265 replies to this topic

[RockmachinE]

Novakaine, on 23 March 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

I think Lurm's and tag need a range increase to be even slightly competitive.
With the Blue Flashlight Mob.
There is literally no counter in the game to the Blue Flashlight.
Fix that.

They just need longer target lock retention!

[Vonbach]

Playing LRMs is pointless with so many counters.

[JediPanther]

Vonbach, on 23 March 2023 - 03:31 PM, said:

Playing LRMs is pointless with so many counters.

Most the time it is but it's fun to see if you can lrm some one into making another nerf lrm thread. Last time I made a thread that counted all of them it was around 55 ways to counter with the three most common:
ecm
ams
just move behind some thing

Plus its really fun to be a jerk with a lrm 5 on a locust and just spam the missile warning on people.

[LordNothing]

Runecarver, on 23 March 2023 - 12:53 AM, said:

So nobody would be able to run LRMs unless they're grouped up. Meanwhile you can just boat other long range weapons that have optimum ranges nearly the same as LRM's maximum range, have nearly double that in their own maximum range to put some damage into you, and on top of that all hit the same spot rather than splashing.

I'd rather play war thunder if I wanted to just sit still and snipe.

bluebeams are a separate issue. i always said nerf their short range so they are more vulnerable to brawlers and squirrels.

[Armsracer]

Der Geisterbaer, on 23 March 2023 - 09:16 AM, said:

Where exactly are you taking these numbers from? 1 ton of LRM ammo has 240 "shots" while 1/2 a ton has 120 "shots" before quirks and skills for me on any mech that I'm looking at in my hangar.

From mwo's mech lab tool tips and the game itself. I'm talking about ams ammo 1/2 ton vs ams ammo 1 ton.

Are you saying that ams ammo should equal lrms per ton?

Edited by Armsracer, 23 March 2023 - 06:12 PM.

[Ihlrath]

Data's opinion on lock on weapons is shared by the Cauldron for the most part but these weapons are a part of the lore and setting of Battletech and any combined arms warfare always sees indirect weapon fire. There are plenty of ways to avoid them/keep them from being a problem they don't need yet another nerf.

[Runecarver]

sycocys, on 23 March 2023 - 03:52 AM, said:

Well if they implemented it properly, without having the system and/or being in sharing range you'd have no information whether you were sniping the blues or the reds. - A handful of tk penalties and suddenly staying 1.5k back sniping wouldn't be the greatest strategy.

What are you on about? Already, you can just snipe at people for at least some damage at that range without being able to see their paper doll. One quick glance around them or on their minimap and you can tell whos who. This nonsense would change nothing for extreme range weapons, except make people accidentally grief the rare light or medium that yolo runs into their back field.

LordNothing, on 23 March 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

bluebeams are a separate issue. i always said nerf their short range so they are more vulnerable to brawlers and squirrels.

So you keep the primary issue, where your torso or leg are melted by pin point firepower at over 900m. They already fold if you get close untouched with brawl weapons. But you barely can, because they are so easy to use and mechs can carry so much of it to just melt your armor to the point the odds are stacked against you by the time you do get close.

People are so eager to keep nerfing one of the weakest weapons in the game or adding more hoops to jump through for them to be able to play. While NO OTHER WEAPON HAS TO GO THROUGH THAT. To the point that playing LRMs requires more effort to do well with now than any other weapon.

Indirect LRMs have already been made borderline impossible to use around their maximum range, entirely reliant on NARC or for the opponent to make monumental mistakes in positioning and exposure. Especially with how many ECM mechs we have that increase indirect lock times by 50%.

Edited by Runecarver, 23 March 2023 - 11:51 PM.

[Curccu]

LordNothing, on 23 March 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

bluebeams are a separate issue.

Yes and no Gauss/bluebeams is direct competition for LRMs and with even hint of skill gauss/bluebeams win always if those two clash. Bluebeams also keeps lurmboats in hiding because they have no chance to get lock, shoot missiles and hit target with their own LOS lock without getting rekt by bluebeams.

And for some reason direwolfs for example have free 25% radar derp in head in addition to DWF-C ECM CT that everyone is running now.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

D A T A, on 03 March 2023 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'd like to hear what people think about the topic.


