234 replies to this topic

[Jarok van Sagittaron]

Rhaelcan, on 17 March 2023 - 04:43 PM, said:

No quirk and hardpoint showcase of the legendary mechs? You should show them, I want to know what I am buying.

I'm pretty sure the Moonwalker is obvious equipped with 3 UAC/5 (one in each arm, one in RT), 3UAC/2 (one in each arm, one in CT) and a ERPPC in the left torso. I can only speculate about the Fafnir...

[Bud Crue]

But, but...I liked SRM brawling in my Goldenboy.

And that Linebacker quirk...could you guys please explain how such a small change comes to pass? Was there like actual debate along the lines of:
- " Oh lets not forget that awful Linebacker-B RA, it needs something. How about a 5% laser cooldown?"
- "No no, 5% would make that RA OP, in fact anything more than a 1% change is unthinkable!"
- "We must try and come up with a reasoned compromise on that Linebacker-B right arm, else wise chaos will ensue!"
- "I will say once again that the data suggests only 3.726% is reasonable!!!"
- "Clearly your understanding of statistical analysis is flawed! Anything more that 2.5% will result in nothing but Linebacker-B right arms being equipped across the board; won't anyone else think of the other variants' arms!!
- etc.


I'm just really curious (legitimately so) about what goes on to get you guys to make such a seemingly inconsequential change (like, seriously, why not 5% or any other value here)?

Edited by Bud Crue, 18 March 2023 - 04:57 AM.

[dario03]

Bud Crue, on 18 March 2023 - 04:38 AM, said:

But, but...I liked SRM brawling in my Goldenboy.

And that Linebacker quirk...could you guys please explain how such a small change comes to pass? Was there like actual debate along the lines of:
- " Oh lets not forget that awful Linebacker-B RA, it needs something. How about a 5% laser cooldown?"
- "No no, 5% would make that RA OP, in fact anything more than a 1% change is unthinkable!"
- "We must try and come up with a reasoned compromise on that Linebacker-B right arm, else wise chaos will ensue!"
- "I will say once again that the data suggests only 3.726% is reasonable!!!"
- "Clearly your understanding of statistical analysis is flawed! Anything more that 2.5% will result in nothing but Linebacker-B right arms being equipped across the board; won't anyone else think of the other variants' arms!!
- etc.


I'm just really curious (legitimately so) about what goes on to get you guys to make such a seemingly inconsequential change (like, seriously, why not 5% or any other value here)?

Linebacker -B RA laser cooldown is 2.5% because there are two other arms with the same hardpoints and armor quirks but also already had that 2.5% quirk so they were just flat better. So the -B was just given this to match them. More of a give that pod a reason to be taken, than a buff to the mech.
Maybe a different quirk for variety would be better but thats the reason the laser cooldown was 2.5%

[Bud Crue]

dario03, on 18 March 2023 - 05:25 AM, said:

Linebacker -B RA laser cooldown is 2.5% because there are two other arms with the same hardpoints and armor quirks but also already had that 2.5% quirk so they were just flat better. So the -B was just given this to match them. More of a give that pod a reason to be taken, than a buff to the mech.
Maybe a different quirk for variety would be better but thats the reason the laser cooldown was 2.5%

So the reasoning isn't based on perceived performance need or data driven analysis, but rather: the others have 2.5% so lets give em all 2.5% for the sake of consistency? That makes sense, but is far less interesting than what I had been hoping/expecting.

Edited by Bud Crue, 18 March 2023 - 06:04 AM.

[Dyex]

Divkrd, on 18 March 2023 - 03:21 AM, said:

Dire doesn't need buff, it's the most represented mech arcoss all tiers for a reason. But noooo, they nerf mechs anyone barely plays, and buff the most used mech in the game. You know why? Because they farm noobs with Dires, why would they nerf something they use all the time, right?

Think it's pretty obvious who on the cauldron wanted these changes.
Don't think you can convince me it was "balance" to take the DWF-W centre torso which has 2 energy hard points, needed more armor, whopping +10% projectile velocity (not a SO8 bonus) more and a heat bonus too.

This is clearly to buff a pet build they use a lot, the five ER Large lasers two Gauss Rifle build.
To move anther laser off the RA to CT incase the right torso is compromised.
As I said, this is not balance its GROOMING!

Edited by Dyex, 18 March 2023 - 09:58 AM.

[Rhaelcan]

Jarok van Sagittaron, on 18 March 2023 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the Moonwalker is obvious equipped with 3 UAC/5 (one in each arm, one in RT), 3UAC/2 (one in each arm, one in CT) and a ERPPC in the left torso. I can only speculate about the Fafnir...

I didn't mean builds, since we already know what they have. I meant hardpoints, since cauldron stated moonwalker may also have missles. Moonwalker is 6 uac2 and erppc, and fafnir is 8 machine guns stock with a standard 400 engine and masc.

