MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:
You got me all wrong Curccu. You misunderstand what I'm doing here with you and other posters like you. I'm not trying to persuade you or win you over because posters like you aren't persuadable or winnable. You auto-resist any changes to the game in knee-jerk fashion no matter how compelling the evidence.
I'm here to SMASH people like you and expose you for the intellectual lightweights that you are to the rest of the community and the dev team in particular.
The dev team has a choice to make. They can either decide they don't like me too, do nothing and let issues in the game fester and have employees steadily leave the company for greener pastures, or they can act upon the issues I highlight to keep the game vibrant.
You do realize that the community is responsible for balance decisions these days, right? The community that you're essentially in the middle of insulting? Whether that's your intention or not, you're coming off as extremely self-absorbed. The tone we're getting is that you feel your analysis is perfect and that any other opinion could not ever possibly be correct. That is to say, the exact thing you're accusing the "forum veterans" of. Your position is inflexible and you seem complete uninterested in engaging with others who might have a different view. When you bring in examples and others try to discuss those examples with you, you discard the example and claim that they have nothing to do with the topic.
Even your position itself is difficult to fathom, since you claim that the UAC20 is not OP, but having a certain jam duration is extremely OP and should be changed with nothing done to make up for it. How exactly can both of these be true at the same time? If you make the change, how do you intend to keep an already niche weapon relevant?
10 caliber weapons don't reliably run out of ammo. I repeatedly see 2 caliber builds run out of ammo as a spectator. I experience it in my RFL-3C with LBX2's. If the game goes well the mech runs out of ammo 90% through the game and I'm not willing to strip off 1 ton of armor from each leg and 1/2 ton from each arm like D A T A does to keep it going because that would weaken the mech for the other 90% of the time.
You're wrong.
Curccu, on 03 September 2022 - 01:49 AM, said:
a mech does not REQUIRE enough ammo to do almost 2000 damage in quickplay
Except he does need 10.5 tons of ammo. In the video I linked D A T A does 1,540 in the 1st match. He starts with 9.5 tons of ammo (978 rounds) and ends up running out of ammo only 2/3rds into the match (notice the 8 / 8 at the top) and cannot finish killing an enemy mech standing right in front of him: https://youtu.be/yLGk_Timj8U?t=474
He has another video doing 1,700 damage in a Mauler armed with AC2's and 5's:
(You can deduce from the number of rounds of ammo that he's carrying 3 tons of AC2 and 8 tons of AC5 ammo for a total of 11 tons... even with all that ammo he still runs out trying to kill the last remaining Myst Lynx: https://youtu.be/uvR4WhLhv9k?t=400)
Curccu, on 03 September 2022 - 01:49 AM, said:
Why is that "no compensation" part there? what does it mean explain please.
If something is overpowered, you nerf it and leave it at that. There's no need to possibly create a new imbalance that causes problems by buffing some other aspect.
It's getting very boring going around in circles with you over basic reading comprehension and my patience for it is running out.
Curccu, on 03 September 2022 - 01:49 AM, said:
Sometimes, usually nope. You see I have known and read datas posts and suggestions since he was known IL mechwarrior Yeeeaars ago. 90% of datas post about nerfing something is about lights and medium mechs. never his beloved assaults.
The title of his video I linked to is: "MWO: Overbuffed Sun Spider drops 1500 damage"
The Sun Spider is a heavy mech, not a medium or light. Overbuffed means: made too powerful.
Curccu, on 03 September 2022 - 01:49 AM, said:
Oh I can be persuaded and won over easily, but are doing very ****** job of it.
I have never resisted any change as long as it would make game better, you wanting to nerf UAC20 jam without giving something to it in return would make it worse weapon as it already is.
And like I said in #3 post in this thread go a head make UAC10 jam better so 2,5,10,20 would be in line but don't nerf already bad weapon.
Your reply #3 was a simplistic one-liner that showed no recognition or understanding of the problem, just a vague request not to even touch the UAC/20's because you assume they're "bad weapons".
No, we're not giving UAC/20's "something in return" to distort and over-buff them along some different aspect. That's not how balance tuning works. We're nerfing an aspect of them that is OP and leaving it at that.
The nerf I'm proposing to UAC/20s is so mild most players won't even realize it has been nerfed as long as they also use the jam duration reduction skills.
