78 replies to this topic

[Bassault]

IS 20 tonners get a shitload of matchscore inflation points which bring up your matchscore very easily, which give you more PSR. At the end of the day if you're scouting, doing damage, killing opponents, and winning games, your PSR will go up, no matter what mech you're playing.

[Vxheous]

Tam Wolfcry, on 03 March 2023 - 01:18 PM, said:

That is not accurate. At first I didn't understand how PSR worked, I do now. I think it could be better and am not satisfied with how its done. Doesn't mean I only think it should be done how I think. Reading is fundamental.

What I really don't agree with is how they set the pilot skill points for each match. I think it should take into greater consideration the size, type, and role of the mech. Or do you think that a Locust should do the same as a Wolverine? or an Atlas?

They add tools to the game so that mechs can scout, harass, etc without being pure damage dealers...especially in light of limitations of size and space on light mechs. My experience then showed me that despite having decent, proportional success, that the PSR was still going down. That highlighted the fact that really, only damage matters in this game in regards to PSR and whatever system they are using for it, does not take those factors into reasonable consideration.

I don't like the fact that if I wanted to specifically increase my PSR, then I'd have to limit myself to certain mechs and styles of play. Why include those other sorts of functionality in the game if they really don't mean anything? Gee, why wouldn't you want to appeal to more players by allowing more types of gameplay?

Clearly you are quite happy with "Me shoot, they go Boom!" Just don't assume everyone else wants only that.

Light mechs built and played properly do just as much damage as all the other weight classes. I don't play much anymore, but looking back, my stats in a Flea -17 (20 ton IS mech) is 169 wins to 34 losses (4.97 W/L ratio) with 271 kills and 73 deaths (3.71 K/D) and average damage per match is 420 damage. Fleas are played primarily as backstabbers.

End of the day, if you're not doing damage on top of the spotting and "scouting" you're not actually contibuting to your teams success, no matter what you think.

[crazytimes]

Tam Wolfcry, on 03 March 2023 - 01:18 PM, said:

They add tools to the game so that mechs can scout, harass, etc without being pure damage dealers...especially in light of limitations of size and space on light mechs. My experience then showed me that despite having decent, proportional success, that the PSR was still going down.

If you are struggling in tier 5 and still going down in tier 5- what do you think your experience would be like if your PSR was artifically inflated and you were suddenly playing against optimised builds with vaguely competent pilots? Do you see yourself having fun whilst "spotting" then?

Quote

I don't like the fact that if I wanted to specifically increase my PSR, then I'd have to limit myself to certain mechs and styles of play. Why include those other sorts of functionality in the game if they really don't mean anything? Gee, why wouldn't you want to appeal to more players by allowing more types of gameplay?

You have absolutely no requirement to increase your PSR for any reason other than wanting to play against better builds and players. That's it. Better players actually get lower match rewards in terms of c-bills and XP because they are more likely to core a mech out than spread damage. I've seen tier 5 match cards with 5 or 6 people with +1000 damage- that doesn't often happen in higher tier matches.

Quote

Clearly you are quite happy with "Me shoot, they go Boom!" Just don't assume everyone else wants only that.

The magic of PSR is that if you don't want to be good at shooting people- you can just stay in tier 5 and enjoy scouting and 30 points of back armour on bracket builds. If you want to play against better builds and players then change your way of playing- don't expect the system to change to artificially inflate your outcome.

You've been playing for 7 years.. I'm assumig this whole thing is a troll anyhow.

[Tam Wolfcry]

I absolutely love the assumptions people keep making in this thread. Again, reading is fundamental. But please, keep on spouting new and completely wrong claims that have nothing to do with a poor PSR system.

[Heavy Money]

Tam Wolfcry, on 06 March 2023 - 06:57 AM, said:

I absolutely love the assumptions people keep making in this thread. Again, reading is fundamental. But please, keep on spouting new and completely wrong claims that have nothing to do with a poor PSR system.

They aren't going to change the PSR system to reward you standing around tagging people in a locust. Give it up.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Tam Wolfcry, on 06 March 2023 - 06:57 AM, said:

I've played Locusts. I hear ya.

The OP's points are valid, but like everyone else's, it's their opinions on how PSR should work. And the objective of PSR is to sort players into buckets for matchmaking, to, ideally, compete with other players that perform at a similar level (or maybe play the game in a similar way if that means doing more scouting and less damage).

