67 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Dude no offense but you have played this game what three months?
Quicksilver has played since 2011 in one of the best US comp units.
I have played since 2012 in multiple top4 EU comp units.
Nightbird has played since 2015 mostly faction play (As far as I know) in one of the best units that focuses on that.
I don't know why you have such hard time to believe people with this kind of massive experience that UAC20 is mediocre or even just bad weapon and doesn't deserve any kind of nerfs even when your excel math says otherwise, stuff needs to work in practice also not just on paper. You don't see them a lot in games just because they are not good, if you make something good or even OP (like snubnose ppcs was before last patch) you see a lot of those in games... That is not the case with UAC20.

Yeah, I agree with you.

The thread's creator really should exercise a little more humility. Balance-by-spreadsheet doesn't work. It's useful as a starting point, but not the be-all and end-all of game balance.

That's because, as I've said before, the game is far too complex to be easily captured by mathematics:

Quote

Bottom line is, as I said, the computability of finding game balance. It doesn't exist for a deep and well designed game, and in fact should not exist.

This is due to the solvability of a game. One of the goals of good game design is to make your game unsolvable. This is a good thing. That's because a solved game is predictable and boring. Tic Tac Toe is solved, and a very shallow and uninteresting game.

A game designer shall intentionally reduce the solvability of their game, which creates greater depth and keeps players coming back over and over again, constantly pushing the boundaries as they explore the game's decision-space. A game with a very large decision-space is one in which even the game's designer cannot fully explore on their own, and if done well, even with millions of players, the decision-space will not be exhausted. It is because the players will use techniques that even the designers did not think of, that expecting anyone to design an algorithm to determine game balance is futile.

Players will think of techniques and methods that not even the designers originally envisioned, and these may force the game designers to re-think the game's balance. More likely is that, given some time, other players will devise a way to counter that innovative new technique with yet another new technique of their own. Game designers should give players some time to see if they can come up with counter-play options, rather than knee-jerk nerfing things that rise to the top of the "meta" (the way PGI used to smash things with the nerf bat is not how you do game balance!). A game whose decision-space can be quickly exhausted is a shallow game and one that is not worth playing.

Thus, in a well-designed game with complexity and depth, you cannot exhaust the decision-space, hence you cannot determine game balance by computation alone.

Edited by YueFei, 31 August 2022 - 12:40 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Nightbird, on 30 August 2022 - 03:30 PM, said:

All UACs give about 30% more average DPS than their AC counterparts.

When not jammed for half the match..

[Nightbird]

Nomad Tech, on 31 August 2022 - 03:22 PM, said:

When not jammed for half the match..

Including all the jams.

It wouldn't be the average if it didn't include them lol.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Did we even consider that a weapon that unjams starts on cooldown? I mean, that significantly ramps up the UAC20s downtime after a jam in comparison to the UAC10. Just sayin'.

[MechMaster059]

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Because it is mediocre.
Energy weapons he listed are hotter but they also require way less tons and slots, which you can use to get heatsinks.

Dude no offense but you have played this game what three months?
Quicksilver has played since 2011 in one of the best US comp units.
I have played since 2012 in multiple top4 EU comp units.
Nightbird has played since 2015 mostly faction play (As far as I know) in one of the best units that focuses on that.
I don't know why you have such hard time to believe people with this kind of massive experience that UAC20 is mediocre or even just bad weapon and doesn't deserve any kind of nerfs even when your excel math says otherwise, stuff needs to work in practice also not just on paper. You don't see them a lot in games just because they are not good, if you make something good or even OP (like snubnose ppcs was before last patch) you see a lot of those in games... That is not the case with UAC20.

This is lamest response possible: pulling rank.
X has played since blah blah in competitive blah blah.
Pulling rank isn't an argument.
Pulling rank isn't analysis.
It's an intellectually lazy tactic with the sole purpose of stifling analysis and basically telling someone to just shut up without explicitly telling them to shut up.

(I will note that Quicksilvers experience with the game shows considering he is the ONLY PERSON who has made a productive contribution to this thread)

You clowns just blanket declare the UAC/20 to be mediocre without the slightest analysis as to why. The C-UAC/20 is the only clan weapon with an HSL value of 1. The IS-UAC/20 and MRM40 are the only IS weapons with an HSL value of 1. (The vanilla IS-AC/20 also has an HSL value of 1 but that makes no sense and judging by some of the other wacky numbers I've seen so far in this game that's probably yet another glitch PGI is unaware of.)

Why is that? Why is the UAC/20 nearly unique in having an HSL value of 1? How much use would the weapon see, especially in clan mechs, if it's HSL was upped to 2? Perhaps it has something to do with PGI not wanting to see 80 damage repeatedly put out in less than 3/4 of a second by dual UAC/20's?

Large numbers of mechs cannot even mount the weapon due to it's slot requirements so that alone has an impact on how often you'll see it in competitive matches.

Then you bring up SNUBs? Seriously? That's really great that what's known to possibly be the most OP weapon currently in he game performs well in competitive and pushes out other builds. I never would have guessed that on my own. Thank you so much for that insightful information.

You ignore the bad ammo tax on the weapon which I took the time to write a long post about and defend from the usual forum trolls who are only intellectually capable of defending the status quo. (I was told I was too new to the game to have an opinion in that thread too... so boring.)

Curccu, if you're the kind of poster who likes to pull rank, please stop posting in my threads. I'm trying to improve the game and posters like you just get in the way.

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

MWO World championships 2020 is running right now play few games and see how many UAC20s there are, later this Year go watch semifinals and finals and I can almost guarantee that you will not see UAC20 there, not a single one.

I'm interested in watching some of these matches. I'll look into seeing if they're posted on YouTube. I've watched a couple of matches JGx D A T A was in.

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Oxide is light mech that used to be one of the best mech in the game (won multiple dueling tournaments).

What happened to this mysterious "Oxide"? I don't see that name in the store.

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well he was pretty specifically saying that he cannot mount it to locust, which is 100% true.
All light mechs with UAC20 are pretty much joke builds. Even that Adder of yours is way better with twin UAC5

No he's not "specifically saying" he can't mount it on his Locust. He used a light mech he owned as an example to try and broadly imply that UAC/20's can't be mounted on light mechs which is wrong.

The ADR-D has only 1 ballistic mount, a 20% ballistic cooldown quirk, and +ammo quirks. Only the ADR-CN has 2 ballistic mounts, 1/2 the ballistic cooldown and no +ammo quirks, so no the Adder wouldn't be better off with dual UAC/5's. FAIL.

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

It can be mounted a lot of assault mehcs but for some reason people won't do that.

What are those reasons? No analysis provided, just a blanket statement. No proof that it's not used.

Curccu, on 31 August 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

If you call some weapon OP but don't want to mount it to your own mechs even if you could... that tells me something if that weapon really is OP.

