178 replies to this topic

[Silverlance]

Clan Elementals baby. A major resource that has yet to be addressed at least once since Clans have finally arrived. They are a major part in a lot of the Clans and I for one would definitely like to see them implemented.

What are your thoughts?

Please provide feedback and answer for your vote and any suggestions that PGI can make use of.

[John Archer]

I think it would completely rock to be able to drop with 4 other friends in Clan Elementals!

Unfortunately they would have to add some major code to the MM system.

Here is my reasoning/thoughts:

Elementals are typically grouped in a Star. This means 5 Elementals. They cannot be inserted into the MM system in lieu of 5 Battlemechs. They can, however, take the slot/place of one single Battlemech in MM.

This is where the crazy MM recoding would occur. Somehow the Dev's would have to add to the Match Maker system the ability for a Star of Elementals to take the place of one Battlemech in the queue. They would also have to put in place that a group of Elementals CANNOT drop unless the group has 5 players playing Elementals present.

If they could do the above, then Elementals would be a great and viable option/addition to the game.

My .02 cents.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Russ had mentioned that he would like to see some form of 'deployable and directed' version of Battle Armour.

- these would be called in to a specific location or target.
- If the target is an Enemy Mech they swarm that mech.
- Russ had stated that he would like these elements to be something that is available as a one time use during a Battle.
- Probably a consumable or pre equipped item before a drop.

Yes, the Lore does state that the Clans regularly operated with mixed groups/Stars of Mech's and Elementals.
- The Clans operated in the following formations:
~ 'Squad' = 5 warriors
~ 'Point' = 1 Mech/ or 2 Aerospace/ or 5 Elementals/ or 5 Squads
~ 'Star' = 5 Points
~ 'Nova' = 1 Mech Star and 1 Elemental Star (10points)
~ 'Binary = 2 Stars (10 Points)
~ 'Trinary' = 3 Stars (15 Points)

This game is centered around the Battle Mech, so creation of a complete new design for everything as will as weapons and quirks for Battle Armour could be a completely new game from PGI's standpoint. The only plus going for it is that CryEngine is designed for that size of element, and had to be fudged a bit for the much taller Mech's.
- MW:LL does have playable BattleArmour but there are quite a few liberties given for that type of unit.
- It would, as I stated, require nearly a complete new set of game assets to be designed, built, tested, an given all the items that these units could field, an effect within the gameplay.
- Probably will not see this unit as 'Playable' but not as difficult to be designed as a specialized Ai directed element.

These could be brought in with the addition or Arrow IV, specialized Command Console items, and for the Clan these units.

Reference:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Point
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova_(unit)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Binary
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trinary

We shall see just how far PGI wants to push the 'True to Lore' unit structure that all the Clans fielded during the Invasion waves.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 23 June 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[Koniving]

On an equal note: Battlemechs of the Inner Sphere were known to be deployed with Infantry and Vehicle support.

The Blackjack specifically is an infantry support mech.
The Firestarter is purely an anti-infantry mech, if those two give you some idea of the devotion given to fighting infantry.

The presence of 'consumable module' infantry and battle armor would give a whole new reason for flamers and MGs, as lasers and ACs wouldn't be terribly efficient when dealing with infantry. SRMs would still have great use of course, but you can't really 'aim' SRMs for something quite so small.

[S3dition]

I don't think players should be involved directly with combined arms. They should either be

1) Integrated in the level/mission (similar to war thunder)
2) A global ability paid for at the campaign level in community warfare (pay 5,000,000 cbills and you get infantry, tanks, aircraft, whatever for the mission).

[Silverlance]

These are all really good points and awesome feedback. Thank you.

I'd just love to pilot an Elemental into battle myself, that's all.

But yes. If the IS dropped with battalions of tanks and infantry then they should definitely get that type of consumable as well. I'll make a forum poll regarding that topic too.

All in all though, I think some more AI driven elements for both sides would give this game a lot more flavor than just the standard ZERGUPRUSHKILLGAMEOVERMANGAMEOVERQUICKLIKE in five minutes of dropping.

