35 replies to this topic

[Akamia Terizen]

I had a bit of a shower thought about some of the Hero ’Mechs we have in the game, and I can't help but wonder why some of them exist in the way that they do. In particular, I'm thinking about Dao Breaker and Street Cleaner, as those are the ones I actually am aware of that have this issue I'm about to elaborate on, but there might be other heroes I'm overlooking that are doing this too.

See, in stock configuration, Dao Breaker is just a differently-quirked RFL-3N. Street Cleaner is a glorified UM-R60.

I know the quirks and hardpoints differ, and I know they have those unique camo patterns that each Hero (and to a lesser extent, Special) gets, and all that other junk that comes with being a Hero. What I'm confused about is what justified these particular Heroes's creation. Just about every other Hero is either some apocryphal design inspired by a specific BattleTech canon character, or a canon custom refit used by such a character. Some of them even started as apocrypha before being imported to said canon, such as Roc and Kuroi Kiri as of the BattleTech: Legends artbook.

So why are Dao Breaker and Street Cleaner looking like stock standard variants in fancy paint?

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 20 October 2022 - 05:08 PM.

[Akamia Terizen]

Ding Toast is Ready, on 20 October 2022 - 05:16 PM, said:

I read somewhere that they (and others from the S7 pack) are from an S7 stable called Capellan Mafia.

As for the differences? Dao Breaker has a different hardpoint layout from every other RFL (3B 5E I think). Street Cleaner has a 210 engine cap and one less E hardpoint. Quirk differences as well, from cursory examination - Dao Breaker has a Large Laser HSL I don't see anywhere else in the RFL chassis, Street Cleaner has a generic Velocity quirk that allows it to use either ACs or PPCs and get velocity boosts.

Right, but I don't care about the metadata like quirks and hardpoint counts with regard to my question. I want to know why, in a game full of diverse Hero ’Mechs that depart from standard configurations in some form or another in terms of stock loadout, the Dao Breaker and Street Cleaner are constructed exactly the same as the stock "prime" variants, or even any other extant C-Bill variant in the game, of their chassis. To my knowledge, no other Hero ’Mech does this. Kraken from the same pack is built different from any other stock Atlas. Ditto Siren and any other stock Banshee, Revenant and other Mad Dogs, etc.

Dao Breaker and Street Cleaner are the odd ones out.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 20 October 2022 - 05:30 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

some of them aren't even quirked that great. I think the only thing mind blowing about my protector is the -50% critical hit chance you get from it. -10% balistic and -10% gauss cooldown is nice but not like gridiron nice

[Akamia Terizen]

I mean, sure, but this is still unusual. For example, Natasha Kerensky, as far as anyone can tell, used a stock WHM-6R I believe she'd named Black Lady during her career with the Black Widow Company, but the Hero Black Widow is substantially different from a WHM-6R. The two Gray Death Legion Hero ’Mechs, Pirate's Bane and Gray Death, did not exist either; the characters associated with those ’Mechs canonically piloted a stock LCT-1V and SHD-2H, respectively. Katana Kat is a stock PNT-9R in canon even deep in the Dark Age era, and Grinner is the one-of-a-kind Wolfhound IIC that may or may not have once been a standardized Wolfhound model at one point prior. There do exist several canon customs, like the aforementioned Roc and the Bounty Hunter's second Marauder, including some that had to be fudged somewhat because MWO's game mechanics wouldn't allow them ported in otherwise, like the Yen-Lo-Wang and Crael. Actually, some canon standard variants got fudged too, either because certain weapons just straight up don't exist in MWO or because you can't have rear-facing weapons, like the Dire Wolf Alt. Config. C and the AS7-D itself, respectively.

Several MechWarriors who are known to have piloted stock BattleMechs got Hero ’Mechs that are straight up built differently than the variants they actually used. That makes Dao Breaker and Street Cleaner anomalies among the bunch. Hardpoint counts and quirks aside, under the hood, they're just a RFL-3N and UM-R60...

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 20 October 2022 - 06:21 PM.

[Gagis]

There was a period in which PGI was seemingly VERY concerned about power creep, so several heroes released around that time have absolutely horrible hardpoints. The S7 hero pack is particularly bad about this.

Bad stock loadouts are a given in battletech anyways.

[Heavy Money]

You'd probably have to ask PGI themselves to really know why. But its not a big deal really. Stock loadouts are pretty much irrelevant.

Ding Toast is Ready, on 20 October 2022 - 05:16 PM, said:

Quirk differences as well, from cursory examination - Dao Breaker has a Large Laser HSL I don't see anywhere else in the RFL chassis, Street Cleaner has a generic Velocity quirk that allows it to use either ACs or PPCs and get velocity boosts.