The only reason I removed the UAC/20 was because of the 4 ton ammo tax. Once again, this is why I wrote a forum post trying to fix that issue. Otherwise it was an awesome weapon on my SHD-5M. This was the build:
https://mwo.nav-alph...ba2bada6_SHD-5M

This is the UAC/10 build:
https://mwo.nav-alph...dada5fad_SHD-5M

The UAC/10 build has 3 tons of ammo but doesn't need 3 tons. It never ran out of ammo with 2.5 tons in play testing but came very close to running out a couple of times so I upped it to 3 ton just to be safe. It doesn't matter because the horrible jam duration of the UAC/10 ruins the build.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2022 - 08:02 AM, said:

Also here is a case study for you:

• 2 Snub Nose PPCs = 20+10 damage for 12 tons, no ammo tax, same range, faster projectile, and on a mech with no heat quirks and only the base heat sinks is 56% heat efficiency (which is a little lower than you probably want to be for a brawler, but you have the tonnage to spare a DHS or two).
  
• UAC20 = 6.666 * 6 (not accounting for jams) for 15 tons, ammo tax (you probably want to run at least 4 tons), and on a mech with no heat quirks and only the base heat sinks probably translates to roughly heat neutral, but assuming no jams is about 73% heat efficiency.

I don't want to be glib but comparing UAC/20's to SNUB's makes my point right there. You have to pick what may be currently the most OP weapon in the game to make your case.

What one needs to ask is to what degree would UAC/20's be used if the +2 salvos / ton ammo I proposed was implemented for them and if their HSL was upped to 2.

One must be careful in making references to the "competitive scene" because it's very common for anything and everything other than those few most optimized builds to be excluded. It was common in the Dota 2 Internationals for many heroes to be ignored and to only see a handful of hero's used over and over again. (Chen, Enigma, Pudge, blah blah snore snore) That said less about unused hero's being "bad" and more about what was used as likely being OP or being best in class for some critical niche.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2022 - 08:02 AM, said:

Just because you can does not mean you should, no one is taking light mechs with UAC20s in a serious match, except maybe the first match of MRBC and even then I don't remember anyone bother with UAC20s on Adders or Cougars.

I'm not going to continue going around in circles arguing over the merits of ADR-D. You guys misunderstood the true intentions behind Hand of Vecna's post and my response to it so let's move on.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2022 - 08:02 AM, said:

That's kinda important don't you think that its weight limit what mechs it can be mounted on, especially since the slower the mech, the more you should avoid short range weapons.

This issue isn't limited to the UAC/20. All 20 caliber weapons and other heavy weapons have to deal with it. MRM40's, Heavy Gauss, Heavy PPC, etc.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2022 - 08:02 AM, said:

I mean it does make your mech bad, because LBX are mediocre, even the 20s. The 20s are typically mounted on Clan brawlers because they really don't have a good snap fire ballistic option other than that and you might not have the hardpoints to just mass spam SRMs or enough cSPLs.

My mech is "bad"? Really? That's it folks, Quicksilver has proclaimed my LBX2 RFL-3C to be "bad". I am undone. Except it's not bad. I consider my LBX2 RFL-3C to be the most dangerous mech I own. I didn't expect that but that's the way it seems in combat. I have cooldown skills maxed and +5% range (it comes with a massive +25% range in quirks). The mech can instantly switch targets and start pouring out damage and suppressive fire at 1,050 meters.

Bad compared to what? AC/2's? LBX2's destroy AC/2's so I won't even discuss that. UAC/2's? UAC/2's means 4 more tons of weight. The mech has an XL engine and moves at 77kph with skills. It has no weight to spare with 4x ERSL and 7 tons of ammo. The only place 4 tons can therefore come from is the engine which would bring the move speed down to 64kph. Unacceptable. I know that's unacceptable because I tested that speed with a light engine and the mech could not maneuver out of danger if it got into trouble. Besides, why would I mount UAC/2s on the 3C when the 3N has a massive -30% jam chance quirk?

I tried the mech with dual RAC/5s which is also very good but lacks the safety that the massive range of the LBX2's provide. I tried dual RAC/2s with dual Light PPC's. The RAC2/s were too weak. I also have an LBX10 build that fixes the ammo tax issues and is reasonably good but, overall, the LBX2 is without a doubt the best build I could find for that variant.

YueFei, on 31 August 2022 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree with you.

The thread's creator really should exercise a little more humility. Balance-by-spreadsheet doesn't work. It's useful as a starting point, but not the be-all and end-all of game balance.

Humility? Me? YOU'RE the one who needs to be more humble. Why is it always the other guy who needs to be humble? Rather than pulling rank, have the humility to recognized the truth when it's staring you in the face and not blithely dismissing it with a glib "spreadsheets don't work"? Don't work? Huh?

1 ton of UAC/20 ammo with skills is enough damage to core a 100 ton assault mech. Do you think it's acceptable for a UAC/20 WITHOUT QUIRKS to be able to reliably core a 100 ton assault mech without suffering a single jam? 1.5 tons with skills is enough damage to KILL a 100 ton assault mech to the CT. Do you think it's acceptable for an UAC/20 WITHOUT QUIRKS to be able to KILL a 100 ton assault mech to the CT without a single jam (IS: 0.86 ^ 7 = 35%, C: 0.84 ^ 7 = 30%) 1/3 of the time? Go on record rather than dodging and being dismissive.

YueFei, on 31 August 2022 - 12:37 PM, said:

That's because, as I've said before, the game is far too complex to be easily captured by mathematics:

Bro what are you even rambling on about with your wacky woo woo tai chi quote? I'm not trying to "solve" MWO or turn it into tic tac toe. What's your point here? We can't better balance the game? It's too complex to even try? So we just accept it as is and give up?

Do we wait for a properly accredited, properly credentialed, forum veteran in good standing like Meep Meep to make a post that goes 7 pages and gets 6,000 views in order to get an issue addressed? (no disrespect meant to Meep Meep, peace be upon him)
https://mwomercs.com...whines-how-fix/

Let me provide you with a little wisdom here YueFei, some instruction if you will: The end result of your fatalistic, do-nothing until the entire community makes a massive stink, non-balancing attitude is that only the most obvious and egregious issues can be fixed.

Anything more subtle, like the excessive ammo tax on 2, 5 and 20 caliber and gauss weapons, garbage Targeting Computers, garbage STREAKs, weird UAC/10,20 jam delays, IS-AC/20 HSL 1 glitch, go unnoticed and never get fixed. They degraded the gaming experience year after year and that's sad.

Aidan Crenshaw, on 31 August 2022 - 08:53 PM, said:

Did we even consider that a weapon that unjams starts on cooldown? I mean, that significantly ramps up the UAC20s downtime after a jam in comparison to the UAC10. Just sayin'.

7.5s UAC/10 jam + 2.5s UAC/10 cooldown = 10s

6s UAC/20 jam + 4s UAC/20 cooldown = 10s

There's no additional time lost for a UAC/20 jam to clear compared to a UAC/10, yet another glaring indicator that UAC/20 jam mechanics are OP.

(Not sure if you're aware but the cooldown bar of the weapon continues where the jam occurred so if you fire the weapon once and then wait to fire it again near the end of the red bar and it jams, when the jam clears you only have that small portion of the red bar that was remaining to wait to clear. There isn't a total reset of the weapon cooldown. I eventually figured this out from observation and testing with a stopwatch in the Academy.)

