265 replies to this topic

[sosegado]

the check engine light, on 10 March 2023 - 09:20 AM, said:

Why would they need alts? They claim to have players from all tiers present in the Cauldron to provide feedback, do they not?

I don't know how they operate, but even if they did have specific players they ask for feedback from, it would still make sense to create this thread to get a larger sampling of opinions.

the check engine light, on 10 March 2023 - 09:20 AM, said:

As for concerns they would have about how the lower tiers are going about things, I certainly wouldn't expect D A T A to give a whoop. His publically expressed sentiments on changes or the state of various things in the game tend to sound more like tantrums (particularly after the CERLL ghost heat increase) and nearly all of those center on something he himself wants or does not want irrespective of anyone else's stance.

I can't say I know the man from anything but the videos he makes so I can't comment other then to say he appears no different from any other player I've encountered that has personal opinions (strong sometimes) on how he thinks changes need to happen to certain aspects of the game. Some valid, some perhaps not.

[LordNothing]

the cauldron have their own discord, but since i don't use discord as a mater of taste and cybersecurity, and they have little or no forum interaction, it still seems like this big black box cabal doing things under the table.

[Glymbol]

Lets nerf the worst weapon in the game even more. I think at the current state of the game you need more skill to do something useful with LRMs than standing on a hill 1km away from the enemy in a ECM assault shooting ER Larges.

[MrTBSC]

Glymbol, on 11 March 2023 - 06:06 AM, said:

Lets nerf the worst weapon in the game even more. I think at the current state of the game you need more skill to do something useful with LRMs than standing on a hill 1km away from the enemy in a ECM assault shooting ER Larges.

worst weapon imho are streaks ... only really good against lights and to a degree mediums, need the lock on, no dumpfire capability and worse dmg spread than LRMs.. locked LRMs hit the centertorso of a mech more often than streaks do ...

personally even though i don´t run LRM mechs often i do fearly OK with them as mid to longrange plattform going for LoS instead of indirect fire ..

Edited by MrTBSC, 11 March 2023 - 07:11 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

MrTBSC, on 11 March 2023 - 07:11 AM, said:

worst weapon imho are streaks ... only really good against lights and to a degree mediums, need the lock on, no dumpfire capability and worse dmg spread than LRMs.. locked LRMs hit the centertorso of a mech more often than streaks do ...

personally even though i don´t run LRM mechs often i do fearly OK with them as mid to longrange plattform going for LoS instead of indirect fire ..

Streaks used to have a really good role in defending siege in Faction Play... because by wave 4, the enemy team was typically running out of tonnage, and a light rush was common.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 11 March 2023 - 07:22 AM.

[sycocys]

MrTBSC, on 11 March 2023 - 07:11 AM, said:

worst weapon imho are streaks

Streaks are horrible. Would probably be tolerable if they had a dumbfire with wider spread so they at least had some functionality given their higher tonnage.

[JediPanther]

All of you who think IS lrms are SO OP and MUST NERF are idiots. Before I began this long *** post that took an hour to pull the data from the game's mouse-over tool tips lets use three universal numbers before I get to the hard specific numbers. Tell me later how clans don't have a serious advantage over is lrms...Fat Chance.


Universal number 1: Range tree skill adds 15% range.

Universal number 2: Most mechs have a most common quirk of range +10 range hence I specifically used my mechs that have it. Most us us can add 15 % range skill and 10% range quirk to get 25% range total.
Universal number 3: Velocity Skill tree +15% speed.

UAVS: You get one slot for it FREE and it's dirt cheap with auto-fill USE IT!


Mechs used for data:

Jenner IIc-3 max range/velocity skills

Jenner IIc-Fury max range /velocity tree skills

Griffin GRF-1N(P) max range/velocity skills


Many posts about lrms balance are along the lines of "omg so fast too much damage so much range I can't get to cover waah waah must nerf" from people who mostly play the slowest mech class in the game going roughly 40-50kph. So lets compare all that range (lack of) velocity (lol what velocity) and tonnage (oooh **** i should go meta clanker ez win) required to use them against the dreaded IS lrms. Guess what is lrms velocity are on the griffin?

IS lrm indirect: 210 (+52 quirk/skills)
IS lrm DIRECT: 294 (+73 quirk/skills)


Artemis has NO EFFECT on velocity. It does add one ton to the weight of the missile launcher. Tag for both clan and IS is 750m range. IS bap is one and a half tons. Clan bap is one ton. Clan light bap is a puny half ton. IS tag is one ton. Assuming you're using IS and smart enough to use and stack it with bap that is 2.5 tons just to aim your is lrms directly and get a lock. All for that just to fire a weapon with under 300m/s speed unless your mech has quirks which grf does.