There is a fair complaint here that PSR goes down for a player even if they "saved" the match, like in Conquest. Personally, I think fulfilling the objective should increase your match score more so your PSR is higher for doing those things. But in any way you determine a player "saved" the game, you need some reliable way to quantify that while also ensuring that mechanic isn't able or is not likely to be abused.

If the OP wants to run a Locust with SRM2 and a tag, they're welcome to, but no, it's not an effective loadout. Btw, not all Locusts are created equal. The 1E laserboat is probably the most effective and can do 700 damage but other variants aren't so fortunate. The biggest problem is tonnage limits followed by hardpoint number and type. I probably average 200-250 dmg whenever I play mine. I accept that I'm gimping myself (and my team) and I basically only play them if I feel like playing something different that moment. Usually only a few matches and I jump into something better.

[BLACKR0SE]

Using light mechs is really troublesome. I can not do this. I don't have that ability. Whichever machine I buy, my score decreases. but I'm good with big machines. It's not impossible, but it's difficult.

When you drive a big machine, you drive it like you're driving a truck. When you use light machines, you jump and dance. My reflexes are not that good. I'm sorry.

Edited by TAMTAMBABY, 07 March 2023 - 11:17 AM.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

This is an interesting topic for me, so I might as well talk about it.

To the original post:
PSR changes are determined by a combination of factors, mainly: Your match score, Whether your team won or lost, The game mode, How high your match score is relative your own team, How high your match score is relative to all players on the server, etc.

This means that if you dealt 500 damage, but most other players dealt more than 500 damage, you can expect PSR loss. However, if you dealt 400 damage, but most other players dealt less than 200 damage, expect a PSR gain. This is fine because PSR’s sole function is as a matchmaking tool: it prevents new or less gifted players from matching against stronger players.

Also, focusing on capping is MUCH more effective to your PSR in Conquest than, say, Domination or Assault. Sometimes, you don’t even need to exceed 100 damage to get a PSR gain in Conquest as long as you are contributing significantly in other factors such as scouting, UAV kills, capping, or squirreling/ flanking (very possible in an assault mech, don’t get me wrong, especially a brawler assault). I once had a match score of around 380 on Tourmaline Desert in an Anansi despite only dealing about 140 damage IIRC.

Match score is indeed the main factor to PSR changes, and I do personally believe that damage is too much of a determinant. Yes damage is most important, but I also think components destroyed, KMDD, and savior kills need more influence. Lance in formation is probably unnecessary in the game’s current build – its removal will indirectly better reward the currently underrepresented lurking and map control specific maneuvers.

That said, if you want a truly balanced game, and it does seem like that is the direction MWO is heading, then PSR should never account for mech tonnage (i.e. minimize the impact of Protected Light, and Brawling). My personal experience is that I don’t have too much issue dealing high amounts of damage as a light mech versus as an assault. Yes it is easier to deal higher amounts of damage as an assault, but I would certainly not go as far as saying it is impossible to consistently deal +500 damage in a 20-ton mech. If I did then I would be lying through my teeth.


To the other posts from OP:
It does seem you superficially want PSR stats to change, while you are actually indifferent to the results of how much PSR you personally gain or lose. I do like a constructive discussion:

Whether a mech deals damage, and how, is almost solely determined by the player themselves.
You can run a Rocket, TAG, or NARC Locust, or an SRM or ERML Locust. Choice is yours.
However, I will say that I just don’t personally see how anyone can make your 2SRM2 + TAG Locust work. Its too much of a Frankenstein’s mech, to put a long story short. If you want a hybrid build than try 2SRM2 + 2SPL or 2SRM4 + 2SL on LCT-1M. Can’t find a good bracket build, but that is more a Locust exclusive problem just as you won’t find a MG build on a Commando.

In addition, I personally can consistently earn +500 damage (heck +700 damage actually), in my stronger Locust builds. Maybe I am an anomaly, but suggesting “there is no way every Locust can do massive damage” is just not true.