[Curccu]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

This is lamest response possible: pulling rank.
X has played since blah blah in competitive blah blah.
Pulling rank isn't an argument.
Pulling rank isn't analysis.
It's an intellectually lazy tactic with the sole purpose of stifling analysis and basically telling someone to just shut up without explicitly telling them to shut up.

Rank? Nope I pulled experience vs inexperience. I have no reason to repeat same words what quicksilver and others have already said... explained WHY UAC20s are mediocre/bad.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

You clowns...

Always a best way for a beginner to get veterans behind his ideas to insult them.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

...just blanket declare the UAC/20 to be mediocre without the slightest analysis as to why. The C-UAC/20 is the only clan weapon with an HSL value of 1. The IS-UAC/20 and MRM40 are the only IS weapons with an HSL value of 1. (The vanilla IS-AC/20 also has an HSL value of 1 but that makes no sense and judging by some of the other wacky numbers I've seen so far in this game that's probably yet another glitch PGI is unaware of.)

Why is that? Why is the UAC/20 nearly unique in having an HSL value of 1? How much use would the weapon see, especially in clan mechs, if it's HSL was upped to 2? Perhaps it has something to do with PGI not wanting to see 80 damage repeatedly put out in less than 3/4 of a second by dual UAC/20's?

Large numbers of mechs cannot even mount the weapon due to it's slot requirements so that alone has an impact on how often you'll see it in competitive matches.

2xMRM40 heat penalty is only 1.61 heat and is so small that it is pretty much irrelevant.
With AC20 HSL I agree with you, it should be 2 IMO.

Assaults: Annihilators, King Crabs, Corsair-6R, CP-Sleipnir, Fafnirs, Maulers, Nightstar-9S, Viktor-9A1

Heavies: Catapult-K2, Jagermechs, Riflemens, Roughneck-BLT, Thanatos-5S, Warhammers.

That is 8 assault and 6 heavy chassis, some with multiple variants. All of those mechs can mount two UAC20s and have enough ammo to be effective. All medium mechs with torso ballistic hardpoint can easily mount one.
Clanside pretty much anything over 30 tons can mount at least 1 if it just has ballistic hardpoint.

HBK-IIC, MCII-B, SNV-Boiler, FNR-6U and NSR-9S has UAC20 HSL+1 quirk, you test and see how OP those mechs are no need to speculate.

From my experience HBK-IIC the best UAC20 mech in the game and it can do good sometimes but it is far from OP.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

Curccu, if you're the kind of poster who likes to pull rank, please stop posting in my threads. I'm trying to improve the game and posters like you just get in the way.

Again I didn't pull rank (But because you demanded... my rank 272 in Jarls vs your 13307), I told you that multiple posters with massive amount of experience who playtest pretty much all weapons after all changes against very skilled opponents and see if those are good in practice also and not just on paper have explained why UAC20 isn't OP and doesn't deserve nerf. But you still trying to nerf it because you decided it is OP and you cannot be reasoned with.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

What happened to this mysterious "Oxide"? I don't see that name in the store.

Jenner Oxide can be found in game store.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

No he's not "specifically saying" he can't mount it on his Locust. He used a light mech he owned as an example to try and broadly imply that UAC/20's can't be mounted on light mechs which is wrong.

I'll admit I'm not native English speaker BUT as far as I understand this language he asks pretty specifically, can he mount one on his Locust and knows it is not possible. See quote below.

Hand of Vecna, on 30 August 2022 - 08:09 PM, said:

Thanks for doing the math! Can I strap one of those UAC 20s on my Locust?

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

The ADR-D has only 1 ballistic mount, a 20% ballistic cooldown quirk, and +ammo quirks. Only the ADR-CN has 2 ballistic mounts, 1/2 the ballistic cooldown and no +ammo quirks, so no the Adder wouldn't be better off with dual UAC/5's. FAIL.

Again your inexperience and lack of understanding how this game works slaps you in the face.
Adder is omni mech, you can change omnipods however you want... Set of 8 isn't some miracle that shouldn't be broken.
This is how I run my UAC5 adder-d 2xUAC5 + ERML and no it is not really a good mech, but I like to play some "fun" mechs in quickplay sometimes.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

What are those reasons? No analysis provided, just a blanket statement. No proof that it's not used.

Jesus f crist... That is my observation and friends I play with. Play ten thousand games, write up to your excel how many UAC20s you see in those games, that is how you know it is not used much. I got some 14k quickplay matches, thousands of FP and hundreds of comp games under my belt and UAC20 has ever never been popular it is rare sight on battlefield.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

The only reason I removed the UAC/20 was because of the 4 ton ammo tax. Once again, this is why I wrote a forum post trying to fix that issue. Otherwise it was an awesome weapon on my SHD-5M. This was the build:
https://mwo.nav-alph...ba2bada6_SHD-5M

This is the UAC/10 build:
https://mwo.nav-alph...dada5fad_SHD-5M

The UAC/10 build has 3 tons of ammo but doesn't need 3 tons. It never ran out of ammo with 2.5 tons in play testing but came very close to running out a couple of times so I upped it to 3 ton just to be safe. It doesn't matter because the horrible jam duration of the UAC/10 ruins the build.

Yes UAC10 doesn't work for you in your shadowhawk-5M build, it doesn't mean that UAC10 is bad or that UAC20 is OP in general.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

What one needs to ask is to what degree would UAC/20's be used if the +2 salvos / ton ammo I proposed was implemented for them and if their HSL was upped to 2.

Probably would make it a bit more used but wasn't this thread about UAC20 being OP and needing nerf instead of needing a buff to be more used?

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

One must be careful in making references to the "competitive scene" because it's very common for anything and everything other than those few most optimized builds to be excluded. It was common in the Dota 2 Internationals for many heroes to be ignored and to only see a handful of hero's used over and over again. (Chen, Enigma, Pudge, blah blah snore snore) That said less about unused hero's being "bad" and more about what was used as likely being OP or being best in class for some critical niche.

Yep Comp people are using the best available, some rules in some tournaments try to make teams use wider variety of weapons and mechs by limiting how many times some chassis is allowed to be used in a match. But in general you don't see weak mechs, weapons or builds in comp games because you don't want to give any edge to your opponent.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

Humility? Me? YOU'RE the one who needs to be more humble. Why is it always the other guy who needs to be humble? Rather than pulling rank, have the humility to recognized the truth when it's staring you in the face and not blithely dismissing it with a glib "spreadsheets don't work"? Don't work? Huh?

Yes small amount of humility for you wouldn't be bad. Like you said why is it always the other guy who needs to be humble? Use mirror. I think it is common sense that the one with less experience should be the humble one and we are not talking about any small amount of experience we are talking about like 50 times more experience between you and quicksilver

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

1 ton of UAC/20 ammo with skills is enough damage to core a 100 ton assault mech. Do you think it's acceptable for a UAC/20 WITHOUT QUIRKS to be able to reliably core a 100 ton assault mech without suffering a single jam? 1.5 tons with skills is enough damage to KILL a 100 ton assault mech to the CT. Do you think it's acceptable for an UAC/20 WITHOUT QUIRKS to be able to KILL a 100 ton assault mech to the CT without a single jam (IS: 0.86 ^ 7 = 35%, C: 0.84 ^ 7 = 30%) 1/3 of the time? Go on record rather than dodging and being dismissive.