Curccu, on 03 September 2022 - 01:49 AM, said:
Devs don't even read these forums so you are wasting your breath.
I find it hard to believe these forums have zero influence on the devs.
Verilligo, on 03 September 2022 - 07:54 AM, said:
The tone we're getting
Oh we got another one here folks...
"we're"... who the hell are you? Are you the spokesperson for the entire MWO community now?
Verilligo, on 03 September 2022 - 07:54 AM, said:
is that you feel your analysis is perfect and that any other opinion could not ever possibly be correct. That is to say, the exact thing you're accusing the "forum veterans" of. Your position is inflexible and you seem complete uninterested in engaging with others who might have a different view. When you bring in examples and others try to discuss those examples with you, you discard the example and claim that they have nothing to do with the topic.
Let's explore my treatment of other posters that you weren't smart enough to notice and credit me for:
"you feel your analysis is perfect and that any other opinion could not ever possibly be correct."
I acknowledged Quicksilver as making a productive contribution to this thread. I plan on updating my original post to incorporate some of his ideas.
FAIL
"you seem complete uninterested in engaging with others who might have a different view."
I acknowledged YueFei as having made the only legitimate counter-argument against nerfing the jam mechanics of UAC/20s and I offered a topic based rebuttal to his argument.
FAIL
"When you bring in examples and others try to discuss those examples with you"
I'm not the one who introduced discussion of the "competitive scene".
I'm not the one who introduced discussion of optimal heavy/assault mech weapon loadouts.
I'm not the one who tried to make fun of a poster for using spreadsheets to organize and present information.
Other posters did these things and they're way beyond the scope of this thread and/or not counter-arguments.
FAIL
You only see what you want to see Verilligo. You're not objective.
Verilligo, on 03 September 2022 - 07:54 AM, said:
Even your position itself is difficult to fathom, since you claim that the UAC20 is not OP, but having a certain jam duration is extremely OP and should be changed with nothing done to make up for it. How exactly can both of these be true at the same time? If you make the change, how do you intend to keep an already niche weapon relevant?
It's possible for a weapon to OP in one aspect and UP in another at the same time. This is called NUANCED ANALYSIS.
UAC/20's have an excessive ammo tax. I created a whole post attempting to fix that and got the usual treatment from forum trash telling me there's no problem and nothing should be done.
UAC/20's have GROSSLY OP jam mechanics. You don't "make up" for nerfing something that's very OP. You just flat out nerf it. There are gradations to nerfing. Nerfing something doesn't automatically mean nerfing it into the ground. The nerf I proposed would be barely noticeable as long as players used the jam skills. I basically proposed swapping the jam duration of the UAC/20 with the UAC/10 and buffing the jam duration skills to limit the impact of that swap on the UAC/20 and further boost the impact on the UAC/10 . In response to this very reasonable proposal, I got treated as though I was trying to destroy UAC/20's and remove them from the game. This kind of unhinged and totally blown out of proportion response is typical on game forums.
Rather than making broad simplistic statements like "the weapon isn't used much, let's do nothing" which only stifle's analysis and get's in the way of progress, a better course of action is to ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS AND FIX THEM.
Edited by MechMaster059, 03 September 2022 - 08:23 PM.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
UAC/20's have GROSSLY OP jam mechanics. You don't "make up" for nerfing something that's very OP. You just flat out nerf it. There are gradations to nerfing. Nerfing something doesn't automatically mean nerfing it into the ground. The nerf I proposed would be barely noticeable as long as players used the jam skills. I basically proposed swapping the jam duration of the UAC/20 with the UAC/10 and buffing the jam duration skills to limit the impact of that swap on the UAC/20 and further boost the impact on the UAC/10 . In response to this very reasonable proposal, I got treated as though I was trying to destroy UAC/20's and remove them from the game. This kind of unhinged and totally blown out of proportion response is typical on game forums.
Rather than making broad simplistic statements like "the weapon isn't used much, let's do nothing" which only stifle's analysis and get's in the way of progress, a better course of action is to ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS AND FIX THEM.
So you want to fix the UAC20 by making it worse and then changing skill nodes so that the UAC20 goes back to basically where it is right now? Effectively a near zero-sum change? Except that changing the skill node improves the other UACs, making them look even better than they do right now in comparison to the 20? Am I understanding this correctly?