If you think that a specially designed build is too “cheesy” and you want to stick to builds you like, that is fine. However, these builds are designed for the purpose of maximizing the effectiveness of their pilot in a particular role, so if you DON’T use these builds, expect to perform worse than other players at the outset. These builds don’t always do big damage: my LPPC Pirates’ Bane was designed as a stealthy support mech for screening ECM mechs, spotting for IDF with the aid of the PPCs, etc. but it is still useful IMO and certainly capable of high scores. However, most builds are designed to hurt enemies as much as possible – because that is what you do in a tactical shooter. In Counter-Strike, for example, AWPs don’t fire beach balls and AK-47s don’t fire teddy bears for the purpose of distracting the enemy or forcing people to make love not war, they fire bullets that deal damage and hopefully take enemies out of the game. Battletech is different in that it is more of an actual strategy game.

AMS no longer contributes to score, and why does it need extra score? By reducing incoming damage, you prolong you and your teammates activity on the battlefield, which indirectly leads to more score anyway.

There has been many discussions about PSR, and the AMS change is the most recent. About ignoring PSR: this was directed at a subset of players who constantly whined that they were not considered Tier 1 players for some egotistical reason. I am not saying YOU in particular are this type of player, but I have experienced these players in some of my games and my arguments remain the same both in the forums and in the actual game.

Incursion is not a popular game mode because it is poorly implemented. Yes your team won because you destroyed the base, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time, you would have been overwhelmed before you destroyed the entire base. PSR is working as intended there. It is a sad fact that I do want to address later, but hopefully you understand the underlying issues.


I think Tarl Cabot made a detailed explanation and research regarding how PSR works. Cannot remember what it was, but hopefully someone can bring it up.

I see you want to take into account the role of a mech, but how exactly will that work in MWO? For example, how would you make an LPPC + NARC + AMS + BAP Zeus get rewarded similarly as a pure LPPC + AC10 Zeus? The only way to account for roles is to account for each specific weapon, so that hopefully all roles will then be covered. That is an ongoing discussion that you can see from the MWO Comp Discord.

AFAIK entrying as a rocket build or scouting with the help of AP + TC is viable. I don’t think they are particularly well balanced though in QP at least, and I clearly see that most people don’t even have a rudimentary clue on how to use these mechs.

For example, you don’t yeet the first player you see as a rocket build, and you don’t YOLO into the enemy with UAVs and spam the target button as fast as possible as a build with strong scouting ability. Respectively: You use your rockets to kill a key playermaker on the enemy team at the perfect time while scouting and using your backup weapons to shoot UAVs + distract for the rest of the time. As a scout, you use your slightly weaker weapons to repeatedly shoot the enemy, but keeping in mind that you can gather targeting info extremely quickly (as opposed to very slowly in the case of most builds). With this information you need to communicate this to the rest of your team, otherwise your TC + AP is useless.

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 08 March 2023 - 03:52 AM.

[RottenAwfulPilot]

it doesnt matter, none of you will ever be as good as RottenAwfulPilot. Even "OFF'd" he is still wrecking you

[RickySpanish]

TAMTAMBABY, on 07 March 2023 - 11:16 AM, said:

Using light mechs is really troublesome. I can not do this. I don't have that ability. Whichever machine I buy, my score decreases. but I'm good with big machines. It's not impossible, but it's difficult.

When you drive a big machine, you drive it like you're driving a truck. When you use light machines, you jump and dance. My reflexes are not that good. I'm sorry.

And that's fine! Everyone has that performance sweet spot where things just work better. I personally have the opposite problem to you - I find it hard to move about and position in the bigger 'Mechs, and often end up in unfavourable situations taking damage I should have avoided.

As others have said, don't even pay attention to that PSR arrow, your pilot tier is not some accolade to beat others with. What's important is whether you are having fun or not. Play the game the way you enjoy, and if you are having fun then who cares what your rating is? Higher tiers are shat up with mad rotation anyway, probably why I prefer the faster classes.

Edited by RickySpanish, 08 March 2023 - 07:49 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

RickySpanish, on 08 March 2023 - 07:49 AM, said:

Higher tiers are shat up with mad rotation anyway, probably why I prefer the faster classes.

Just stop voting for Canyon or Hibernal and the rotation problem largely goes away. It does happen on some other maps to a limited extent sometimes, but those two are in a whole different league of 'rev your engine'

Hibernal / Canyon pretty much guarantee Nascar in pugs, due to the fact that there is always cover to keep rotating, combined with the shortage of ramps (and how narrow they are). Choosing fast mechs and just going with the rotato isnt helping, its adding to the issue.