You lose 3 tons (tag+bap) for IS just to get your own locks if and only if you take and use the equipment. Yes I rounded up since it makes the math ez for me with my match disability but it is 2.5 tons for the nerds. You could just be a lazy a-hole and try going sensor skills only for locks. Good luck with all the ecm out there. I hate you if this is how you lrm.
Since the meta is er ll,gauss and er ppc lets see how clans works. Including all those fancy numbers above for our 25% range and 15% velocity.

Clan ER PPC
minimal range 0
max 1620m + (405m quirk)= 2,025m
optimal 810m+ (202m quirk)=1,012m
velocity 1650m/s (+247m/s quirk)= 1897 m/s
6 tons no ammo

Clan GAUSS
minimal range 0
max 2050m (+717m quirk)= 2,757m
optimal 810m (+ 283m quirk)=1,093m
velocity 2200m/s (+330 m/s quirk)= 2,530 m/s
12 tons plus ammo

Clan ER lls have no speed so nothing there to compare it to IS lrms.

Hey look. All that velocity is ultra mega super sonic fast compared to IS lrms velocity of only 294 m/s. So clans velocity is 2,236 m/s and 1,603 m/s FASTER. So now we know IS lrms have crap for speed. Whic one is easier to doge I wonder? Range next since they are "long" and all these post always try can claim they can't get to cover.

All IS lrm are limited to a range meager 900m regardless of size. Add on the range number and you get only 1,035m. Some mechs with missile range quirks can get a small number farther but none hit 1,175m.
Well now minus that 1035m we can add that clanker laser in after we find its stats:
Clan ER LL
minimal range 0
max 1620m + 405m=2,025m
optimal 810m+ 202m=1,012m
velocity none
4 tons no ammo

Clans out range IS lrms period. Clan ER PPC has 990m over. Clan er ll has 990m over. Clan Gauss has 1,722m over. So Clans have VELOCITY and RANGE over IS lrm. Maybe IS lrm have some thing over clans to make them such OP must Nerf weapons of fear. Weight! That's it! IS LRMS surely have that over clans!? Well...NO and NO and F. U. N O! But here's the numbers in case you know how to math that out.

is lrm 5 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
minimal range 180m
max 900m/1035 skill tree+225m=
optimal 900m/+225m=
velocity indirect 210+52=
velocity direct 294+73=
2 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
3 tons artemis plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 10 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
minimal range 180m
max 900m(1035m skill tree)+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
5 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
6 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 15 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
max 900m+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
7 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
8 pluss ammo artemis plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 20 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
max 900m (1035m skill tree)+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
10 tons plus ammo Plus 2.5 tons tag/bap
11 tons plus ammo artemis Plus 2.5 tag/bap

[feeWAIVER]

JediPanther, on 11 March 2023 - 09:24 AM, said:

All of you who think IS lrms are SO OP and MUST NERF are idiots. Before I began this long *** post that took an hour to pull the data from the game's mouse-over tool tips lets use three universal numbers before I get to the hard specific numbers. Tell me later how clans don't have a serious advantage over is lrms...Fat Chance.

IS LRMS fire in a tighter burst, so when they do hit, they hit harder.

[sycocys]

Pretty sure DATA is the primary instigator of LRMs are OP, plus Tam who runs in lower tiers where they might work 50% of the time or so.
- Furthering that, my understanding is that DATA is basing his LRM OP argument on running with a group coordinated to support a boat to its potential which is running at least 2 mechs to make one of them useful. It would be pretty hard to classify any weapon as op (clan or is or both variations) if it takes multiple mechs coordinating to make it even work.

[Blood Rose]

feeWAIVER, on 11 March 2023 - 09:59 AM, said:

IS LRMS fire in a tighter burst, so when they do hit, they hit harder.

If they hit. Meanwhile GaussxERPPC and blue lasers dominate every map with no countermeasures.

[LordNothing]

blueshield is a ppc counter and reflective armor would counter lasers. we have neither of these things. if we had these things it would embolden our squirrels to take out those ranged traders. right now the only think keeping them back is how easy it is to leg a squirrel with 4 or 5 erlls. its probibly a better and more fun alternative to the nerfed minrange idea ive been kicking around.

i think blueshield would just be an extra armor pool for ppc hits, and once it runs out the unit crits out and you cant use it anymore. only effects ppcs other weapons go right though. i dont think the way it works in tt would translate well. it runs for 6 turns and then has a chance of failing after that progressively getting worse each roll. so treating it as an armor poll is close to what tt is doing. also its 3 tons and takes up a slot in every component except the head, so 7 crits. it would need to be an upgrade or perhaps just make it 0.5t and it only protects the component its installed it and can stop 60-90 hitpoints before it crits, and half the damage still gets through. it would be a very good addition if we also get capped ppcs. reflective armor would just be a damage reducer for lasers.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 March 2023 - 12:02 PM.