Yes it is acceptable because you will never get high hit percent to that CT unless opponent is total tool that is difference between your spreadsheet OP and real life not so OP.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

Do we wait for a properly accredited, properly credentialed, forum veteran in good standing like Meep Meep to make a post that goes 7 pages and gets 6,000 views in order to get an issue addressed? (no disrespect meant to Meep Meep, peace be upon him)
https://mwomercs.com...whines-how-fix/

Well it does help that player has reasonable amount of experience and in his case weapon was really going to OP side compared to other weapons, in your UAC20 case that is not the so.

[feeWAIVER]

The Oxide is the Jenner Hero mech.

[RockmachinE]

The UAC20 is in a good place it doesn't need changes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

I don't want to be glib but comparing UAC/20's to SNUB's makes my point right there. You have to pick what may be currently the most OP weapon in the game to make your case.

What one needs to ask is to what degree would UAC/20's be used if the +2 salvos / ton ammo I proposed was implemented for them and if their HSL was upped to 2.

One must be careful in making references to the "competitive scene" because it's very common for anything and everything other than those few most optimized builds to be excluded. It was common in the Dota 2 Internationals for many heroes to be ignored and to only see a handful of hero's used over and over again. (Chen, Enigma, Pudge, blah blah snore snore) That said less about unused hero's being "bad" and more about what was used as likely being OP or being best in class for some critical niche.

Snubs aren't the most OP weapon, but if the UAC20 was actually as OP as you described, don't you think it would be used just like the Snubs, don't you find it the least bit suspicious that there aren't "UAC20s are OP" a plenty like there were for some weapons that either are potentially too powerful or swing heavily depending on the situation (like LRMs)? It is important to note that no one really brawled until Snubs got changed, that should tell you something. That most brawling weapons just aren't worth the risk and in matches where brawling can't really be avoided (where the average tonnage is less than 50 tons roughly) UAC20s have a velocity and duration that means you miss or spread damage unnecessarily and potentially face tanking. I'm well aware the trappings of looking at the meta, but if the UAC20 was as OP as you described, it would BE in the meta. It isn't and I've been trying to explain to you why it isn't.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

This issue isn't limited to the UAC/20. All 20 caliber weapons and other heavy weapons have to deal with it. MRM40's, Heavy Gauss, Heavy PPC, etc.

Heavy PPCs and MRM40s are better off than your UAC20. MRM40s spread damage more but are lighter for similar heat efficiency, but also don't jam so their damage is more consistent and can be run in the side torsos with an XL, now I would argue they aren't in the best place right now but I'd still take them sooner than the UAC20 barring super quirked mechs like the HBK-4H. Heavy PPCs have a range and tonnage advantage, comparing them isn't really appropriate, idk if they are in the best of spots but I take them more than I do UAC20s, especially on the heavier end of IS mechs. Heavy Gauss you are correct, for the limitations it imposes, it currently isn't worth it so by all means all behind changes to it.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

My mech is "bad"? Really? That's it folks, Quicksilver has proclaimed my LBX2 RFL-3C to be "bad". I am undone. Except it's not bad. I consider my LBX2 RFL-3C to be the most dangerous mech I own. I didn't expect that but that's the way it seems in combat. I have cooldown skills maxed and +5% range (it comes with a massive +25% range in quirks). The mech can instantly switch targets and start pouring out damage and suppressive fire at 1,050 meters.

Cool story, there are plenty of mechs that do that, and many are better off (Sun Spider D is FotM currently for that). I may have jumped the gun on calling it bad, but it is far from optimized or optimal for the role that it plays.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

Bad compared to what? AC/2's? LBX2's destroy AC/2's so I won't even discuss that. UAC/2's? UAC/2's means 4 more tons of weight. The mech has an XL engine and moves at 77kph with skills.

It's funny you won't discuss the one thing where your logic doesn't make sense. LBX2s due to spread are objectively worse than AC2s and UAC2s. So what if they crit better, that typically only translates to increased damage against structure which is a bit late to bother with. They also spread damage worse and trigger misses where you otherwise wouldn't have. It's the reason no build optimized that boats 2s uses LBX or really why no dakka build uses LBX, the only builds that leverage LBX are Clan brawlers and that is because face time becomes more important to limit than spread.
Now with UAC2s, you can drop one and run 3 for similar sustained DPS but much better burst DPS but like you mention why run it on the RFL-3C when you could just run the DGN-5N? I'd say the RFL-3C sits in a weird place with its quirks, it really just wants to be a platform for sword-n-board builds like an AC20+2 Snubs but the velocity isn't quite right to get them synced liked you would want.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 September 2022 - 07:26 AM.

[LordNothing]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 31 August 2022 - 08:53 PM, said:

Did we even consider that a weapon that unjams starts on cooldown? I mean, that significantly ramps up the UAC20s downtime after a jam in comparison to the UAC10. Just sayin'.

there are a few ambiguities about the mechanics that have a big effect on your typical spreadsheet warriors.

burst fire for example. games operate by timestamps usually. when you fire it sets a time stamp for some point in the future when the cooldown completes. every frame you check those timestamps to generate events that you have to handle. it occured to me that the burst is actually a second timestamp for when to fire the next round, completely not affecting the dps maths. that is assuming pgi implemented it in a way that makes sense.

spreadsheet fu does not account for the delay required to tap the mouse a second time. to maximize dps, the double tap cycle should happen as fast as possible, easy with a macro. however if you have a configuration that induces ghost heat, then a minimum half a second delay should be assumed. dps is irrelevant if you dont have the heat capacity for another tap.

its also made more problematic when a weapon can self ghost heat. like with dual uac20 setups you really got to be careful about that. every shot accompanied by a half second delay with the whole salvo spread over 2 seconds. its better off to tap and duck that provided you wont overheat in the process. and in this case dps is again irrelevant as you will need to cool off and are at the mercy of your heat sink configuration and quirks.

the devil is in the details, and spreadsheet warriors can only account for things which they can quantify. and for the record i am also a spreadsheet warrior. it is possible to get lost in the math.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 September 2022 - 01:06 PM.

[Bud Crue]

I don't remember Chris Lowery's main account handle, but this OP sure sounds like an alt.

[MechMaster059]

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Rank? Nope I pulled experience vs inexperience. I have no reason to repeat same words what quicksilver and others have already said... explained WHY UAC20s are mediocre/bad.

"Pulling rank" is an expression, and yes you did pull rank. Since English isn't your first language you appear to be prone to making only literal interpretations of what people say, kind of like a computer reading text. I wasn't talking about your literal rank within the game. You were vomiting a bunch of credentials onto the thread which have zero relevance to the discussion. This is THE most tired and typical tactic forum veterans use to get people to shut up.

Every new thread I've created has been numbers based and the problems with the numbers have been obvious and glaring in each case to anyone who can think objectively.