1) LRMs have very low skill requirements, they are very close to an aimbot, which is the negation itself of the concept of PvP: they just should not be nearly as good as the other weapons, because they require no aim to be used.

2) Due to their easy nature, tier 3-4-5 are INFESTED by LRM rains, and at times these filthy aimbots bring cancer even in comp, which is laughable per se.

3) The overabundance of LRMs causes the ECM spam as a reaction, because all the other countermeasures got nerfed directly or indirectly into the dust.

4) LRM rains invalidate many slow mechs without ecm, reducing game diversity, because they are just too big to use many objects as covers and LRMs now travel too fast to even let them go to cover, due to the stupidity of the LRM velocity buffs delivered by Chris, pre cauldron.

5) AMS/LAMS are useless, you get rained regardless

6) LRMs can not be balanced on AMS solely, because many clan omnis can not effectively mount it.

7) LRMS got buffed repeatedly in a direct or indirect way in the last 4 years (velocity buff, velocity tree, velocity quirks, missile HP boost, ECM nerf, Radar Deprivation nerf)


PROBLEM

I am sick of a situation where you get hit by missiles so quick that Betty can't even finish saying "warning incoming missile" anymore.
I am sick of seeing most 70-100 tonners without ecm behave just like LRM landing platforms.

PROPOSAL

Nerf LRM velocity so that slower mechs have more time to travel to their cover, and so that AMS has more time to shoot down incoming missiles.

Hey man I'm a HUGE, HUGE fan! I love your videos! great stuff.

Side-effect of the videos is that I'm seriously aware of your salt towards LRMs My god, sometimes you start ranting like crazy about them its hilarious. That said I've never seen you or another skilled player have much trouble killing a LRM boat, you are very skilled.

LRMs can be unpleasant, they can be ubiquitous especially around events like now as they are a fast way to build up score and damage. But unlike the little laser and MG boats you have done amazing videos LRMs are not a cancer. Here is the thing, LRMs are an entry level weapon for players, its one of the first systems that a new player can begin to impact the game around them actually do some damage, maybe get a kill, learn to work with their teammate to make it happen, be part of that call and response.

I'm guessing it has been so long since you sucked that you have forgotten how hard the game is for new players, and how we need them, and to keep them we don't give them an aimbot but they get access to LRMs and the benefits of it. And it doesn't stop there, as they level up they immediately see the diminishing returns of LRM as they progress through the tiers to the point LRMs are a rarity among players that good. And they are not aimbots, the number of ways to ditch missles, use cover, use ECM and ECM from teammate is well established.

From the videos of yours and others I've watched the palpable salt and aggravation you guys voice when you run into LRMs is that you have to use one of those tactics to mitigate the damage instead of what you wanted to do at a particular moment, you are so used to being able to go and kill what you want that the pause that LRMs puts in your plans is what drives you nuts... I've seen it again and again, you guys are streaming wanting to show some particular tactic or move and some dumb noob makes you take cover for a second or stops you from coming in the direction you want, and you are friggen frustrated to be troubled by a player who is so much worse than you, I don't even think you guys realize that is what is pissing you off when it happens, even on team chat I hear it, fury at not being able to roflstomp because of LRM rain.

The fact is that the pause and challenge LRM can create is a part of the game, it gives a segment of the player base without insane twitch skills, or evil sneak abilities, etc... a way to contribute and IMPACT THE MATCH.

Like I said man, I'm a huge fan and if I can ever get close to half your skill I'd be amazed, just try to remember there is a wide spectrum of players and they are all on a journey to get to be the best they can and for many the first stop on that journey is learning to target, move, communicate with teammates and the UI via LRMs.

[L1f3H4ck]

I think LRMs are in a pretty good place actually, and I do play them a bunch. They do seem strong in lower tiers, but learning how they can deny an area and how to avoid them is just part of the curve for me.

It is true though that we basically get C3 for free. So rather than changing the weapon, I'd love to see them tackle that. I don't know how difficult the change would be, but I would make spotting active, requiring the spotting mech to achieve a virtual missile lock before a friendly mech can fire on it indirectly.