[MrTBSC]

Curccu, on 08 March 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

Is someone else than data QQing about lurms? I have seen mostly MG(lights are OP... including datas MG lights are OP) and snipy assault QQs past half a Year or so.

such threads do pop up every once in while ...
personaly i have little issue with lrm boats or MG lights ...
to me personally at the moment full on ERLL, ER PPC and gaussboats on maps like frozen city are more irritating as CQC or midrangemech as it gets difficult to close distance ... people simply want to be able to slug it out with reckless abandon .. but that´s just not how the game works

[MrTBSC]

LordNothing, on 11 March 2023 - 11:25 AM, said:

blueshield is a ppc counter and reflective armor would counter lasers. we have neither of these things. if we had these things it would embolden our squirrels to take out those ranged traders. right now the only think keeping them back is how easy it is to leg a squirrel with 4 or 5 erlls. its probibly a better and more fun alternative to the nerfed minrange idea ive been kicking around.

i think blueshield would just be an extra armor pool for ppc hits, and once it runs out the unit crits out and you cant use it anymore. only effects ppcs other weapons go right though. i dont think the way it works in tt would translate well. it runs for 6 turns and then has a chance of failing after that progressively getting worse each roll. so treating it as an armor poll is close to what tt is doing. also its 3 tons and takes up a slot in every component except the head, so 7 crits. it would need to be an upgrade or perhaps just make it 0.5t and it only protects the component its installed it and can stop 60-90 hitpoints before it crits, and half the damage still gets through. it would be a very good addition if we also get capped ppcs. reflective armor would just be a damage reducer for lasers.

i think rather than reactive or reflektiv armor (while i wouldn be against them as options) the available option especialy for IS should be hardened armor and supercharger .. i would even say to open up more mechs to be able to equip masc ... even though the latter may benefit longrange players aswell
... the problem is otherwise the builds are too dependant on how the maps are setup (and there are defintively maps that lack the cover neccesary to close the distance to the enemy) allong with what team you are thrown into to be willing enough for a concentrated push..

Blood Rose, on 11 March 2023 - 11:15 AM, said:

If they hit. Meanwhile GaussxERPPC and blue lasers dominate every map with no countermeasures.

the counter to that is cover and patience ... the latter of which barely anyone has in this game ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 11 March 2023 - 12:50 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

you know of all the "duh, LRM bad, ban LRM" threads i have seen pop up of the years i have to say that this one has had far less of the general hate and stupid arguments than most. i would like to thank everyone who has give constructive arguments (whether i agree with them or not). its nice to see some actual discussion and positive ideas for once around here. it has been very refreshing to see ideas on how to properly balance the weapon system instead of the usual nerf hammer cries (oddly enough it always seems to be some T1 meta try hard cry baby that likely got killed by lurms and now wants them banned because they claim "no skill")

now if only the powers that be would listen to someone other than the meta try hards we might get some positive change.

(Hell i like the idea of gettin rid of convergence on all non locking torso mounted weapons. that would go a long way to curbing the high pinpoint alphas we have to deal with today without nerfing any weapon system itself. you want that high pinpoint that risk putting all your weapons in arms that can be shot off more easily. honestly it makes sense when you think about it how are these hard mounted weapons able to fire anywhere other than dead forward without complicated and easily damaged mechanisms and the room for the weapon to move in the housing. but this is all a tangent that is best put in another thread.)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 11 March 2023 - 01:24 PM.

[Blood Rose]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 March 2023 - 01:15 PM, said:

(Hell i like the idea of gettin rid of convergence on all non locking torso mounted weapons. that would go a long way to curbing the high pinpoint alphas we have to deal with today without nerfing any weapon system itself. you want that high pinpoint that risk putting all your weapons in arms that can be shot off more easily. honestly it makes sense when you think about it how are these hard mounted weapons able to fire anywhere other than dead forward without complicated and easily damaged mechanisms and the room for the weapon to move in the housing. but this is all a tangent that is best put in another thread.)