8 tons / 8 slots for a targeting computer: dumb.
UAC/20 having less jam chance and duration than the UAC/10: dumb
Clan Gauss 150 dmg / ton of ammo: dumb (180 with skills which still sucks)
2 caliber ammo tax forcing mechs to carry absurd amounts of ammo: dumb
(Enjoy this video of JGx D A T A being forced to cannibalize the armor on his legs and arms in order to carry a whopping 10.5 tons of ammo to feed the 4xUAC/2's on his Sun Spider D:
https://youtu.be/yLGk_Timj8U?t=19)

I don't need 5 years of experience playing MWO to figure out these things are dumb.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Always a best way for a beginner to get veterans behind his ideas to insult them.

What a terribly naive view you have of human nature. Ganging up on anyone who isn't long established on the forum and drowning out their posts with irrelevant minutia or telling them to "learn to play" or pulling rank on them is standard operating procedure for forum veterans. It's the norm. Forum veterans who don't engage in this kind of behavior are rare and the exception. So far I have identified only 2 such exceptional veteran forum posters here:

Meep Meep
LordNothing

Don't try to argue things would be different if I adopted a different style or showed more deference. They wouldn't be different. I know this from decades of experience with computer game forums and it's not just me. I've seen meaningful posts from other less established posters get trashed by forum veterans on various game forums and their tactics are always the same.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

2xMRM40 heat penalty is only 1.61 heat and is so small that it is pretty much irrelevant.
With AC20 HSL I agree with you, it should be 2 IMO.

Assaults: blah blah

Heavies: blah blah

blah blah blah lots of minutia about various heavy/assault mechs

In true forum veteran style, you and your fellow posters have done a great job dragging this thread way off into the weeds. Now we're analyzing all sorts of different mechs and builds and this thread has been turned into a referendum on general UAC/20s usage/balance. None of this crap is relevant. This thread is focused SPECIFICALLY on an UAC JAM MECHANICS. Here's what's relevant:

There is a steady progression of UAC jam delay and jam chance increasing with caliber as appropriate which gets sharply reversed with the UAC/20. The raw jam duration of the UAC/10 is long and causes problems with using the weapon effectively.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Again I didn't pull rank (But because you demanded... my rank 272 in Jarls vs your 13307), I told you that multiple posters with massive amount of experience who playtest pretty much all weapons after all changes against very skilled opponents and see if those are good in practice also and not just on paper have explained why UAC20 isn't OP and doesn't deserve nerf. But you still trying to nerf it because you decided it is OP and you cannot be reasoned with.

It's a figure of expression and yes you did pull rank. Rank 272 in Jarls... LOL I don't care what your literal game rank is.

I never said the UAC/20 was generally OP. You inferred that on your own. I said the JAM MECHANICS on the UAC/20 were "OP as hell", which they are, and this thread is focused on fixing that PARTICULAR ASPECT of the weapon.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Again your inexperience and lack of understanding how this game works slaps you in the face.
Adder is omni mech, you can change omnipods however you want... Set of 8 isn't some miracle that shouldn't be broken.
This is how I run my UAC5 adder-d 2xUAC5 + ERML and no it is not really a good mech, but I like to play some "fun" mechs in quickplay sometimes.

LOL... OK you got me there. I was wrong about that. It's possible to mount 2xUAC/5s on an ADR-D. (Not sure how you're installing the ADR-CN side torso's since I don't see the CN omni components as choices for the ADR-D in the mech lab but it's a moot point because installing an ADR-B Left Arm provides a 2nd ballistic hardpoint anyway.)

I do NOT concede that your build is "better". I remember the guy who killed me had some kind of small lasers equipped as well. My best guess is that his build was something like:
https://mwo.nav-alph...=12759b75_ADR-D

Obviously I can't possibly know his exact armor layout but this build has slightly more DPS and DOUBLE the Alpha of your build. Your build is just different. The extra range your build has would make it safer but it sure as hell isn't a better brawler.

Congratulations on beating this dead horse into the ground. I'm done talking about the ADR-D in this thread.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Jesus f crist... That is my observation and friends I play with. Play ten thousand games, write up to your excel how many UAC20s you see in those games, that is how you know it is not used much. I got some 14k quickplay matches, thousands of FP and hundreds of comp games under my belt and UAC20 has ever never been popular it is rare sight on battlefield.

That's really great. Whether or not the the UAC/20 is "popular" or seen much is totally irrelevant to this thread.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yes UAC10 doesn't work for you in your shadowhawk-5M build, it doesn't mean that UAC10 is bad or that UAC20 is OP in general.

Yes it does mean the UAC/10 is bad because the jam delay is so long that it's only worth mounting on mechs with a jam duration reduction quirk. I never said the UAC/20 was OP in general.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Probably would make it a bit more used but wasn't this thread about UAC20 being OP and needing nerf instead of needing a buff to be more used?

See, you missed the point of this thread. The point of this thread isn't to dump on the UAC/20 in general and make it out to be some kind of scary game-breaking weapon. The point of this thread is to rebalance ONE PARTICULAR ASPECT of the weapon.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yep Comp people are using the best available, some rules in some tournaments try to make teams use wider variety of weapons and mechs by limiting how many times some chassis is allowed to be used in a match. But in general you don't see weak mechs, weapons or builds in comp games because you don't want to give any edge to your opponent.

This continued discussion of the "competitive scene" is a gigantic tangent that's not relevant to this discussion. What is and isn't used in competitive play would require it's own in-depth thread and there are a variety of factors influencing competitive build decisions that go way beyond the scope of this thread.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yes small amount of humility for you wouldn't be bad. Like you said why is it always the other guy who needs to be humble? Use mirror. I think it is common sense that the one with less experience should be the humble one and we are not talking about any small amount of experience we are talking about like 50 times more experience between you and quicksilver

Claiming I need more humility is just a smear to distract from the topic. I made a straight-forward post presenting obvious numbers and as a result got ganged up on by the usual status-quo defending losers that infest every game forum. "Learn to play", "be more humble"... blah blah blah. How's this for humility:

I could say you guys have done a horrible job arguing against my thesis but that would be giving you clowns too much credit. You haven't argued against it at all, you've attacked my use of spread sheets(?), gone off on long tangents about the UAC/20 in general, drilled deep into the minutia of the ADR-D, blabbed about how much more experience you have with the game, etc etc.

The only actual counter-argument presented so far by YueFei is that the UAC/20 needs favorable jam mechanics to compensate for the fact that it's a brawling weapon and thus suffers more severe consequences for experiencing a jam. (It's harder to get to cover and wait for the weapon to come back online because the enemy is closer to you.)

I reject this argument on the basis that the very low salvo count / ton of ammo on the UAC/20 WAY over-compensates for any such risks with brawling due to making long streaks of fire without getting a jam too likely. (Not much consequences to face if the weapon never jams before your opponent is dead)

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yes it is acceptable because you will never get high hit percent to that CT unless opponent is total tool that is difference between your spreadsheet OP and real life not so OP.

Nope, not acceptable. A UAC weapon that doesn't jam isn't a UAC weapon. It's a cannon that is totally superior to LBX's and vanilla AC's if it never jams. The fact that it jams is what prevents it from becoming OP. The low salvo count / ton of ammo on the UAC/20 weapons means long streaks of fire with no jam are too likely.