[Koniving]

Yeah, they weren't the focus, but you can see the heavy infantry and tank presence at the beginning here.


There are tanks and vehicles in BT and Sarna is littered with them, from fuel trucks to jeeps to full-on anti-Atlas battle tanks. The weakest ones are armored comparable to the Urban Mech and Jagermech JM6-S (which both have identical armor I might add). The strongest armored tanks are pretty hefty.

Clans, in fact, also have tanks. Theirs are known for having incredible weaponry and maneuverability, but paper thin armor. Inner Sphere is known for having awful maneuverability but modest firepower and good armor (or good maneuverability and armor but crap for firepower).

On a fun note... I scrounged this up from a why Adder has a built in Flamer tidbit... It has quite a bit on elementals including pictures.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 18 June 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Cockpit is where the armor is weakest and easiest to rip through. Flamer's above the cockpit for a reason. Think about what the Clans use for infantry. They don't throw men on the ground. They throw Elementals (the genetically engineered soldiers of the Clan warrior-caste).
Vat born brutes. On Mass Effect, it'd be the Krogans with jumpjets, lasers, and claws large enough to rip through armor faster than AC/2s can.

These are typically using Elemental Battle Armor as light infantry.

For heavy infantry they use Protomechs, which are 2 to 10 ton mini-mechs.

Pilots of elemental battle armor and protomechs are known for getting a euphoric high from combat, this combined with the mental deterioration that occurs from their sub-dermal implants causes them to do absolutely insane things, such as flipping 20 ton mechs and using said 20 ton mech's legs to beat the crap out of something bigger.

You get one of these on your cockpit, you're screwed, and elementals in battle armor have incredible top speeds and jumpjets. Battle Armor and Protomechs also have the most unsurpassed humanoid movement possible. Also from what I've read, Elementals (the pilots) with the EI sub-dermal implants not only get enhanced, unparallelled control over their battle armor and protomechs the likes of which was never achieved in the Star League (and back then the movements of mechs were every bit as good as anime 08th Mobile Suit Squad and the anime Patlabor), but the pilot doesn't even have to be inside the Protomech to control it.

Some examples, the Erinyes


The Centaur.



Or as better drawn by MWO mech concept artist Alex himself, some iconic Protomechs re-envisioned.


The Clan's version of infantry are absolutely terrifying. Easy enough to kill at range, but an Adder's firing rate with ER PPCs is incredibly slow, and firing both at once was suicide for the pilot. (If the heat of firing 2 ER PPCs one at a time across 10 seconds is enough for a pilot to possibly pass out from, imagine the heat of firing them both at once when only 15 heat is a level 1 shutdown risk, and 30 heat+ is a non-override-able mandatory shutdown?)

Even Inner Sphere infantry could be a threat, though they'd likely just pop the hatch, get in and use a pistol to shoot the pilot.

Bringing us back to why the flamer...
The hatch is on top of the phallus that the Adder/Puma houses the pilot in (it's even on the 3D model). The overhead shield helps protect that and keep things from being able to easily get to the hatch. No one's getting on it without the pilot seeing it, unless that threat comes up from the legs, and even then one touch of the flamer will solve all the pilot's problems. Pilots don't have to worry about small threats on the Transplast® viewport (transparent metal plating) as it factually has more armor than a Jenner's leg in lore..

Can't do that with a small laser.

Now we just need a consumable infantry module.

[DI3T3R]

* Elementals, Infantry and Tanks: Yes please.

* Grouping:
- Will the Elementals count as individual units?
- Will the Point be one individual unit? (Other Elementals are AI, marching in formation with you, shooting what you shoot, swarming what you swarm, removed one by one as your Point takes damage)

* Players as Elementals:
- not that much new equipment (bascially a tiny Mech with one hit-location, SL, SRM, JJ)
- good thing: more players per match = less matches overall for PGI to host
- bad thing: more players per match = more synchronization needed
- no AI necessary

* Deployment
- consumable: would allow "clean" matches
- auxiliaries: Elementals would be a permanent feature in every match

[Nova Latios Storm]

Elementals should be mechs that you can "buy!" from the store like normal mechs. Can be edited in the mechlab. Weapons, cockpit etc.