Keep in mind that the current quirks for both are quite new. Almost all quirks have been redone in the last ~1.5 years since the Cauldron passes began. I was one of the people who requested LL HSL on a Rifleman, although iirc I had the 5D in mind. But the Dao Breaker was a better choice. Its a really nice mech now and has many viable loadouts (but 2AC5+2LL is not one of them because the weapons sync badly. Either do AC5s+LPPCs or go all lasers.)

Pixel Hunter, on 20 October 2022 - 05:52 PM, said:

some of them aren't even quirked that great. I think the only thing mind blowing about my protector is the -50% critical hit chance you get from it. -10% balistic and -10% gauss cooldown is nice but not like gridiron nice

The Protector has extremely good quirks. The -15% heat is tremendous. Also, its only -25% crit chance. It is held back a bit by mixed hardpoints and mounts, but it can run some extremely efficient loadouts thanks to the heat and cooldown and is as tough as many assault mechs.

Edited by Heavy Money, 20 October 2022 - 11:30 PM.

[w0qj]

Rifleman Dao Breaker: fire 5x Large Laser with no ghost heat, and nice energy quirks too
+1 HSL Laser Family
-5% Heat
+5% Heat Dissipation
+10% Range
-10% Cooldown

Edited by w0qj, 21 October 2022 - 05:59 AM.

[martian]

Gagis, on 20 October 2022 - 09:18 PM, said:

There was a period in which PGI was seemingly VERY concerned about power creep, so several heroes released around that time have absolutely horrible hardpoints.

Do not even talk about it.

There was a time when the Crab was my "go to" 'Mech. I really loved that 'Mech. But I was not stupid enough to buy the Crab Hero "Florentine".

Gagis, on 20 October 2022 - 09:18 PM, said:

The S7 hero pack is particularly bad about this.

It was not (only) a matter of hardpoints: For example, the Firestarter Hero "Ember" was a pretty solid 'Mech, while the other Firestarter Hero "Firestorm" sucked. Actually, it was the worst Firestarter variant in the game. The problem was not in their hardpoints - both 'Mechs have the same set of hardpoints - but in the fact that "Ember" had good offensive quirks, while "Firestorm" had no such quirks.

Gagis, on 20 October 2022 - 09:18 PM, said:

Bad stock loadouts are a given in battletech anyways.

If your faction counts as the writer's pet, you will get BattleMechs with great stock loadouts. See Davion 'Mechs.

[D V Devnull]

Akamia Terizen, on 20 October 2022 - 06:02 PM, said:

Actually, some canon standard variants got fudged too, either because certain weapons just straight up don't exist in MWO or because you can't have rear-facing weapons, like the Dire Wolf Alt. Config. C and the AS7-D itself, respectively.

Don't forget the modeling as well, since PGI landed up not placing some of those HardPoints in the right places due to inability at the time regarding making it work. Take for example the AS7-K3 which last I heard was supposed to have LT Ballistic placement and not RT like other Variants in the Atlas's options array. There are probably others which I am unaware of too, and we don't even have the AS7-A in MWO yet (check out 'Baradul's "YAML MW5 Campaign @ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtkq0_PTmCCSG2Ua48chq9Lh4d2NHFlC3" to see what I'm talking about) which would have both LT & RT Missile HardPoints to play with. It's a real downer for a Support-type freak like me.

~D. V. "wondering what other Mech Variants have misplaced HardPoints that people live with" Devnull

[Akamia Terizen]

D V Devnull, on 21 October 2022 - 10:49 AM, said:

Don't forget the modeling as well, since PGI landed up not placing some of those HardPoints in the right places due to inability at the time regarding making it work. Take for example the AS7-K3 which last I heard was supposed to have LT Ballistic placement and not RT like other Variants in the Atlas's options array. There are probably others which I am unaware of too, and we don't even have the AS7-A in MWO yet (check out 'Baradul's "YAML MW5 Campaign @ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtkq0_PTmCCSG2Ua48chq9Lh4d2NHFlC3" to see what I'm talking about) which would have both LT & RT Missile HardPoints to play with. It's a real downer for a Support-type freak like me.

~D. V. "wondering what other Mech Variants have misplaced HardPoints that people live with" Devnull

Well, for what it's worth, it appears the AS7-K3 is rendered accurately; I just checked MegaMekLab, and the AS7-K3 does indeed have a Gauss Rifle in the RT.

[D V Devnull]

Akamia Terizen, on 22 October 2022 - 03:20 AM, said:

Well, for what it's worth, it appears the AS7-K3 is rendered accurately; I just checked MegaMekLab, and the AS7-K3 does indeed have a Gauss Rifle in the RT.