I only used the CT of an assault mech to emphasize the point. It doesn't mater where you hit the enemy mech. If the UAC weapon never jams it becomes just plain superior to ACs and LBXs and many other weapons.

Curccu, on 01 September 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well it does help that player has reasonable amount of experience and in his case weapon was really going to OP side compared to other weapons, in your UAC20 case that is not the so.

Interesting how a properly accredited and credentialed forum veteran in good standing automatically has their posts perceived as being legitimate without having to put up with a bunch of buffoons piling into their thread telling them to learn to play and be humble.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

Snubs aren't the most OP weapon, but if the UAC20 was actually as OP as you described, ... don't you find it the least bit suspicious that there aren't "UAC20s are OP" ... but if the UAC20 was as OP as you described, ...

Which weapon do you think is the most OP?

Enjoy this video of JGx D A T A stating that the recent heat nerf to SNUBs didn't go far enough and that they're still OP: https://youtu.be/OMqzgboWmv8?t=93

"Is it enough to stop the real problem? Which is the lights and mediums that go around with 2 snub noses and twist-RMs (? SRMs with twisting ?) uh 3-4 small lasers... no... not at all. Why? Because the increase in damage that was given to snub noses is way more than the heat that is getting increased."

-- JGx D A T A

I assume you consider JGx D A T A to be a properly accredited and credentialed veteran forum poster in good standing and thus won't be so quick dismiss his opinion.

I never said UAC/20's were OP in general. You and some other posters have sidetracked the thread and made it look like that's what I said. I should have done a better job of preventing you guys from doing that. I only said UAC/20 JAM MECHANICS are OP.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

Heavy PPCs and MRM40s are better off than your UAC20. blah blah blah

Look Quicksilver, I respect you. You clearly have a great deal of knowledge about the game and you're the only person who's made a productive contribution to this thread so far. That being said, this thread isn't meant to be some in-depth discussion about overall UAC/20 balance or prevalence. It's not a discussion about various mechs or the competitive scene. I don't think you intend to but the practical result of discussing all this minutia is that it's derailing the thread and here we are now with multi-page long replies that probably no one will bother to read.

This thread is solely focused on UAC JAM BALANCE, across ALL of the calibers, not just the UAC/20, though the issues with the UAC/20's jam mechanics are the most egregious.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

Cool story, there are plenty of mechs that do that, and many are better off (Sun Spider D is FotM currently for that). I may have jumped the gun on calling it bad, but it is far from optimized or optimal for the role that it plays.

OK.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

It's funny you won't discuss the one thing where your logic doesn't make sense. Blah blah blah

I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not getting into the minutia of various weapons, that's not what this thread is about.

LordNothing, on 01 September 2022 - 01:04 PM, said:

to maximize dps, the double tap cycle should happen as fast as possible,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The 2nd firing in a double tap does NOT reset the weapon cooldown. It's totally free as long as the UAC doesn't jam. Even the 1/4-1/3 of a second it takes to fire a salvo of rounds doesn't stop the red cooldown bar from going down upon the 2nd firing of the weapon. (Just verified this in the Academy)

Bud Crue, on 01 September 2022 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't remember Chris Lowery's main account handle, but this OP sure sounds like an alt.

LOL. If I was a PGI employee do you think I'd be here on the forums making my case? I'd be fixing the game.

Edited by MechMaster059, 01 September 2022 - 09:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

Look Quicksilver, I respect you. You clearly have a great deal of knowledge about the game and you're the only person who's made a productive contribution to this thread so far. That being said, this thread isn't meant to be some in-depth discussion about overall UAC/20 balance or prevalence. It's not a discussion about various mechs or the competitive scene. I don't think you intend to but the practical result of discussing all this minutia is that it's derailing the thread and here we are now with multi-page long replies that probably no one will bother to read.

This thread is solely focused on UAC JAM BALANCE, across ALL of the calibers, not just the UAC/20, though the issues with the UAC/20's jam mechanics are the most egregious.

While I get that, you can't look at balance changes in isolation, ever. Balance is a tightly coupled and complex system. I'm cool with normalizing jam times, it just can't be done in isolation if it effectively nerfs/buffs weapons that didn't deserve that. PGI has done that in the past and they got hazed for it (rightfully so).

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

Which weapon do you think is the most OP?

Enjoy this video of JGx D A T A stating that the recent heat nerf to SNUBs didn't go far enough and that they're still OP: https://youtu.be/OMqzgboWmv8?t=93

"Is it enough to stop the real problem? Which is the lights and mediums that go around with 2 snub noses and twist-RMs (? SRMs with twisting ?) uh 3-4 small lasers... no... not at all. Why? Because the increase in damage that was given to snub noses is way more than the heat that is getting increased."

-- JGx D A T A

I assume you consider JGx D A T A to be a properly accredited and credentialed veteran forum poster in good standing and thus won't be so quick dismiss his opinion.

I would disagree since lights and mediums probably have needed a tool to annoy enemies since MGs got nerfed which left them with really only light PPCs, Snubs at least offer another tool for weight classes that have traditionally struggled in the game. The weapons that were traditionally used before Light PPCs and Snubs got buffed were sort of bad which is what the real issue is.

I haven't played comp in a minute so it could be that the environment is better for lights/mediums than it traditionally has been but I have my doubts about that. Comp is generally less demanding for DPS since you don't have to carry as hard so good builds between the two modes are slightly different.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 September 2022 - 10:05 PM.

[YueFei]

Spherical Cows may be a useful thought experiment, but not what you'd design your farm around. To ignore "minutiae" is to lose the plot. The devil is in the details. If you're not willing to put in the effort to engage on others' well thought out points, then frankly you're not worth engaging in discussion with.

[Knownswift]

Bud Crue, on 01 September 2022 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't remember Chris Lowery's main account handle, but this OP sure sounds like an alt.

Greatest burn of 2022 right here.

[Curccu]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

2 caliber ammo tax forcing mechs to carry absurd amounts of ammo: dumb
(Enjoy this video of JGx D A T A being forced to cannibalize the armor on his legs and arms in order to carry a whopping 10.5 tons of ammo to feed the 4xUAC/2's on his Sun Spider D:
https://youtu.be/yLGk_Timj8U?t=19)

I don't need 5 years of experience playing MWO to figure out these things are dumb.

You clearly do because there is no caliber 2 ammo tax. Why is data FORCED to have enough ammo to do almost 1700 damage + 168 extra from skilltree? Caliber 2, 5 and 20 have very similar damage per ton of ammo, 10 is freak with way higher damage potential.

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

Congratulations on beating this dead horse into the ground. I'm done talking about the ADR-D in this thread.

If you don't want to talk about Shadowhawks, Adders, mrm40s, AC20s why did YOU bring them up to this discussion?

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

See, you missed the point of this thread. The point of this thread isn't to dump on the UAC/20 in general and make it out to be some kind of scary game-breaking weapon. The point of this thread is to rebalance ONE PARTICULAR ASPECT of the weapon.

