63 replies to this topic

[Brizna]

They are very different.
IS Orion is a tank
Clan Orion is a mediocre glasscannon

The former is the best in MWO.

[pbiggz]

Brizna, on 05 October 2022 - 05:23 AM, said:

They are very different.
IS Orion is a tank
Clan Orion is a mediocre glasscannon

The former is the best in MWO.

oh i definitely disagree with that.

[Brizna]

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 05:40 AM, said:

oh i definitely disagree with that.

Maybe average is more accurate than mediocre, but I definitely stand by this.

[pbiggz]

Brizna, on 05 October 2022 - 05:43 AM, said:

Maybe average is more accurate than mediocre, but I definitely stand by this.

I'd love to know what your builds are then, because the IS orion was a pet mech of mine and I haven't been able to make it perform as of late. The clan orion has offered far more options to me.

[martian]

Brizna, on 05 October 2022 - 05:23 AM, said:

They are very different.
IS Orion is a tank
Clan Orion is a mediocre glasscannon

The former is the best in MWO.

I can not say that I meet too many IS Orions in the Quick Play. Of course, this month it is different.

[caravann]

martian, on 04 October 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

Orion in the tabletop BattleTech is about as fast as the majority of other similar IS heavies

• ON1-K Orion - moves 4/6
  
• MAD-3R Marauder - moves 4/6
  
• BL-7-KNT-L Black Knight - moves 4/6
  
• CRD-3R Crusader - moves 4/6
  
• TDR-5S Thunderbolt - moves 4/6
  
• WHM-6R Warhammer - moves 4/6
  
• RFL-3N Rifleman - moves 4/6
  
• etc.

Orion in MechWarrior Online is as fast - or as slow - as you build it. It shares its maximal engine rating with Black Knight, Thanatos (yes, I know that one BLK and oneor two TNS have higher max engine rating) or Marauder. Within this engine limit, you are free to use any desired engine size and make your Orion go as fast as you wish.

In the Quick Play queue you are not limited by PGI to stock 'Mechs.



In MWO? Only if you build it this way. Other players can devise different loadouts.



One unnamed in-universe source compared Orion with Atlas, but that does not necessarily mean that Atlas is based on Orion.



Mackie was the first BattleMech ever and with its 100 tons it was sitting on the top end of the assault class in 2439. Orion came in 2453, i.e. after Mackie.



Thanks for the description of your Orion builds.

The 100tons are balloons compared to the compact Orion. and if you can't put a higher amount of firepower on an orion compared to a 60ton while driving slower the mech is slower.

Mackie was already decommissioned to the heaviest assault of the star league era, archer, orion, rifleman, Thunderbolt and etc.

[martian]

caravann, on 06 October 2022 - 07:35 AM, said:

The 100tons are balloons compared to the compact Orion. and if you can't put a higher amount of firepower on an orion compared to a 60ton while driving slower the mech is slower.

It is your choice of engine that dictates the speed of your Orion in MWO. If you go with a low power engine, then your Orion is going to be slow.

caravann, on 06 October 2022 - 07:35 AM, said:

Mackie was already decommissioned to the heaviest assault of the star league era, archer, orion, rifleman, Thunderbolt and etc.

No, the Mackie was continuously upgraded and refitted with the more advanced technology to stay relevant on the battlefield.

The Mackie was produced from the mid-25^th century to the mid-28^th century, i.e. for some 300 years.

Edited by martian, 06 October 2022 - 08:25 AM.

[foamyesque]

I've actually been enjoying September's VA freebie as a brawl machine -- UAC/20, SRM24. You can be handcuffed, like any other brawl mech, but within its engagement envelope it seems pretty deadly. The low mounts don't matter as much if you're already fighting at 200m.

[martian]

foamyesque, on 06 October 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

I've actually been enjoying September's VA freebie as a brawl machine -- UAC/20, SRM24. You can be handcuffed, like any other brawl mech, but within its engagement envelope it seems pretty deadly. The low mounts don't matter as much if you're already fighting at 200m.

Yeah, you are right.

But getting there to start brawling, that could be a problem in the current gameplay sometimes.