Now THAT! would be the bomb!

[Silverlance]

Keep up the awesome suggestions guys. This is great. And @Koniving, damn good post.

[Sky Hawk]

Elementals would be sure fun.. but just, when we become some weapons agains them too.. With my ERLL's, I can't hit even a moving light Mechs, how big would be my chance, to hit an moving Elementals?

I don't know, exists an "fly-flap" in BT? (I would use it of course against those bugs/birds/pyromans too...)

Edited by Sky Hawk, 24 June 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Koniving]

Sky Hawk, on 24 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Elementals would be sure fun.. but just, when we become some weapons agains them too.. With my ERLL's, I can't hit even a moving light Mechs, how big would be my chance, to hit an moving Elementals?

I don't know, exists an "fly-flap" in BT? (I would use it of course against those bugs/birds/pyromans too...)

Flamers, MGs and AC/2s were the choice anti-infantry weapons in Battletech. AC/2s for infantry in buildings and protomechs (mainly due to the need to have long range to hit them with, they'd be in range, attack and out of range too quickly in TT due to movement and attack penalties involved with fighting them).

MGs and Flamers were ideal against Battle Armor and infantry. (The Firestarter in lore is 100% anti-infantry; it's the only reason the Firestarter even exists).

There's likely some sort of traps that could be used. I know Clan mechs such as the Summoner and the Hellbringer were equipped with anti-personnel pods. Drop these around your legs and they blow up killing infantry.

When it comes to tanks, which I doubt will ever appear in MWO, they are as strong as mechs but are unable to get back up if knocked over. The typical tank is 35 to 80 tons (with some up to 100), and at range can be equally able to defeat a battlemech, however they tend to have much fewer weapons. Up close, however, the life expectancy of a tank becomes greatly reduced (as mechs can punch, kick, break their barrels, a heavy enough mech can flip the a lighter tank, etc.) You'd use your regular weapons against them.

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Xoxim SC]

Can you imagine the hit registration issues elementals would cause?

I like the idea of tanks and such, possibly increasing the player count to 14-15 to allow for their player controlled deployment, but that's about it.

[Furniture]

Another important aspect of Clan Elemental use that needs to be pointed out is that one of the unique things about Clan Omnimechs that made them different from their 2nd line non-omnis, or the IS standard mechs is that they had modular pieces designed specifically for Elementals to ride on the Omnimech into battle.

In TT you could mount a single point (5 Elementals) onto one Omnimech. They would attach to various torso locations on the front and back of the mech and ride around with it (the very first Omnimech to be designed to carry Elementals into battle was the Nova). This was a huge advantage compared to IS battle armor which had to move on foot, because battle armored infantry on foot moved very slow compared to battlemechs in the game. When the combat was joined, the Elementals could jump off and engage, and then climb back on to any Omnimech later after their job was done. A fun thing to do was to drop a point off to finish off legged or crippled enemy mechs while your Omnis moved on to engage more threatening enemies.

And there were different types of weapons on the Elementals too. All carried an SRM 2 launcher without reloads, and their anti-armor claws, but their main weapon could be either a small laser, machine gun, or flamer. That would open up the possibility of being able to choose what weapons your consumable elemental point was equipped with. Say, a Small Laser Elemental Point consumable, or a Machine gun Elemental Point to deploy when you encounter and enemy with his armor stripped.

[Silverlance]

Furniture, on 24 June 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Another important aspect of Clan Elemental use that needs to be pointed out is that one of the unique things about Clan Omnimechs that made them different from their 2nd line non-omnis, or the IS standard mechs is that they had modular pieces designed specifically for Elementals to ride on the Omnimech into battle.

