20 is slower in fire rate. It's hard pressed to pump out 3 shots compared to a single from AC

AC2 compensated by firing faster but jams faster as well. This is to be considered that ac2 may be better in dps than most other but value of the shots from AC depend on how many shots are fired. With UAC the goal is to fire very little and in a concentrated timeframe. With UAC2 you're shredding armor which means the advantages isn't there. With UAC5 , 10-15 damage in a short time is still an impact. with UAC2 you get either 4 or 6 damage. with UAC20 you get 20-30 damage. 4 damage isn't going to cut through 10 armor or 71, 81 ,91 101

UAC5 dealing 10-15 damage, UAC 10 15-22,5 damage , UAC 20-30 damage, UAC2 4-6 damage

UAC10 has a good value if the UAC20 doesn't get to fire its third shot. In DPS UAC20 win but UAC is not about DPS. It's about dealing lots of damage in a short time at the expense of jamming. If the goal is to shred armor AC2 is better, as soon you face tank the opponent or doesn't use quick shots with relocation the use of UAC is gone.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

So now we're dumping on UAC/20's all of the sudden? LOL... UAC/20 are mediocre weapons now huh? Many of the weapon combos you listed quickly run into heat issues if you spam them.

They really don't, the problem you run into with the UAC20 and to a lesser extent other AC20s is that they are typically prohibitive to even run, meaning the cost/space to mount them already eats so much tonnage that you end up sacrificing burst damage which is important in Mechwarrior. Often the AC20 also requires you to not run an XL, which typically means you are on the slower end of mechs as well which means if you are trying to push a long range team, you are likely to die before closing the gap to even use your weapon.

Also here is a case study for you:

• 2 Snub Nose PPCs = 20+10 damage for 12 tons, no ammo tax, same range, faster projectile, and on a mech with no heat quirks and only the base heat sinks is 56% heat efficiency (which is a little lower than you probably want to be for a brawler, but you have the tonnage to spare a DHS or two).
  
• UAC20 = 6.666 * 6 (not accounting for jams) for 15 tons, ammo tax (you probably want to run at least 4 tons), and on a mech with no heat quirks and only the base heat sinks probably translates to roughly heat neutral, but assuming no jams is about 73% heat efficiency.

Now you may say that is hot, but add quirks or two more heat sinks (which puts you at the same slot requirement as the UAC20, so they can run the same structure/armor) and you get 66% heat efficiency which is about where you want to be for a brawler, but you don't have to deal with additional tonnage for ammo, a slower projectile, and more face time (I think it translates to 0.94s of face time at bare minimum at least). For what? Being heat neutral? That isn't worth it.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

"Hand of Vecna" was trying to imply UAC/20's can't be mounted on light mechs with his smug little comment which he's dead wrong about.

Just because you can does not mean you should, no one is taking light mechs with UAC20s in a serious match, except maybe the first match of MRBC and even then I don't remember anyone bother with UAC20s on Adders or Cougars.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

Once again this likely says little about the value of UAC/20's since it's weight and slot characteristics limit what mechs it can be mounted on.

That's kinda important don't you think that its weight limit what mechs it can be mounted on, especially since the slower the mech, the more you should avoid short range weapons.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

I prefer 4xLBX2's over 2xLBX10's on my Rifleman-3C but the ammo tax on the 2's mandates the use of an XL engine in that mech to accommodate the additional ammo. There's little point in mounting any UAC's on it simply because it has no UAC quirks. That doesn't make the UAC/20 "bad" because I don't want to mount them on the mech.

I mean it does make your mech bad, because LBX are mediocre, even the 20s. The 20s are typically mounted on Clan brawlers because they really don't have a good snap fire ballistic option other than that and you might not have the hardpoints to just mass spam SRMs or enough cSPLs.