I never said UAC/20's were OP in general. You and some other posters have sidetracked the thread and made it look like that's what I said. I should have done a better job of preventing you guys from doing that. I only said UAC/20 JAM MECHANICS are OP.

This thread is solely focused on UAC JAM BALANCE, across ALL of the calibers, not just the UAC/20, though the issues with the UAC/20's jam mechanics are the most egregious.

I never said the UAC/20 was generally OP. You inferred that on your own. I said the JAM MECHANICS on the UAC/20 were "OP as hell", which they are, and this thread is focused on fixing that PARTICULAR ASPECT of the weapon.

Yet you replied to Quicksilver like this earlier. See below.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 10:16 PM, said:

"he UAC20 is probably the weakest of the UACs so any nerf of their jamming needs to be coincide with buffs to other stats on the weapon."

Nope. The jam numbers on the UAC/20 are OP as hell and deserve straight up nerfs with no compensation at all.

MechMaster059, on 30 August 2022 - 10:16 PM, said:

Enjoy this video of JGx D A T A stating that the recent heat nerf to SNUBs didn't go far enough and that they're still OP: https://youtu.be/OMqzgboWmv8?t=93

"Is it enough to stop the real problem? Which is the lights and mediums that go around with 2 snub noses and twist-RMs (? SRMs with twisting ?) uh 3-4 small lasers... no... not at all. Why? Because the increase in damage that was given to snub noses is way more than the heat that is getting increased."

-- JGx D A T A

I assume you consider JGx D A T A to be a properly accredited and credentialed veteran forum poster in good standing and thus won't be so quick dismiss his opinion.

Wrong.
Data is stupidly good player who loves his assaults (and a bit heavies) hates lights and mediums only makes videos about them because they are "OP" even though his direwolves and other favorite mechs perform a lot better in his own hands.
Most of Datas ideas get shot down in here forums because they are biased towards assault mech superiority that he likes.
BTW data is part of Cauldron (group of players who are responsible of balancing this game atm.) and very often rest of the group doesn't agree with data.


But hey have fun in this and other threads like this of yours where only you can be correct and everyone else is loser, clown, idiot and what other names you have called us. Nothing will change like you want if you make everyone your enemy by your own disrespectful behavior.
Like YueFei wrote "If you're not willing to put in the effort to engage on others' well thought out points, then frankly you're not worth engaging in discussion with."

[LordNothing]

MechMaster059, on 01 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The 2nd firing in a double tap does NOT reset the weapon cooldown. It's totally free as long as the UAC doesn't jam. Even the 1/4-1/3 of a second it takes to fire a salvo of rounds doesn't stop the red cooldown bar from going down upon the 2nd firing of the weapon. (Just verified this in the Academy)

the time between taps doesn't matter if both taps fire. you can fire again after cd. dps is just 2*damage/cooldown. its not the same if it jams. other than having only 1x damage, cooldown needs to be replaced with the total cycle time. you do have to go through the full cooldown time in addition to the jam time, and the delay between taps also counts. that represents either human reaction time to spam click or a self imposed delay to avoid ghost heat (0.5s). so the math for a jammed cycle is damage/(tapDelay+jamTIme+cooldown). i should also note that there is a minimum tap delay, but im not sure what that is.

if you want to figure total dps, accounting for jams its: totalDPS = (dtDps*(1-jamChance)+jamDps*jamChance).

also assuming that uacs wont jam is either very optimistic or very naïve. its important to characterize the behavior of both branches in proper proportions, then you can make better comparisons between autocannons. the no jam branch is going to happen more, but the jam branch is going to have a bigger impact due to longer timings. how you use the weapon also matters, if you are trying to brawl with a uac10, no wonder you think its weak.

burst is a different thing than double tap, and i was just using that as an example of an ambiguity. a feature of some acs that fire multiple rounds per shot (including 10s and 20s). this is determined by numFiring and volleyDelay from the xml i believe. this does not factor in to dps calculations because its mediated by a second timestamp independant of cooldown.

an aside, independant of the above. i noticed there is a variable ShotsDuringCooldown, which is set to 1 for all uacs. i just assumed this was a flag to tell the code that this weapon allows double tap. but then it would be called ShootsDurringCooldown. this indicates to me that it is not a flag to enable the dt mechanic, but the number of taps per cd. makes me wonder if you can do tripple taps as a balancing device.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 September 2022 - 02:09 PM.

[Hand of Vecna]

This thread is like a novel.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'm cool with normalizing jam times, it just can't be done in isolation if it effectively nerfs/buffs weapons that didn't deserve that.

Indeed. I understand game balance is tightrope one must walk carefully. I'm not looking to nerf the jam mechanics of the UAC/20 into the ground. I just want them to make sense.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2022 - 10:04 PM, said:

I would disagree since lights and mediums probably have needed a tool to annoy enemies since MGs got nerfed which left them with really only light PPCs, Snubs at least offer another tool for weight classes that have traditionally struggled in the game. The weapons that were traditionally used before Light PPCs and Snubs got buffed were sort of bad which is what the real issue is.

An interesting position. I currently own only 1 light mech (ACH-SH) so my experience with lights is too limited to know for sure either way. I do find it a little sus that SNUBs have strong alpha AND strong AoE. The fact that it does AoE damage is really cool and unique. I wonder if a better nerf would have been to lower the damage from 10/5 down to 8/4. This would largely preserve the unique AoE aspect of the weapon while toning down the alpha.

YueFei, on 01 September 2022 - 10:58 PM, said:

If you're not willing to put in the effort to engage on others' well thought out points, then frankly you're not worth engaging in discussion with.

How ironic that you, of all people, would says this since I've credited YOU multiple times as being the only poster who offered a legitimate counter-argument in this thread so far and I responded with a counter-explanation specific to the topic.

You accusing me of not engaging isn't surprising though, most people aren't nearly objective enough give proper credit where credit is due. Rare indeed is the person who values objectivity.

Curccu, on 02 September 2022 - 12:33 AM, said:

You clearly do because there is no caliber 2 ammo tax. Why is data FORCED to have enough ammo to do almost 1700 damage + 168 extra from skilltree? Caliber 2, 5 and 20 have very similar damage per ton of ammo, 10 is freak with way higher damage potential.

DON'T YOU EVER CALL 10 CALIBER WEAPONS 'FREAKS' DUE TO THEIR DAMAGE / TON OF AMMO.
Holy flying crap Batman! OUTRAGEOUS... I can't even believed you just said that...

10 Caliber weapons have normal damage / ton of ammo. 2, 5, 20 caliber, and gauss weapons are the FREAKS. YOU GOT THAT!? WELL DO YA PUNK!?!?

You clearly missed my other post on the topic of the inconsistent damage / ton of ammo for various weapons here:
https://mwomercs.com...nconsistencies/
(Feel free to post a reply and necro that thread for me. I consider it the most important post I've made so far.)

If 2 caliber weapons had a damage / ton of ammo similar to 10 caliber weapons, JGx D A T A would only need to equip 8 tons of ammo instead of 10.5 and could put some much needed armor back on his legs and arms. (He dies a leg death in the 2nd match: https://youtu.be/yLGk_Timj8U?t=692)

Curccu, on 02 September 2022 - 12:33 AM, said:

If you don't want to talk about Shadowhawks, Adders, mrm40s, AC20s why did YOU bring them up to this discussion?