In TT you could mount a single point (5 Elementals) onto one Omnimech. They would attach to various torso locations on the front and back of the mech and ride around with it (the very first Omnimech to be designed to carry Elementals into battle was the Nova). This was a huge advantage compared to IS battle armor which had to move on foot, because battle armored infantry on foot moved very slow compared to battlemechs in the game. When the combat was joined, the Elementals could jump off and engage, and then climb back on to any Omnimech later after their job was done. A fun thing to do was to drop a point off to finish off legged or crippled enemy mechs while your Omnis moved on to engage more threatening enemies.

And there were different types of weapons on the Elementals too. All carried an SRM 2 launcher without reloads, and their anti-armor claws, but their main weapon could be either a small laser, machine gun, or flamer. That would open up the possibility of being able to choose what weapons your consumable elemental point was equipped with. Say, a Small Laser Elemental Point consumable, or a Machine gun Elemental Point to deploy when you encounter and enemy with his armor stripped.

Good points. But the Elementals also could carry a Hyper Laser Cutter for tearing through armor to get to internals. They could also carry small pulse lasers for anti mech capabilities and they could even be outfitted with a small gauss rifle.

Either way, I'm sure PGI will put something damn good together to get them into the game one way or another. Ultimately, this game needs more flavor and more danger other than one team face stomping the other in the first five minutes.

I want a slugfest. Drawn out matches where each team really has to work hard to get the win is so much better.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

we were supposed to be in solaris over a year 'n a half ago

[Zolaz]

I need a star of Elementals strapped to my mech.

[Chihuahuablend]

Nova Latios Storm, on 24 June 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Elementals should be mechs that you can "buy!" from the store like normal mechs. Can be edited in the mechlab. Weapons, cockpit etc.

Now THAT! would be the bomb!

given how tiny a locust is compared to all the other mechs, I can't imagine it being overly difficult to code a elemental as a micromech that just has a different set of weapons you can put on it, different slots etc.
All the things needed to put them in the game from a coding standpoint should technically already exist. Would be cool

[DI3T3R]

Chihuahuablend, on 25 June 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

given how tiny a locust is compared to all the other mechs, I can't imagine it being overly difficult to code a elemental as a micromech that just has a different set of weapons you can put on it, different slots etc.
All the things needed to put them in the game from a coding standpoint should technically already exist. Would be cool

Point is: You cannot do that.

You have to give each player the ability to command a similar amount of firepower.
Light Mech defeats Assault, Assault defeats Heavy, Heavy defeats Medium, Medium defeats Light.
Piloting a single Elemental would not fit into this picture, you have to give each player command of at least a single Point.

That's why my suggestion is:
- You pilot a single Elemental, accompanied by 4 AI-Elementals who copy your movements and march in formation with you.
- The whole Point counts as one vehicle with 5 hit-locations, each hit-location one Elemental.
- If one of your Elementals gets destroyed, your "vehicle" shrinks in size and you lose firepower.
- Your Point counts as destroyed when all 5 hit-locations have been destroyed.

And equipment? Per canon there is not much left to modify on a standard Elemental-armour.
* armour - fixed
* structure - fixed
* JJs - fixed
* right arm: small laser or flamer
* left arm: MG (+ammo?)
* torso: one-shot SRM2

* upgrade-suggestion: hitpoints regenerate with HarJel

[Mayhem McCrea]

Voted for elementals as a consumable item with cbill cost. I envision it as taking 2 module slots, and possibly replacing artillery for clan mechs. When used, will call 5 elementals down to cling to/ride on your mech. This part would be done behind cover as the elementals drop in and jump onto you.

Then they ride along on YOUR mech (possibly getting shot off) until a hostile gets within 100 meters. First hostile to do so gets jumped by the elementals, (leap from your mech onto theirs,) who cling to it for a while, flamering and cutting pretty much at random (preferably with highly visible sparks and fire effects so it's easy to tell if those elementals are riding along or attacking) for a minute or two, at which point they bail, or until flamered/MG'd off by a friendly.

Exact ranges, time before the elementals leave, and damage they do can all be adjusted, but I was trying for something that would be cool BUT require minimal behavioral AI for the toads.