[Matt Newman]

More info in the Patch notes with the in-game Loadout and Quirk Screenshots.
Also the Fafnir Hit box changes that Cauldron requested have been done.

[Mokkor]

Do you have any place in your plans for optimization/QoL improvements? I know for sure Cauldron has some optimization fixes in mind.

[GargoyleVine]

new logo looks sweet, Atlas head is a nice touch, good job

Edited by GargoyleVine, 18 March 2023 - 11:12 AM.

[Steel Shanks]

Gods be good... Ok...

How bout adding Jump Jets to a Kintaro Chassis? Jump Jets on a Kintaro is pretty great, as I have done it in other games. It's a much better option than the terrible choices ye made for Quirks... Can't wait to see One Kintaro out there in 20 Matches played...

Legendary/Legendary Mechs are incredibly stupid... But the bullet's already left the gun, so I'll wait and see that Melt Down along the road... Battle Pass is terrible too... But PGI doesn't seem to really care about terrible Ideas, they thrive on them...

Dire Whale buffs are friggin' hilarious... God do I hate the Cauldron... I generally believe this game was better before they came into existence... I suspect these TERRIBLE Legendary builds are their doing too...

People keep asking Me, "Why do You still play MWO?" I used to be able to easily defend My choice... Now... Now I'm starting to wonder Myself... Legendary, like Solaris, is a terrible Idea, with Terrible Mechs... Cauldron does arbitrary nonsense, and PGI goes with it... Hey, Cauldron, the Kintaro 19 was meant to be a Narc Machine... SLDF Built For... You know, like in the LORE no one cares about... I'm spending less and less time in this game... Sad times for Mechwarrior...

[Kai Lui]

any hope of undoing the pointless arbitrary "rescale" from a few years back that turned things like griffens into mechs bigger then Warhammer with haft the armor and dps? made the locast bigger then a jenner ect. a lot of other REALY BAD IDEAS implemented there i have been wishing to vanished.,

[catgirl]

Thank you Krazz for the sick map! I'm excited for my purple mechs to be hidden in plain sight
I rarely play Assaults, but these Legendary packs will be instant purchases. I love new content!

tiny request: hoping for a cool title like 'Legendary'

[Kodan Black]

Lockheed_, on 18 March 2023 - 12:29 PM, said:

The legendary mechs are pretty disappointing. They are good no question there, but I was expecting much much more when it comes to making them unique and worthy of the title legendary. I'd rather have no hardpoint inflation and some really unique quirks and not just that backwards speed on the MKII.

Any worries of pay to win are gone at least. Moonwalker I’ll buy, but that Fafnir feels too gimmicky.

[Dyex]

the check engine light, on 18 March 2023 - 12:37 PM, said:

I keep telling myself it's just an organic outgrowth of "poor hitboxes/mounts which can't be fixed" and then I see the Fafnir hitboxes getting tweaked. I'm having a harder and harder time believing this isn't "herd the stupids toward the right choices, which are our choices".

Serious question - if you DOUBLED the quirk values on every single Cicada, do you think they would overperform relative to other Mediums? Could you ever see a situation where a new and oppressive Cicada meta arises? Or, lets go down the list, s/Cicada/Vindicator? s/Cicada/Jenner? What would it take for that to happen? I can't foresee it but I'm not as aware of things as some others.

They can adjust the hitbox for the Fafnir all they want, just shoot it in the metal nuts to hit CT. It's not like that things got any agility to advoid that situation much.

And I feel indifferent about the Civada/Jenner buffs, might be a bit over quirked now but blame the artificial inflation of easy pinpoint alpha little worry of heat management for that.
Maybe they CT armor buff not needed if we quit buffing other unnecessary damage buffs.

Edited by Dyex, 18 March 2023 - 01:08 PM.

[Mighty Spike]

Rebrand new toys maps etc.. for the few active Players left?Makes totaly sense. Not a single Word on how to bring and keep new Players here.
Even a Quantum Computer cant make a proper MM with how many active? 200.300?
As long Newbys wil die in Lurmspam in 10 seconds in the active combat Zone with the 15th "incomming missile warning" in their ears will nothing change or help.
Game tab is outdated like the rest too.Newbys have to get important infos by their own together like shoot down the UAV for surviving a bit longer in the Combat Zone.
.The most Newbys even dont know that they can choose every Mech from store,change the Loadout without paying anything and visit Testing grounds directly from store mech lab. with the changed loadout.
That are infos wich are important for newbys and wich they should get right at start.Anything that helps to start easier and less annoyed is good.
Start to make it more newby friendly because we need nothing more then fresh Blood
How many Money you can make with a few hundred active Players? Seriously not enough. Wonder that this magic cauldron thingy says nothing to PGI regarding actions to bring more New Players here. There´s no future with just a few hundred left active Players.

[Heavy Money]

Fafnir with its stock loadout is a gimmick. But its going to be great with other loadouts. AC5's, LB10X, etc.