I needed to bring up the Shadowhawk because it was the impetus for writing this post in the first place. Everything else was in response to other posts. You kept bringing up the Adder because you didn't understand the double-meaning behind Hand of Vecna's post.

Curccu, on 02 September 2022 - 12:33 AM, said:

Yet you replied to Quicksilver like this earlier. See below.

This was my reply:
"Nope. The jam numbers on the UAC/20 are OP as hell and deserve straight up nerfs with no compensation at all."

I'm not sure if there's some language issue at work here Curccu but you often seem to be misinterpreting my posts. My quote that you present clearly shows me only claiming the "jam numbers" on the UAC/20 are "OP as hell". I never made a generalized statement about the UAC/20 being OP.

I can't keep replying to you if you're going to do stuff like this. It's just a waste of my time and dilutes the thread.

Curccu, on 02 September 2022 - 12:33 AM, said:

Wrong.
Data is stupidly good player who loves his assaults (and a bit heavies) hates lights and mediums only makes videos about them because they are "OP"

You don't think there's even a smidgeon of merit to what D A T A has to say? See how quick you are to dismiss someone you don't agree with Curccu? You're not nearly as objective as you think you are. Typical.

Curccu, on 02 September 2022 - 12:33 AM, said:

But hey have fun in this and other threads like this of yours where only you can be correct and everyone else is loser, clown, idiot and what other names you have called us. Nothing will change like you want if you make everyone your enemy by your own disrespectful behavior.
Like YueFei wrote "If you're not willing to put in the effort to engage on others' well thought out points, then frankly you're not worth engaging in discussion with."

You got me all wrong Curccu. You misunderstand what I'm doing here with you and other posters like you. I'm not trying to persuade you or win you over because posters like you aren't persuadable or winnable. You auto-resist any changes to the game in knee-jerk fashion no matter how compelling the evidence.

I'm here to SMASH people like you and expose you for the intellectual lightweights that you are to the rest of the community and the dev team in particular.

The dev team has a choice to make. They can either decide they don't like me too, do nothing and let issues in the game fester and have employees steadily leave the company for greener pastures, or they can act upon the issues I highlight to keep the game vibrant.

LordNothing, on 02 September 2022 - 01:49 PM, said:

other than having only 1x damage, cooldown needs to be replaced with the total cycle time. you do have to go through the full cooldown time in addition to the jam time

Wrong.

I thought this too. I noticed when a weapon came off of jam the red bar wasn't clear and I had to wait until it cleared to fire the weapon again. I assumed this wait duration was the full weapon cooldown. I spent at least a friggin half an hour with a stopwatch timing this remaining portion of the red bar after a UAC weapon comes off of jam and kept getting weird and inconsistent results. It was NEVER the full cooldown time. I kept trying to decipher if there was some algorithm determining this remaining time: 60% of cooldown for IS UACs? 70% of cooldown for Clan UACs? Why do the numbers keep changing every time I take a reading on my stopwatch!?!? LOL.

Then it occurred to me a couple of days later: Maybe the game is smart enough to remember where on the cooldown bar the weapon jammed and continue from that point once the weapon comes out of jam instead of doing a full cooldown refresh. Sure enough, if you double-tap any UAC weapon near the end of the cooldown and it jams, when it comes off of jam only that portion of the red bar that remains needs to finish. I already told you this in bullet point #1 in a prior reply to you in this thread. I said: "The red bar cooldown of the weapon picks up where it left off when the jam occurred and you cannot fire until the red bar finishes clearing."

https://mwomercs.com...43#entry6470443

I guess you didn't believe me. I verified this again a few minutes ago on my MCII-A with a C-UAC/20 and my SHD-5M with an IS-UAC/10. (I was able to fire through all 3.5 tons of UAC/20 ammo on my MCII-A without experiencing a single jam on the first attempt. The MCII-A does NOT have a jam chance reduction quirk though it does have a massive -35% jam duration quirk. Isn't that interesting? Do people need video proof of this to believe it? I can easily provide video proof of me firing through 3.5 tons of C-UAC/20 ammo without getting a single jam on my MCII-A if necessary.)

Hand of Vecna, on 02 September 2022 - 05:47 PM, said:

This thread is like a novel.

For what it's worth Vecna, I've seen you in game many times and I always feel a mild sense of dread when I see you on the opposing team because I know you're not a potato player. I always look forward to fighting you in one of your light mechs to see if my aim and reaction time is good enough to get the kill.

Edited by MechMaster059, 03 September 2022 - 01:37 AM.

[Curccu]

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

DON'T YOU EVER CALL 10 CALIBER WEAPONS 'FREAKS' DUE TO THEIR DAMAGE / TON OF AMMO.
Holy flying crap Batman! OUTRAGEOUS... I can't even believed you just said that...

10 Caliber weapons have normal damage / ton of ammo. 2, 5, 20 caliber, and gauss weapons are the FREAKS. YOU GOT THAT!? WELL DO YA PUNK!?!?

Nope 10 is the freak one.

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

If 2 caliber weapons had a damage / ton of ammo similar to 10 caliber weapons, JGx D A T A would only need to equip 8 tons of ammo instead of 10.5 and could put some much needed armor back on his legs and arms. (He dies a leg death in the 2nd match: https://youtu.be/yLGk_Timj8U?t=692)

a mech does not REQUIRE enough ammo to do almost 2000 damage in quickplay

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

This was my reply:
"Nope. The jam numbers on the UAC/20 are OP as hell and deserve straight up nerfs with no compensation at all."

Why is that "no compensation" part there? what does it mean explain please.

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

You don't think there's even a smidgeon of merit to what D A T A has to say? See how quick you are to dismiss someone you don't agree with Curccu? You're not nearly as objective as you think you are. Typical.

Sometimes, usually nope. You see I have known and read datas posts and suggestions since he was known IL mechwarrior Yeeeaars ago. 90% of datas post about nerfing something is about lights and medium mechs. never his beloved assaults.

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

You got me all wrong Curccu. You misunderstand what I'm doing here with you and other posters like you. I'm not trying to persuade you or win you over because posters like you aren't persuadable or winnable. You auto-resist any changes to the game in knee-jerk fashion now matter how compelling the evidence.

Oh I can be persuaded and won over easily, but are doing very ****** job of it.
I have never resisted any change as long as it would make game better, you wanting to nerf UAC20 jam without giving something to it in return would make it worse weapon as it already is.
And like I said in #3 post in this thread go a head make UAC10 jam better so 2,5,10,20 would be in line but don't nerf already bad weapon.

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

I'm here to SMASH people like you and expose you for the intellectual lightweights that you are to the rest of the community and the dev team in particular.

But you are only smashing in your own mind...

MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:

The dev team has a choice to make. They can either decide they don't like me too, do nothing and let issues in the game fester and have employees steadily leave the company for greener pastures, or they can act upon the issues I highlight to keep the game vibrant.

Devs don't even read these forums so you are wasting your breath.