Roger that. I just found the Record Sheet Image for the AS7-K3 posted elsewhere in these Forums just a few minutes ago. Seems my head got unexpectedly fuzzy, and it's the MIssile HardPoint that's not on the correct side.

~D. V. "accidentally confused over AS7-K3's layout" Devnull

[Akamia Terizen]

Ah, you are correct there. You had me so focused on the Gauss Rifle, I forgot to look at the Streak SRM 4.

Well, there you have it folks. Another case of fudging canon variants, for better or for worse.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 22 October 2022 - 05:15 AM.

[martian]

Akamia Terizen, on 22 October 2022 - 03:42 AM, said:

Well, there you have it folks. Another case of fudging canon variants, for better or for worse.

The brand new MWO Crusader "Crael" also differs from the BattleTech Crusader "Crael". So that Atlas is still quite okay.

[Akamia Terizen]

martian, on 22 October 2022 - 05:27 AM, said:

The brand new MWO Crusader "Crael" also differs from the BattleTech Crusader "Crael". So that Atlas is still quite okay.

Akamia Terizen, on 20 October 2022 - 06:02 PM, said:

There do exist several canon customs, like the aforementioned Roc and the Bounty Hunter's second Marauder, including some that had to be fudged somewhat because MWO's game mechanics wouldn't allow them ported in otherwise, like the Yen-Lo-Wang and Crael.

Way ahead of ya. Although in this particular case, the reasoning for the AS7-K3's inaccuracy is slightly different, considering while leg mounted weapons (which affects most Crusaders, including Crael) and melee weapons (Crael's claws can't happen in MWO; this isn't post-Call to Arms MW5Mercs, after all) are unsound concepts in MWO, the torso mount being TT-accurate would have been perfectly fine. I just think adding a variable missile hardpoint to the RT of the Atlas model just for one new variant might've been considered not worth the time and effort.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 22 October 2022 - 07:38 AM.

[martian]

Akamia Terizen, on 22 October 2022 - 06:24 AM, said:

Way ahead of ya. Although in this particular case, the reasoning for the AS7-K3's inaccuracy is slightly different, considering while leg mounted weapons (which affects most Crusaders, including Crael) and melee weapons (Crael's claws can't happen in MWO; this isn't post-Call to Arms MW5Mercs, after all) are unsound concepts in MWO, the torso mount being TT-accurate would have been perfectly fine. I just think adding a variable missile hardpoint to the RT of the Atlas model just for one new variant might've been considered not worth the time and effort.

You are right.

[D V Devnull]

Akamia Terizen, on 22 October 2022 - 06:24 AM, said:

Way ahead of ya. Although in this particular case, the reasoning for the AS7-K3's inaccuracy is slightly different, considering while leg mounted weapons (which affects most Crusaders, including Crael) and melee weapons (Crael's claws can't happen in MWO; this isn't post-Call to Arms MW5Mercs, after all) are unsound concepts in MWO, the torso mount being TT-accurate would have been perfectly fine. I just think adding a variable missile hardpoint to the RT of the Atlas model just for one new variant might've been considered not worth the time and effort.

martian, on 22 October 2022 - 07:29 AM, said:

You are right.

I wonder what PGI will do when people call for the Atlas's "AS7-A" Variant to become a thing???

~D. V. "Could a new Atlas Variant upset the shirking on modeling?" Devnull

[martian]

D V Devnull, on 23 October 2022 - 02:50 AM, said:

I wonder what PGI will do when people call for the Atlas's "AS7-A" Variant to become a thing???

~D. V. "Could a new Atlas Variant upset the shirking on modeling?" Devnull

I do not think that the PGI's current MWO staff -- i.e. those three people - has adding a new 'Mechs as their priority.

[D V Devnull]

martian, on 23 October 2022 - 03:23 AM, said:

I do not think that the PGI's current MWO staff -- i.e. those three people - has adding a new 'Mechs as their priority.

True that... I was merely asking a theoretical question regarding New Mech Variants from random curiosity, and then trying to listen for thoughts from other people.

~D. V. "merely posing a speculative question about New Mech Variants to everyone" Devnull

[mytilus edulis]

martian, on 23 October 2022 - 03:23 AM, said:

I do not think that the PGI's current MWO staff -- i.e. those three people - has adding a new 'Mechs as their priority.

they just hired someone.

[martian]

D V Devnull, on 23 October 2022 - 07:20 AM, said:

True that... I was merely asking a theoretical question regarding New Mech Variants from random curiosity, and then trying to listen for thoughts from other people.

~D. V. "merely posing a speculative question about New Mech Variants to everyone" Devnull

I am not saying that it can not happen, but probably not now.