[Void Angel]

To be fair, a 'mech is effectively slower for its firepower if the amount of tonnage you have to spend on its engine to maintain speed is greater than the tonnage difference between whatever 'mech you're comparing. But this is effectively a meaningless measurement of "how fast is a 'mech," because there are variations in engine size available. In practical terms, though, 'mechs can be generally compared in speed based on viable builds. I've seen Spiders that only go 64kph; you can also put a STD 400 in an Atlas, but should you? (No. The answer is, "no, you should not.") But the most that can be said with perfect accuracy is that given chassis of similar weight tend to be faster or slower.

That being said, the Orion does have nearly identical design characteristics to the Atlas: it has low mounts which make it objectively inferior in most long-range engagements - if you want a long-range sniper, don't pick a 'mech that's shooting from the hip, or you're going to lose a lot of trades. LRM boat builds are an obvious exception, but while these builds are not a priori bad (like the Atlas,) there are other 'mechs that can do that with better quirks, mobility, etc. based on the available space for missile hardpoints. (the Atlas has to cram all of its missiles into its ECM side torso; this is not conducive to an effective weight of fire.)

All in all, the Atlas and Orion tend toward similar builds.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i like the IS Orion better. (i am running my free Orion from the Spt event with LPLs and SRMs, the quirks got me to actually put SRM on a mech something i rarely do as i prefer medium range builds)

most of it is i am an IS loyalist (FRR forever) but i also like the look of it better than the IIC. hell this goes for 90% of the IIC mechs. since i don't care about meta i just pick mechs i like and go with it.

i like having that extra bit of armor that the IS Orion has over the more fragile IIC.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Void Angel, on 06 October 2022 - 09:05 PM, said:

To be fair, a 'mech is effectively slower for its firepower if the amount of tonnage you have to spend on its engine to maintain speed is greater than the tonnage difference between whatever 'mech you're comparing. But this is effectively a meaningless measurement of "how fast is a 'mech," because there are variations in engine size available. In practical terms, though, 'mechs can be generally compared in speed based on viable builds. I've seen Spiders that only go 64kph; you can also put a STD 400 in an Atlas, but should you? (No. The answer is, "no, you should not.") But the most that can be said with perfect accuracy is that given chassis of similar weight tend to be faster or slower. That being said, the Orion does have nearly identical design characteristics to the Atlas: it has low mounts which make it objectively inferior in most long-range engagements - if you want a long-range sniper, don't pick a 'mech that's shooting from the hip, or you're going to lose a lot of trades. LRM boat builds are an obvious exception, but while these builds are not a priori bad (like the Atlas,) there are other 'mechs that can do that with better quirks, mobility, etc. based on the available space for missile hardpoints. (the Atlas has to cram all of its missiles into its ECM side torso; this is not conducive to an effective weight of fire.) All in all, the Atlas and Orion tend toward similar builds.

you seem to assume that the ECM Orion is the only Orion. each variant has its own advantages and disadvantages (this goes for every mech in the game). also you don't have to bring ECM on the ECM equipped mech (unless we are talking clan since many clan mechs have set equipment that you can't remove). though honestly if you don't want the ECM then perhaps another variant is better for the build you want. (there seems to be a massive bloat of ECM mechs among the new Variants add in the last few years, i don't say new mechs since the crusader is the first new mech we have gotten in years.))

[martian]

Void Angel, on 06 October 2022 - 09:05 PM, said:

That being said, the Orion does have nearly identical design characteristics to the Atlas: it has low mounts which make it objectively inferior in most long-range engagements - if you want a long-range sniper, don't pick a 'mech that's shooting from the hip, or you're going to lose a lot of trades.

"Protector" offers one relatively high-placed side torso energy hardpoint that can be used for example for ER PPC or Heavy PPC to give it some degree of sniping ability.

Actually, this feature was one important selling point when the number of available 'Mechs was much lower than it is today. No other Orion variant has it.