[Tarl Cabot]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 March 2023 - 08:33 AM, said:

Just stop voting for Canyon or Hibernal and the rotation problem largely goes away. It does happen on some other maps to a limited extent sometimes, but those two are in a whole different league of 'rev your engine'

Hibernal / Canyon pretty much guarantee Nascar in pugs, due to the fact that there is always cover to keep rotating, combined with the shortage of ramps (and how narrow they are). Choosing fast mechs and just going with the rotato isnt helping, its adding to the issue.

This ^^^ And one side almost always fails to take or keep the high ground and it ends up being a shoot up the fish in the barrel... And running away means one is not firing on the reds while the reds are firing on the blues...

[Widowmaker1981]

Tarl Cabot, on 08 March 2023 - 06:27 PM, said:

This ^^^ And one side almost always fails to take or keep the high ground and it ends up being a shoot up the fish in the barrel... And running away means one is not firing on the reds while the reds are firing on the blues...

What i dont understand is why those two maps are so stupidly popular, its rare that they arent chosen when available.

Do people really not realize that the map design leads to Nascar, or is it just that many of the people playing fast mechs often WANT Nascar to happen?

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2023 - 03:46 AM, said:

What i dont understand is why those two maps are so stupidly popular, its rare that they arent chosen when available.

Do people really not realize that the map design leads to Nascar, or is it just that many of the people playing fast mechs often WANT Nascar to happen?

In my tier selection yet, hibernal isn't majorly common during NA prime. Have had nights where canyon is selected 9 or so times in a row.
I suspect that at least in the case of canyon it's because you can get on the top level and shoot clear across the map for some - or on the flipside because the map is channeled and can more or less mitigate the LL and guass party. Hibernal doesn't get picked enough for me, but from my memory it seems that it has a lot of channel cover to reduce that long range effectiveness.

[RickySpanish]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 March 2023 - 08:33 AM, said:

Just stop voting for Canyon or Hibernal and the rotation problem largely goes away. It does happen on some other maps to a limited extent sometimes, but those two are in a whole different league of 'rev your engine'

Hibernal / Canyon pretty much guarantee Nascar in pugs, due to the fact that there is always cover to keep rotating, combined with the shortage of ramps (and how narrow they are). Choosing fast mechs and just going with the rotato isnt helping, its adding to the issue.

Fast 'Mechs for life. In a fast 'Mech you can easily setup a counter rotation position, shoot at the people coming at you single file, AND escape back to your team without being eaten alive. I don't pick speed to rotate harder, I pick it so I can be further from my team for a better firing angle and still be safe.

I don't mind Hibernal or Canyon tbh, though they are not often my preferred picks - I fancy Rubellite, Crimson and River/Solaris City a lot more. Canyon and Hibernal are 'OK' because setting up counter rotation is so easy. Everyone goes the same way.

[Widowmaker1981]

sycocys, on 09 March 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

...it seems that it has a lot of channel cover to reduce that long range effectiveness.

Yes, exactly. Thats a big part of what causes the Nascar, the fact there is complete cover so you can keep on rotating forever without reaching a point where you are exposing yourself to long range fire.

[Widowmaker1981]

RickySpanish, on 09 March 2023 - 07:07 AM, said:

Fast 'Mechs for life. In a fast 'Mech you can easily setup a counter rotation position, shoot at the people coming at you single file, AND escape back to your team without being eaten alive. I don't pick speed to rotate harder, I pick it so I can be further from my team for a better firing angle and still be safe.

I don't mind Hibernal or Canyon tbh, though they are not often my preferred picks - I fancy Rubellite, Crimson and River/Solaris City a lot more. Canyon and Hibernal are 'OK' because setting up counter rotation is so easy. Everyone goes the same way.

Yeah, im more of a fatty pilot these days, though i wont play anything below movement 4 speed (64 or 69 kph) purely because of Canyon / Hibernal. I also pretty much only play mechs with at least 1 JJ for the same reason.

Setting up counter rotation isnt really often feasible in pugs, because youd have to get them to stop rotating first. In a team on comms none of this is applicable, obviously.

Rubellite Oasis is great, probably my current favourite map, along with Vitric Station.