If so, I don't understand. The other UACs generally are said to be performing fine. In fact, I have not seen any other claim that the UAC20 is overperforming. Yes, I know what the spreadsheet you came up with says, but the math does not seem to be supported by what is happening practically. That indicates to me that there may be conditions that are not being accounted for in your list of variables.
Also, please don't get pissy with me for pointing out the tone I'm hearing from your posts. Like I said, that may not be your intention at all. Sometimes it can be useful to have someone else say that maybe a person is getting a little too hot and passionate about a thing. Also I'd recommend making a new post if you're going to propose new conditions, rather than editing your original post. Most people these days will jump into the conversation at the last page, rather than starting from the very first. Edit the first post and everyone will be lost about changes you made and still work off whatever the original first post was.
Edited by Verilligo, 03 September 2022 - 07:48 PM.
So you want to fix the UAC20 by making it worse and then changing skill nodes so that the UAC20 goes back to basically where it is right now? Effectively a near zero-sum change? Except that changing the skill node improves the other UACs, making them look even better than they do right now in comparison to the 20? Am I understanding this correctly?
No stupid it's not a "zero-sum" change. The practical effect would be to keep the UAC/20 jam mechanics as they are now but being unable to use skills to improve it, a very small nerf that large swaths of the player base probably wouldn't even notice.
Yes, my relatively small buff of increasing the jam duration reduction skills from -15% to -20% would have the side effect of slightly improving things for the UAC2/s and 5/s along with RACs. (Directly helping out the UAC/10 by buffing the skills is intentional and therefore not a side effect) I believe the jam durations on the 2's and 5's are a little too long and the skills are not good enough to be worth getting for RAC's. JGx D A T A made a video about the jam duration reduction skills not being that good: https://youtu.be/1RmgcV2jf0U?t=661. I disagree with him for UAC's but agree with him for RAC's. Going from a 10s jam down to 8.5s is still too long to matter much. I don't have them skilled on my SHD-2D which is armed with a RAC5. This thread isn't a discussion about RACs so I don't want to get into that.
Verilligo, on 03 September 2022 - 07:48 PM, said:
That indicates to me that there may be conditions that are not being accounted for in your list of variables.
Or maybe it indicates that the question of UAC/20s usage as a weapon is a much broader topic with many more variables such as min/maxxing, preference for OP weapons, the meta, etc etc and just broadly proclaiming "everything's fine, nothing to see here, no changes necessary" is very stupid and actually gets in the way of fixing obvious issues?
Verilligo, on 03 September 2022 - 07:48 PM, said:
Also, please don't get pissy with me for pointing out the tone I'm hearing from your posts. Like I said, that may not be your intention at all. Sometimes it can be useful to have someone else say that maybe a person is getting a little too hot and passionate about a thing. Also I'd recommend making a new post if you're going to propose new conditions, rather than editing your original post. Most people these days will jump into the conversation at the last page, rather than starting from the very first. Edit the first post and everyone will be lost about changes you made and still work off whatever the original first post was.
I don't tolerate being talking down to and lectured by forum veterans. I stopped putting up with that a long time ago.
I'll consider whether or not to create a new post. I generally don't want to clutter up forums with redundant posts but I understand what you're saying about most people only jumping to the last page.
Edited by MechMaster059, 03 September 2022 - 09:49 PM.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
10 caliber weapons don't reliably run out of ammo. I repeatedly see 2 caliber builds run out of ammo as a spectator. I experience it in my RFL-3C with LBX2's. If the game goes well the mech runs out of ammo 90% through the game and I'm not willing to strip off 1 ton of armor from each leg and 1/2 ton from each arm like D A T A does to keep it going because that would weaken the mech for the other 90% of the time.
You're wrong.
Yep 10 calibers are taking more return fire because of shorter range and velocity so life runs out before ammo.
Just your opinion. Maybe you don't understand all aspects of game balance.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
If something is overpowered, you nerf it and leave it at that. There's no need to possibly create a new imbalance that causes problems by buffing some other aspect.
It's getting very boring going around in circles with you over basic reading comprehension and my patience for it is running out.
By nerfing already bad weapon you are creating new imbalance by nerfing one aspect of it without giving anything in return.
Poor things patience is running out...
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
The title of his video I linked to is: "MWO: Overbuffed Sun Spider drops 1500 damage"
The Sun Spider is a heavy mech, not a medium or light. Overbuffed means: made too powerful.