[Heavy Money]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 March 2023 - 02:43 AM, said:

~hmm~
Something in there doesn't quite add up for me. In order to actually "encourage" LRM spam at "low level play" (I guess you mean in the lower tiers but somehow went with a potentially pejorative choice of words)

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess it is insulting to notice that the meta works differently at different levels of play. What euphemism would make you feel better?

Yes, they want scouting to actually matter which is why Target Spotted got nerfed, and they are attempting to tone NARC down a bit too.

Its really not complicated. NARC is a bad mechanic because it replaces an entire role (which is already on shaky grounds) with a button click now and then. Low level players dislike it as part of their dislike for LRM rain, and high level players who aren't concerned with LRM rain still dislike it for invalidating the scout role. NARC without duration quirks still lasts a long time. Its not been killed off or anything.

Balance discussions take place on these forums, and also in the Cauldron's public discord server, and on reddit, and all sorts of places. You can go give them your opinion and ask them their reasoning. Its not a black box. Its there for anyone who feels like participating.

[Far Reach]

Uhhuh. Uhuh. Yeahp.
Hard pass.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess it is insulting to notice that the meta works differently at different levels of play.

Let's just say that you quite obviously failed at reading comprehension there despite quoting the relevant parts.
Let me return your passive agressive "counter" with: Sorry, I guess it's insulting to remark that a prejorative choice of words can and will create exactly the response you got and that you're now committing the next fallacy of a strawman fallacy because none of what you quoted or anything thereafter said anything about "the meta" working different for different "levels of play".
So ...

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

What euphemism would make you feel better?

... there's no need for "euphemisms" and if you actually cared enough to read what you quoted you would have found a wording that has less potential of polarization. Add to that that you're obviously focussing on a side note instead of the actual comment and we're so knee deep in fallacy territory that this is bound to go nowhere productive.

Side note: I'd actually "feel better" if you managed to provide answers to what I actually asked you.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yes, they want scouting to actually matter which is why Target Spotted got nerfed, and they are attempting to tone NARC down a bit too.

Again,

• Who is "they"?
  
• How many are "they"?
  
• Why would "their" interests be more important than those of others?
  
• Where are your verifiable numbers on any of that?
  
• How exactly do your claims about the "low levels" pan out with regards to "encouraging LRM spam" (under the questionable stipulation that NARC support is consistantly available and present)?

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Its really not complicated.

Making claims without actual prove and / or logical connection is indeed "not complicated". So is the dismissal of any such claims.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

NARC is a bad mechanic because it replaces an entire role (which is already on shaky grounds) with a button click now and then.

Which seems to be the entire point of NARC both within the game universe's lore as well as any real world variation of that. Oh, and isn't NARC used by mechs that fulfill exactly that role you're speaking of?
Side note: your justification after "because" still doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that "NARC is a bad mechanic". You'll have to actually "reason" better there.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Low level players dislike it as part of their dislike for LRM rain,

Do they now? Again, show verifiable numbers on that ... where are those voices from "the wider community" that make NARC out to be a problem that has to be adressed?

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

and high level players who aren't concerned with LRM rain still dislike it for invalidating the scout role.

Same question(s) here along with the request to make a better argument about why NARC invalidates "the scout role" when considering that typical NARC usage actually comes from mechs that thereby fulfill a scouting role.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

NARC without duration quirks still lasts a long time. Its not been killed off or anything.

Since nobody seems to have claimed that the change "kills" NARC, we're seeing yet another strawman argument.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Balance discussions take place on these forums,

So it should be possible to provide "numerous" threads where NARC as a "bad mechanic" takes center stage in "the wider community", shouldn't it?
Or show the same ...

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

and also in the Cauldron's public discord server,

... for that and ...

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

and on reddit,

... that or even ...

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

and all sorts of places.

... that. Remember: You made the claim, so it's your onus to provide the "proof" not mine or that of others to get them by themselves.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

You can go give them your opinion and ask them their reasoning.

I would say that I gave an opinion in direct response to the one person that I'm currently aware of making very particular claims and that person doesn't seem to be able and / or willing to actually back up certain aspects of their claims but instead reacts with fallacies, passive aggressiveness / condescending commentary.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Its not a black box.

For anyone not participating on thrid party sites it actually is a "black box" and will remain one until people making claims here on this first party board actually bother to provide proof for their particular claims.

Heavy Money, on 18 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

Its there for anyone who feels like participating.

And nobody should have to actually feel "like participating" in off-site discussions when engaging with claims being made here on this site.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 March 2023 - 09:24 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 March 2023 - 03:53 PM, said:

-snip-

Bruh, if I wanted to waste hours with reddit tier pseudo-rationalist argumentation I'd be on reddit. I'm not reading all that. And I'm not buying your false premise that "low level play" is pejorative. It is objective to the issue at hand. How about you prove to me that it is and maybe I'll respond to another one of your pseudointellectualisms.

I have informed you about something. Its not my job to provide a scientific proof. If you want to know more about the Cauldron and their process go join their Discord and just ask.