Grim Plexus, Crimson Strait, Tourmaline, River City, Emerald Vale, Viridian Bog, Mining Complex, Forest Colony Classic + snow, Frozen City Classic (Night), HPG and Caustic Valley are all good as far as im concerned

Polar Highlands and Terra Therma are not really my jam, but i dont have a big problem with them

I dislike Frozen City Classic and Forest Colony (new) because the visibility is terrible.

Frozen City (new) is OK unless its assault. Assault, if you didnt bring ERLLs, it SUCKS. Alpine sucks unless its domination or conquest for the same reason.

I dont like Solaris City because its too cramped and there is almost no vertical cover. Ill be honest that im a bit biased here because i dont like brawling as a playstyle.

I detest Canyon and Hibernal because of the Nascar effect. Hibernal is significantly worse since the changes to Canyon added more ramps. For me, Hibernal is by far and away the worst map in the game.

(Edit: I cant really comment on Hellebore as i just dont know it well enough yet, so i get lost a lot and have bad games, but thats a me problem at the moment. Map seems like its probably decent i think.)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 March 2023 - 07:47 AM.

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2023 - 07:13 AM, said:

Yes, exactly. Thats a big part of what causes the Nascar, the fact there is complete cover so you can keep on rotating forever without reaching a point where you are exposing yourself to long range fire.

It would be better if it were about double the size and a bit more open in most of the spots, but most of this game's map design (especially the post classic maps) seem to be pushed towards high ground vs low ground without any sense of reality built into the designs/layouts.
The newer forest might be the closest to a realistic terrain type map layout, but they borked it with the mountain wall down the one side. If they had left that traversable the whole map could have been a rolling forest fight.
Polar isn't too bad for terrain either, but I always get a laugh out of Bog with the mech sized stairs carved into the plateau rocks - why would anyone ever bother to do that?
Or Crimson with the tunnel through the mountain that would have been far easier to just highway around than carve out the already low side - might make a limited amount of sense if it tunneled through to the back section of the saddle area.

A couple of the FP maps would have been great to adapt over and remove the gate pinch points, not a huge fan of the dota type feel overall but they did do a good job at providing just enough cover to maneuver and try to counter height and long range without being such a push to unnaturally force it either direction.

[Widowmaker1981]

sycocys, on 09 March 2023 - 07:39 AM, said:

It would be better if it were about double the size and a bit more open in most of the spots, but most of this game's map design (especially the post classic maps) seem to be pushed towards high ground vs low ground without any sense of reality built into the designs/layouts.
The newer forest might be the closest to a realistic terrain type map layout, but they borked it with the mountain wall down the one side. If they had left that traversable the whole map could have been a rolling forest fight.
Polar isn't too bad for terrain either, but I always get a laugh out of Bog with the mech sized stairs carved into the plateau rocks - why would anyone ever bother to do that?
Or Crimson with the tunnel through the mountain that would have been far easier to just highway around than carve out the already low side - might make a limited amount of sense if it tunneled through to the back section of the saddle area.

A couple of the FP maps would have been great to adapt over and remove the gate pinch points, not a huge fan of the dota type feel overall but they did do a good job at providing just enough cover to maneuver and try to counter height and long range without being such a push to unnaturally force it either direction.

Ill be honest, i dont care if the terrain is realistic, i care if it leads to (what i consider to be) enjoyable matches.

I dont ever find matches won by rotation to be enjoyable as they are almost always stomps. Id rather lose a close fought game than win a 12-0 stomp, so my primary focus is on wanting maps that prevent rotation - that doesnt guarantee a good match, of course, but it improves the odds a great deal.

[Ignatius Audene]

Tam Wolfcry, on 06 March 2023 - 06:57 AM, said:

I absolutely love the assumptions people keep making in this thread. Again, reading is fundamental. But please, keep on spouting new and completely wrong claims that have nothing to do with a poor PSR system.

Just checking your stats on jarls shows me, that's your sample size might be a bit to low especially with bracket builds to judge about the psr system (mm system and not an achievement!). There are no scouts in this game. Forget the tt / books. This is a fps with stompy robots. Scouting is something u do in addition while killing the red guys not your main purpose. Even in tt scouting doesnt rly exist (only indirect looks for lrm). That's rly an aspect from the novels , that's not rly possible to transfer in a video game.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 09 March 2023 - 08:56 AM.