[Void Angel]

VeeOt Dragon, on 06 October 2022 - 09:42 PM, said:

you seem to assume that the ECM Orion is the only Orion. each variant has its own advantages and disadvantages (this goes for every mech in the game). also you don't have to bring ECM on the ECM equipped mech (unless we are talking clan since many clan mechs have set equipment that you can't remove). though honestly if you don't want the ECM then perhaps another variant is better for the build you want. (there seems to be a massive bloat of ECM mechs among the new Variants add in the last few years, i don't say new mechs since the crusader is the first new mech we have gotten in years.))

...

What the frack are you talking about? There are no ECM Orions.

Now, go into the store, and look at the models; if you use your eye-holes to see things, you may notice that most of the Orion's weapon hardpoints are low-mounted, with only the torso missile points being above waist-level. In one variant, they're also crammed into the left side torso, though most have them spread around, which allows much more flexibility than the Atlas' single side torso option. The Protector is not really even an exception here; that mount comes filled stock with a PPC - which sits at armpit level. It is higher than the autocannon, but if you try to trade with that mount, every Stalker and Cauldron-born on the field will slap you in the face and back down behind their hillside giggling.

So the Orion's standard description in MWO as a mini-Atlas is pretty spot on. It has very similar weapon mounts, which in turn support very similar loadouts. They even have nearly identical survivability quirks. The Orion has missile hardpoints in the arms (particularly the VA, or, as I like to call him, "Edward Missilehands,") which lends to a bit more freedom - but these are variations on a theme, not major differences between the chassis. The biggest two differences between the Atlas and the Orion are hit box architecture, and tonnage.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 October 2022 - 01:21 PM.

[Void Angel]

PS: If you are fielding a chassis with ECM and do not mount ECM on it, you are fielding a bad build for that chassis variant. ECM is the most powerful piece of equipment in the game for its tonnage and space - there is literally never an alternative option that is more worthwhile than ECM.

[Brizna]

Void Angel, on 07 October 2022 - 11:57 AM, said:

PS: If you are fielding a chassis with ECM and do not mount ECM on it, you are fielding a bad build for that chassis variant. ECM is the most powerful piece of equipment in the game for its tonnage and space - there is literally never an alternative option that is more worthwhile than ECM.

That's mostly true, but in the case of light mechs sometimes ECM is too "heavy" for certain builds. One example is CMD-2D, that 1.5 tons can be put to great use in extra SRM tubes and ammo. My point is ECM is good, specially in quick play but it's not infinitely good, the 1.5 tons and 2 slots are still a price you have to pay and in some fringe cases ECM is not good enough to be worth it.

[Void Angel]

I dunno. Even for a Commando - or a Flea/Locust for that matter - ECM's survivability and team utility seems always worth the 2 slots and 1.5 tons. You're literally better off shaving engine weight than going without it.

I really can't see any Light build that would benefit more from extra guns and ammo than from ECM - and generally ECM is part of the intended balance of a chassis, which tends to make ECM variants less powerful than non-ECM variants. So we have another missile hardpoint on a COM-2D, but if you're rocking SRM4s, you're buying an extra 45 seconds of missile combat for that 1.5 tons - plus 60 from the rest of your ammo. Ammo Rack will extend both numbers proportionally. That seems like it might be a good deal on paper, but that ammo buys 774 damage (before skills.) And as we used to tell the Rogues over and over in WoW, 0 HP returns 0 DPS. In terms of survivability, not having a bright red square over your head whenever someone looks at you is important, even with the Commando's armor quirks. You'd almost certainly gain more by going down to an XL180 (Single Heat Sinks) with ECM and bringing 3 tons of ammo. You're still bringing 1161 damage to the fight (plus the benefit from Ammo Rack,) which is a lot more than you're normally going to see out of any Light chassis.

So, it's logically possible that some strange combination might make ECM an inferior choice for some build or other - but it's hard to imagine how a build like that which was also a better option would work out in the real world.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 October 2022 - 11:44 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Void Angel, on 07 October 2022 - 11:52 AM, said:

...

What the frack are you talking about? There are no ECM Orions.