To take it one step further, I'd split the damage done count and all rewards that go with it between the two mechs, because right now, holding locks, ie getting shot so the LRM boat doesn't have to expose nets you those cute cbill rewards, but no real score, anyone who ever narced for a group for any amount of time knows how it's killing PSR and earnings.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 24 March 2023 - 12:04 AM, said:

Yes and no Gauss/bluebeams is direct competition for LRMs and with even hint of skill gauss/bluebeams win always if those two clash. Bluebeams also keeps lurmboats in hiding because they have no chance to get lock, shoot missiles and hit target with their own LOS lock without getting rekt by bluebeams.

And for some reason direwolfs for example have free 25% radar derp in head in addition to DWF-C ECM CT that everyone is running now.

the fact that people keep lumping things together like that is why we cant make any traction on obvious problems. you need to divide and conquer these kind of outlier balance issues.

[L1f3H4ck]

Curccu, on 24 March 2023 - 12:04 AM, said:

Yes and no Gauss/bluebeams is direct competition for LRMs and with even hint of skill gauss/bluebeams win always if those two clash. Bluebeams also keeps lurmboats in hiding because they have no chance to get lock, shoot missiles and hit target with their own LOS lock without getting rekt by bluebeams.

And for some reason direwolfs for example have free 25% radar derp in head in addition to DWF-C ECM CT that everyone is running now.

No they're not, they're fundamentally different. Direct fire weapons will never be able to switch engagements to fire into like LRMS, and LRMs will never have the accuracy of direct fire weapons. The only thing they have in common is the range bracket and nothing else.

[RockmachinE]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 24 March 2023 - 12:09 AM, said:

From the videos of yours and others I've watched the palpable salt and aggravation you guys voice when you run into LRMs is that you have to use one of those tactics to mitigate the damage instead of what you wanted to do at a particular moment, you are so used to being able to go and kill what you want that the pause that LRMs puts in your plans is what drives you nuts... I've seen it again and again, you guys are streaming wanting to show some particular tactic or move and some dumb noob makes you take cover for a second or stops you from coming in the direction you want, and you are friggen frustrated to be troubled by a player who is so much worse than you, I don't even think you guys realize that is what is pissing you off when it happens, even on team chat I hear it, fury at not being able to roflstomp because of LRM rain.

The fact is that the pause and challenge LRM can create is a part of the game, it gives a segment of the player base without insane twitch skills, or evil sneak abilities, etc... a way to contribute and IMPACT THE MATCH.

Like I said man, I'm a huge fan and if I can ever get close to half your skill I'd be amazed, just try to remember there is a wide spectrum of players and they are all on a journey to get to be the best they can and for many the first stop on that journey is learning to target, move, communicate with teammates and the UI via LRMs.

To sum it up. They don't like them, it doesn't suit their play style, so they want to change them under the guise of balance again. They just want the game to play in the style they like.

[sycocys]

Runecarver, on 23 March 2023 - 11:30 PM, said:

What are you on about? Already, you can just snipe at people for at least some damage at that range without being able to see their paper doll. One quick glance around them or on their minimap and you can tell whos who. This nonsense would change nothing for extreme range weapons, except make people accidentally grief the rare light or medium that yolo runs into their back field.

Yes you can fire at mechs without targets -while if you remove the automatic c3 (which is regardless of range) you lose your blues off the map and off your forward viewing hud/screen.

Are you going to be dumping alphas into mechs that you can no longer identify as being not your team? Some of you will, at least until you pull multiple tk penalties.

[CrazyWorm9]

LRMS are fine as is they don't need touched again if you dare tweak them they will make game implode.

On serious note ever try to think of a way to make using a single launcher work better than boating and having it work with other direct weapons as well

[Curccu]

Dakkalistic, on 24 March 2023 - 02:04 AM, said:

I think LRMs are in a pretty good place actually, and I do play them a bunch. They do seem strong in lower tiers, but learning how they can deny an area and how to avoid them is just part of the curve for me.

It is true though that we basically get C3 for free. So rather than changing the weapon, I'd love to see them tackle that. I don't know how difficult the change would be, but I would make spotting active, requiring the spotting mech to achieve a virtual missile lock before a friendly mech can fire on it indirectly.

To take it one step further, I'd split the damage done count and all rewards that go with it between the two mechs, because right now, holding locks, ie getting shot so the LRM boat doesn't have to expose nets you those cute cbill rewards, but no real score, anyone who ever narced for a group for any amount of time knows how it's killing PSR and earnings.

How does this balance LRMs? You just proposed two massive nerfs to LRMs (which is in bad place already even if data is bullshitting otherwise) and propose nothing positive to LRMs.

PS. I do agree that giving locks to others should reward player way more than it currently does.

CrazyWorm9, on 24 March 2023 - 04:02 AM, said:

LRMS are fine as is they don't need touched again if you dare tweak them they will make game implode.

On serious note ever try to think of a way to make using a single launcher work better than boating and having it work with other direct weapons as well

Is there any weapon in this game that works better as single weapon than as many same as possible?

Edited by Curccu, 24 March 2023 - 04:40 AM.

[CrazyWorm9]

Curccu, on 24 March 2023 - 04:37 AM, said:

Is there any weapon in this game that works better as single weapon than as many same as possible?

AC20 LB20X Uac 20 Heavy PPC Heavy Gauss all can use just 1 but usually are paired with other weapons

usually they are brawler setups so many have hard time making their builds work

Edited by CrazyWorm9, 24 March 2023 - 04:47 AM.

[Curccu]

CrazyWorm9, on 24 March 2023 - 04:45 AM, said:

AC20 LB20X Uac 20 Heavy PPC Heavy Gauss all can use just 1 but usually are paired with other weapons

usually they are brawler setups so many have hard time making their builds work

Ok let me rephrase is there any weapon in the game that is better as single than multiple of same if we don't account ghostheat. Make a build for that is better with just 1 something instead of many of those (if that mech has tonnage and slots to carry multiple of those)

You can shoot two heavy peeps without penalty. Better boated. You don't really wanna brawl weapon with hard minimum range..
You can shoot two heavy gauss I have yet to witness a build that is better with 1 of those than two of those. anh-1x for example 50 damage PPFLD is better than 25 damage.
LB20-X is better boated.
UAC20 is better boated.
AC20 is better boated.

the check engine light, on 24 March 2023 - 05:06 AM, said:

Heavy PPCs seem just outright bad to me unless you have an HSL+ on them so you can run 3 and get 45 pinpoint for things like headcaps. In any other application I would rather run PPCs.

Heavy peeps are pretty bad at the moment, specially after normal peeps had their hard minimum range removed but heavy peeps did not (At least I haven't seen that being done in any patch note.).

Edited by Curccu, 24 March 2023 - 05:28 AM.

[Runecarver]

Curccu, on 24 March 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

Heavy peeps are pretty bad at the moment, specially after normal peeps had their hard minimum range removed but heavy peeps did not (At least I haven't seen that being done in any patch note.).

It wasn't removed, it was changed to be the same type as clan LRMs. Where you still deal full damage at 89m, but its rapidly decreases to the point that you're doing 1 damage per standard ppc at 30m.

The bigger reason that makes HPPCs feel less important is the fact you can fire 3 standard PPCs without ghost heat penalty, and the increase in other pin point alpha options

[Widowmaker1981]

the check engine light, on 24 March 2023 - 05:06 AM, said:

Heavy PPCs seem just outright bad to me unless you have an HSL+ on them so you can run 3 and get 45 pinpoint for things like headcaps. In any other application I would rather run PPCs.

They definitely have uses. 2 HPPC is 1 ton and 1 slot lighter than 3 PPCs. The PPCs do have faster cooldown and scaling min range instead of hard min range, but the HPPCs are more heat efficient and will have better convergence on many mechs (only need 2 clustered energy points). Imo they are quite well balanced (id change the HPPC to scaling min range too) and its chassis dependent which is the right choice.

For example, this cor-7a build that i use works out a lot better with 2 HPPCs clustered next to the cockpit than it would trying to put a 3rd PPC in the right arm. You'd need to find tonnage to armour the arm up and lose a ton of ammo to get the slot, and now need to expose the whole width of the mech to fire instead of being pretty well set up for left peeking.

I think the PPC thats mainly useless without HSL quirking is the LPPC. On the light mechs they are aimed at id much rather take 2 Snubs than 3 LPPC - 30 dmg per shot instead of 16.5. I think HSL cap on LPPC should be 4 as standard..

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 March 2023 - 08:24 AM.