Lorewise, the torso weapons are not hardlocked but instead have gimbals and servos that allow them to adjust convergence.
What we need, and what I have been asking for for years, is to bring back timed convergence from closed beta. The heavier the weapon the longer it takes to adjust. You want your ERLL/Gauss/PPC sniper boat? Well sure, but you have to stand there and wait for those weapons to converge at the point you are aiming at or risk them not hitting where you want, and the further they have to adjust the longer it takes. EG, adjusting from 270 to 300 metres is fast. From 270 to 800 takes longer, and vice versa.
Targetting computers reduce this time, at the cost of the extra tonnage - they now follow TT rules and weigh more/take up more space the more weapons you have running through them.
Suddenly pinpoint sniping is a lot harder, you have to take time to aim instead of point and clicking. Brawling now has its own advantages as at short range the time matters less. Mechs last a lot longer too.
One change, and it fixes everything from the sniper dominance to the low mech survival time. All that needs to happen then is an LRM buff, and your good.

[LordNothing]

actuation time went out when hsr came in. no actuator can rotate a 15 ton weapon instantly. but this was removed for technical reasons. it also breaks a lot of otherwise fun mechanics which are all but absent in the game. but the other side of it is you kind of need hsr otherwise you will be aiming for things that the server thinks is elsewhere. lack of actuation time and no noise sources (snipers have to time their shot to their heartbeat and breathing, tanks need complex control systems and even then firing on the go reduces accuracy) means you get a lot of free precision that would not happen in a more realism oriented game, and for some this has turned the game into an aiming simulator.

[Clint Taurus]

Der Geisterbaer, on 04 March 2023 - 11:25 AM, said:

...Nothing in the "concept of PvP" is ever negated by weapons that require no aim, because "aim" simply isn't an inherent trait of the "concept of PvP". But guess what: Indirect fire weapons that lock onto targets but aren't true fire and forget weapons and are called LRMs are an inherent premise of the fictional universe this game is based upon.

Watch enough of DATA's videos and it's clear what his motivation is with respect to "aim". DATA prefers that lock-on weapons be nerfed into general uselessness, because he feels that he has an advantage over other players when it comes to "aiming". DATA says so in his videoes that he uses a high end mouse (which has on the fly adjustable dpi and macro programming). The kind of mouse a small fraction of the player base uses, and even fewer of whom use it to the extent that players like DATA do. I have the same mouse, but I don't use any of the extra features, which I consider exploitative. Put that thing on the lowest DPI and you pick components with ease. It's an unfair advantage over those who don't have it, so I don't use it. Just like how I never run LRMs in a coordinated group trolling the pug queue, because that's a **** move.

Nobody forces certain players to use every trick, exploit, min/max advantage they can find, and then go drop with casual pugs who are nowhere near the same skill level, seal club them and then post a video declaring that whatever mech or weapon that was used for the clubbing is a "cancer" on the game.

The only cancer I see in this game are the comp/streamer types seal clubbing pugs and then complaining that the pugs don't like it. I guess the disrespect for the rest of the player base will continue by the game's seal clubbers until morale improves.

Edited by Clint Taurus, 11 March 2023 - 08:59 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i consider anything outside of direct game mechanics cheating. a high end mouse is one thing but using macros is cheating in my personal opinion. (then again due to my low income and other factors i just use a cheap Logitech keyboard and mouse)

as for the gimbals in Lore yeah i know they exist (though often the mechs are so old or in ill repair that these systems don't always function properly). main reason i just said to straight up eliminate torso convergence is that i figure it would be easier on the programing side to implement.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 12 March 2023 - 05:45 AM.

[sycocys]

Clint Taurus, on 11 March 2023 - 08:50 PM, said:

The only cancer I see in this game are the comp/streamer types seal clubbing pugs and then complaining that the pugs don't like it. I guess the disrespect for the rest of the player base will continue by the game's seal clubbers until morale improves.

I can for the most part deal with the the comp players and being stuck in their boring matches as my tier xp grinds up - what is ****** is that PGI lets them create alts and farm the low tier players and ruin the game for them. - That should be a perma ban for all their accounts and disqualifier for their teams/units in comp play in my opinion.

[Vsolid]

Relatively newer player here, and a slight necro (4 days isnt that bad looking at these forums I guess).

The matches I find LRMs most frustrating to deal with (IE there are like 4-5 LRMboats on the enemy team) often end in a victory for my team despite feeling like im losing the entire time. They dont seem very good and I never run them. Infact I stripped them out of my Archer and replaced them with MRMs (my beloved) once I realized they're kind of a pain to use without a dedicated support group for it, and they're better if you have direct line of sight anyways.
The area denial / psychological aspect of them seems really strong.
"Oh im locked, I cant move from cover right now".
BUT, suppressive fire doesnt give me Cbills, and a DWF-C with ERLLs basically has the same psychological effect.