Now, go into the store, and look at the models; if you use your eye-holes to see things, you may notice that most of the Orion's weapon hardpoints are low-mounted, with only the torso missile points being above waist-level. In one variant, they're also crammed into the left side torso, though most have them spread around, which allows much more flexibility than the Atlas' single side torso option. The Protector is not really even an exception here; that mount comes filled stock with a PPC - which sits at armpit level. It is higher than the autocannon, but if you try to trade with that mount, every Stalker and Cauldron-born on the field will slap you in the face and back down behind their hillside giggling.

So the Orion's standard description in MWO as a mini-Atlas is pretty spot on. It has very similar weapon mounts, which in turn support very similar loadouts. They even have nearly identical survivability quirks. The Orion has missile hardpoints in the arms (particularly the VA, or, as I like to call him, "Edward Missilehands,") which lends to a bit more freedom - but these are variations on a theme, not major differences between the chassis. The biggest two differences between the Atlas and the Orion are hit box architecture, and tonnage.

apologies my sleep deprived mind misread your post (i have insomnia and often go days without real sleep). rereading i see you were talking about the ECM Atlas (though my point still stands) not some new Orion. so many of the new variants they have been adding have ECM you can understand my confusion. for some reason i was thinking that they added a full new Orion Variant for both IS and Clan (like one of the cash grab chrome mechs or something, i haven't paid any attention to those and don't even know what ones they added, only full new chassis will get much attention from me and then i will wait for C-bills or maybe MC before getting them).

the rest of your point are completely valid to one degree or another.

as for the IS Orion (i don't use clan mechs so have no real opinion there). i find the Orion does really well at mid range. it has enough tonnage and hardpionts to carry a nasty loadout of MRMs and other toys. at mid range the lower placement of most of the weapons isn't as big a deal, that shoulder is still a glaring target but the same goes for other lopsided mechs like say the Hunchies, the T-Bolt, and even the Thor if you are using that shoulder missile slot. though a LOT of mechs have big "Shoot Here" spots to be honest. when it comes to Heavy mechs speed is lower on my priority list than armor or firepower. i mean i won't go bellow say mid to high 60s (preferably closer to 70 if i can manage) but if i can cram a bigger engine in without sacrificing much in Firepower or Armor (while still keeping a manageable for me heat management of 1.40 (before things like JJ or L-AMS) i will.

when it come to mechs with sub optimal geometry and hardpiont placement you have to play to their strengths. take the Orion, with its sub optimal geometry i treat it as sort of a second line mech right behind the main line in support of the assaults. saddle up with that Atlas or other big boy moving around to add fire where you can and maybe take some of the heat off them from time to time so they can pull back and cool if they have to, or giving that light trying to backshot him a nice big spat to the legs. you have the armor to stand up with the big boys for a bit but have a bit more speed and maneuverability to reposision were you are needed most (not as well as say a medium but you tend to have more firepower and armor than they do) so many people forget about the role of front line support. people often talk either sniper or a brawler forggetting that there are many other roles a mech can fill depending on build. (take a mid range build Orion giving support to a brawler Atlas. the Atlas needs to move across some open terrain to get into a fire position. well he might not be able to hit the sniper plinking him from out of his range but you can perhaps tickle that same sniper a bit. most people don't look at how much damage they just took just that something hit them so they back off even you are doing minimum damage).

[Void Angel]

The Atlas does the same kinds of mid-range builds you're talking about here - again, driven by low-slung weapon mounts. But the Orion also does very well as a Heavy brawler, shoulder or no shoulder - I had a match for 1,134 damage in a drawn-out fight with Edward Missilehands over the weekend. Plinking people at long range is something I do all my time with my dual-LB-X Atlas D-DC as well, and I do the same with my Orion brawler's AC/10.

On that note, do you know how to engage the reverse gear on an Atlas?

... shoot it with a Medium Laser. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 10 October 2022 - 08:43 AM.

[Void Angel]

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 05:54 AM, said:

I'd love to know what your builds are then, because the IS orion was a pet mech of mine and I haven't been able to make it perform as of late. The clan orion has offered far more options to me.

BEHOLD --

Edward Missilehands!

I haven't played a lot with him yet, but initial results have been favorable.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 October 2022 - 10:38 AM.