What does 90% mean?
Also kinda weird that caliber 2 ACs are "ammo taxed" and two cases you give both do over 1500 and then sunspider doing 1500 is OP?
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
Your reply #3 was a simplistic one-liner that showed no recognition or understanding of the problem, just a vague request not to even touch the UAC/20's because you assume they're "bad weapons".
Well that is where experience comes, I don't think (almost EVERYONE who has replied to you this read has said AC20 doesn't need any kind of nerfs because it is already mediocre/bad weapon. But You with your very limited gaming experience and excel says it's op and so your crusade continues.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
No, we're not giving UAC/20's "something in return" to distort and over-buff them along some different aspect. That's not how balance tuning works. We're nerfing an aspect of them that is OP and leaving it at that.
Luckily "we're" not nerfing it. Because you are not spokeperson of anything else than yourself here either.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
I find it hard to believe these forums have zero influence on the devs.
Believe what you want.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
Oh we got another one here folks...
"we're"... who the hell are you? Are you the spokesperson for the entire MWO community now?
If you haven't noticed this thread is mostly going you against rest. So "we're" isn't that far fetched.
MechMaster059, on 03 September 2022 - 04:45 PM, said:
Rather than making broad simplistic statements like "the weapon isn't used much, let's do nothing" which only stifle's analysis and get's in the way of progress, a better course of action is to ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS AND FIX THEM.
You can ask proper numbers from PGI or maybe Cauldron how much UAC20 is used.
Yep but you are doing it wrong, you are nerfing already weak weapon and buff one that is way better...
Yep 10 calibers are taking more return fire because of shorter range and velocity so life runs out before ammo.
Just your opinion. Maybe you don't understand all aspects of game balance.
I have an LBX10 configuration for my RFL-3C. It NEVER runs out of ammo whether or not I make it to the end of the match.
More simplistic and broad assertions from you that you pull out of thin air for the sake of argument.
Curccu, on 04 September 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:
By nerfing already bad weapon you are creating new imbalance by nerfing one aspect of it without giving anything in return.
Well that is where experience comes, I don't think (almost EVERYONE who has replied to you this read has said AC20 doesn't need any kind of nerfs because it is already mediocre/bad weapon. But You with your very limited gaming experience and excel says it's op and so your crusade continues.
You can ask proper numbers from PGI or maybe Cauldron how much UAC20 is used.
Yep but you are doing it wrong, you are nerfing already weak weapon and buff one that is way better...
I put all these together because ultimately this is all you're capable of saying over and over, that the UAC/20 is a "bad weapon" with no real analysis behind that assertion.
[redacted]
Curccu, on 04 September 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:
What does 90% mean?
Also kinda weird that caliber 2 ACs are "ammo taxed" and two cases you give both do over 1500 and then sunspider doing 1500 is OP?
July Patch Notes: https://mwomercs.com...atch-notes/2648
SUN SPIDER
SNS-D:
Added 25% Ballistic velocity in SO8
Added -25% UAC Jam chance in SO8
Added -20% Ballistic cooldown in SO8
These buffs affect it's DPS and ability to land hits on targets. They're not +ammo quirks. [redacted] the DPS of a mech can be made OP and yet that mech can still run out of ammo due to an excessive ammo tax. If you actually take the time to watch the video you'll notice D A T A misses few shots and does a good job of conserving his ammo yet it still runs out with an enemy mech standing right in front of him and he loses the kill because of it.
I think I'm starting to see what I'm dealing with here Curccu. It's not really worth going around in circles with you anymore since your thinking is so simplistic.
Curccu, on 04 September 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:
If you haven't noticed this thread is mostly going you against rest. So "we're" isn't that far fetched.
This is standard on game forums for any suggested changes to a game and doesn't mean much. The fact that you're so easily swayed by how things appear says a lot about how you think, or should I say, don't think.
Edited by Ekson Valdez, 05 September 2022 - 09:59 PM.
I'm just going to jump in and say this. I REALLY like my Direwolf UV with 3x uac 20's. If one jams I got 2 more, if two jam well I still have one and 4 erml's.
Leave my Uac 20's alone!
I love watching mechs pop when I can get in brawling range of them.
not using the UV but same build here ... i call the build Bananaganga ....or Pseudo RAC20
2
MechMaster059, on 02 September 2022 - 10:40 PM, said:
