64 replies to this topic

[RockmachinE]

Ihlrath, on 24 March 2023 - 09:28 PM, said:

Hasn't anyone told this guy that we're not allowed to criticize anything the Cauldron does? They are clearly much smarter than the rest of us and have a ton of data to back up all their changes... even though we've never been shown this data... they'd never skew the game to their prefered long range, high alpha, pin point damage style.... not at all. Never. Clearly that's not what we're seeing in 99% of matches the entire community is just making that up......

Oh there's D A T A to back up the Cauldron changes. Hahaha, I'm so funny.

This thread is a microcosm of the greater picture. Some people love the changes because it suits them. Some people don't because they don't like the play style it fosters.

The game has not been balanced, just skewed in one direction.

The fact remains the Cauldron shaped the game to their liking, bias and playstyle and they continue to do it unabated. Unfortunately they have the influence to do so. I'd shut it down, sadly not going to happen, but it needs to be pointed out.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 25 March 2023 - 01:30 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Louis Brofist, on 25 March 2023 - 01:25 AM, said:

Oh there's D A T A to back up the Cauldron changes. Hahaha, I'm so funny.

This thread is a microcosm of the greater picture. Some people love the changes because it suits them. Some people don't because they don't like the play style it fosters.

The game has not been balanced, just skewed in one direction.

The fact remains the Cauldron shaped the game to their liking, bias and playstyle and they continue to do it unabated. Unfortunately they have the influence to do so. I'd shut it down, sadly not going to happen, but it needs to be pointed out.

I'm still not sure what is that they are shaping the game at you're talking about. Having the most variety in terms of viable mechs and weapons game ever had? Because I don't see that ERLL fiesta in quickplay you're talking about.

[RickySpanish]

denAirwalkerrr, on 25 March 2023 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'm still not sure what is that they are shaping the game at you're talking about. Having the most variety in terms of viable mechs and weapons game ever had? Because I don't see that ERLL fiesta in quickplay you're talking about.

It happens at particular times of day, but it is not constant. It's as if there are many viable forms of play and people's preference dictates what one sees in game. Gosh, I wonder if that's because a group of people spent a long *** time balancing the game? Nah. I guess what these elitists really wanted was to skew the game! ... In every direction!

[RockmachinE]

denAirwalkerrr, on 25 March 2023 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'm still not sure what is that they are shaping the game at you're talking about. Having the most variety in terms of viable mechs and weapons game ever had? Because I don't see that ERLL fiesta in quickplay you're talking about.

When did I say anything about ERLLs? Youre replying to the wrong person.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Louis Brofist, on 25 March 2023 - 09:30 AM, said:

When did I say anything about ERLLs? Youre replying to the wrong person.

Ok then explain yourself. What exactly you mean by "they are balancing the game to fit thier playstyle". In 99% of cases it's complains about either OP lights/ERLL/GPPC/lasvom.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 25 March 2023 - 09:55 AM.

[SFC174]

Won't comment on specific playstyles. Won't comment on motivations. But if we're going to ascribe population changes to in game balancing decisions (and yes, I agree Chris' work was horrible, but being better than Chris doesn't make something good, know what I mean?), then you need to assess Cauldron work the same way.

First Cauldron weapons balance pass dropped 4/21 - mid month. Population was 24,525 at that time. Today it's 16,964. 30% drop is not insignificant. To look at more closely coupled effects, from 5/21 to 9/21 population dropped 25%. From the looks of it, Cauldron changes shaved off about 25% of the playerbase and it hasn't recovered.

It's my personal opinion that the growth in population up to the Cauldron changes was based on the hope and promise that players would do a better job than Chris did. I think the Cauldron wasn't as bad as Chris, but that's a low bar. And a lot of players apparently didn't get what they hoped for either. IMO.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

Louis Brofist, on 24 March 2023 - 09:35 AM, said:

MWO was on the brink of death just before corona. The reason the game made a comeback was COVID and lockdowns which gave people the time to get into all kinds of gaming. This gave the game a new fresh playerbase injection and as a result a greater momentum.

The resurgence of MWO predates the Gulag changes which actually drove longer term players away.

Yup.

[crazytimes]

At least there is some kind of change. I don't really care if the change doesn't always personally suit me, change is a form of progress unto itself, and progress is one of the things that keeps enough players coming back to form interesting matches.

[RockmachinE]

denAirwalkerrr, on 25 March 2023 - 09:55 AM, said:

Ok then explain yourself. What exactly you mean by "they are balancing the game to fit thier playstyle". In 99% of cases it's complains about either OP lights/ERLL/GPPC/lasvom.

I am describing public play meta around T1 level. The comp scene is probably different, it represents a small percentage of the playerbase and has completely different dynamics so it's not relevant to this debate.

The meta favors stand offish long to very long range combat with emphasis on PPC/Beam boating. Brawlers, short to medium range builds, the associated weapons systems and playstyles have become obsolete and are at a significant disadvantage.

All of the following weapon systems have been on the decline and have become either less common, underused or completely obsolete after the cauldron changes. All missile weapons, ATMs, MRMs, LRMs, SRMs.

Any short range weapons are basically underused because of the meta. HGAUSS is rare, LB20X is less common even AC20s which used to be a staple of MWO are now less common, LB10X (unless 4x boated) are virtually never seen. MPLAS clan or IS are seeing significantly less use compared to before and become less common.

This represents a large percentage of weapons in MWO.

I am not saying these don't exist or are never used, I'm also not saying you can't do well in those if you really want to make it work, but all of the aforementioned weapons have been either on the decline or not used nearly as much as they used to and using them you will be at a disadvantage.

Overall a greater percentage of weapons used to be viable before the Cauldron changes. If anything the changes have made the game less balanced and more skewed in terms of weapons.

[Novakaine]

Heavy Money, on 24 March 2023 - 03:43 PM, said:

IS ERLL are shorter range, but many of the mechs that are best with them have quirks. Stalker, Battlemaster, Zeus, and many more are perfectly competitive with cERLL. Stalker remains the best ERLL boat.

Heh in this meta range is all that really matters.

[MarcinT1981]

This is my first post here so hello everyone.
I returned to Mwo three months ago after more than two years off. I will add that as a Tier 1 (after the psr changes I pushed the first to the max but then I didn't play anymore), after returning I was so good that I fell to half of Tier 2. I mean, the whole balance that the cauldron did I got right away, I didn't see point-by-point changes.I think the game is much, much better now. Who ever used SNPPC ... nobody. This meta with mpl was running everywhere. Atm rounds would kill a mech for two shots. 75% of the mechs were useless.Atlas... the most recognizable mech from battletech was completely crap (ok now it's also not op but somehow it can work). I don't think anyone remembers what the really good players were doing back then. DATA in Mist Lynx, MW2 Annihilator in Viper. Now these mechs (not players ) are at least a little nerfed.Now such a poor Annihilator in QP can at least make it to the battlefield. It used to be 50/50 with mist lynxes and piranhas getting him. So while I'm at the voice, I wanted to thank you for the better balance. Well done CAULDRON.
P.S.. One thing hasn't changed ..... The one known to everyone in FP still sucks

[VeeOt Dragon]

there have been a few weapons that the Cauldron made more viable (LPPC, SNPPC were almost never seen at all before Couldron changes) but missile weapons (especially LRM) have taken a hit. like most things in life they have been both good and bad.

the biggest problem is the pinpoint long range meta. there is a way to fix it but one that would make the cryhards scream. (getting rid of instant convergence).

i honestly love my MRMs and LRMs as well as other mid range weapon systems. i rarely use ERLLs let alone clan ones (i hardly ever play clan mechs if at all) i also don't really like pure short range builds. then again i am an oddball it seems since i actually like mixed builds (LRMs with MLs, LPPC with SRM (or even MGs in one case), MRM, AC/LBX10 and MLs for backup. all kinds of things). i honestly think if there was some incentive towards mixed builds over boating we would have a better game overall but i have no idea how you could do it in a way that wouldn't just make a mess of eveerrything

[Saved By The Bell]

To my opinion, Cauldron made some changes, which changed game in better way, esp. mech lab, skills. (I prefer old HPG map though). The game style didn't change so much, esp. on tier 5-3.

(I am on journey with only old notePC).

[denAirwalkerrr]

Louis Brofist, on 25 March 2023 - 10:49 PM, said:

Overall a greater percentage of weapons used to be viable before the Cauldron changes. If anything the changes have made the game less balanced and more skewed in terms of weapons.

You realise that pre-cauldron meta was literally nothing but IS MPL spam on IS lights/mediums, clan laservomit, ERLL spam and UACs on heavies/assaults with following list of weapons being completely useless:

• IS

• AC5
  
• AC20 (cuz velocity was dogshit and you always took LBX20)
  
• Gauss Rifle
  
• HMG
  
• LBX2/5 (spread was buffed since then)
  
• LGR (******* meme with lore damage value)
  
• LMG
  
• RAC5 (was steaming pile of hot **** thet you never took over UAC5+10)
  
• ERPPC (was too hot to use oin anything that didn't have -10%+ heat quircks)
  
• ERSL
  
• SL (cuz even if mechs could boat them you always took MPLs instead even if you had enough speed to close the gap)
  
• HPPC (absolutely miserable cooldown and heat)
  
• LL (cuz LPL was mathematically better)
  
• LPPC (another absolutely worthless weapon that noone ever used)
  
• PPC (lol min range)
  
• SPL (because MPL was OP for over two years)
  
• SNPPC (same as LPPC)
  
• MRM 10/20 (due toi taking same time as MRM40 to fire whole salvo, was fixed by cauldron)

• CLAN

• literally all ACs because literally 0 dowside in taking UACs
  
• HMG
  
• LMG
  
• LBX2/5 (same as IS)
  
• ERSL
  
• SPL (lol said Chris lmao 6 to 4 damage nerf with 0 compensation so you never saw this weapon on a single mech for about 3 years)
  
• HML/HSL (absolutely 0 reason to take over ER lasers due to lore values that were never touched until cauldron)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Bonus: remember when one LAMS could shut down your mech within seconds of being active?

So ye sit there and be either ignorant or intellectually dishonest like none of these issues were adressed and how there were more variety 3 years ago because you just want to be pissy about how you think there is less brawl (wrong) and LRMs (cry about it) now.

And yeah ATMs, LRMs and SSRMs should be the most garbage weapons in the game unless certain conditions of their use are met. Aka short distance hillpoking for ATMs, NARC+TAG spotting for LRMs with enemies not having cover nearby and low skill light deterrend for people who can't hit them with regular weapons.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 March 2023 - 03:15 AM.

[RockmachinE]

denAirwalkerrr, on 26 March 2023 - 03:06 AM, said:

You realise that pre-cauldron meta was literally nothing but IS MPL spam on IS lights/mediums, clan laservomit, ERLL spam and UACs on heavies/assaults with following list of weapons being completely useless:

The list is not accurate at all. A good chunk of these weapons are STILL useless and you never see them out in the real world. Some of the stuff on the list was used constantly. I could go down the list and comment individually, but its not worth it. You're clearly heavily biased so it makes no sense.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your position, further discussion is not necessary.

You keep commenting about intellectual dishonesty... its hilarious. Its an online forum for a game with robots.

[Bud Crue]

Louis Brofist, on 25 March 2023 - 10:49 PM, said:

Overall a greater percentage of weapons used to be viable before the Cauldron changes. If anything the changes have made the game less balanced and more skewed in terms of weapons.

Most of what you wrote above I agree with, but not this last part. In my view, there is way more viable weapons choices, on most mechs, than there has ever been. In my games, the long range meta is as much a consequence of the maps that get voted for as it is an issue of what the Cauldron has buffed (or not buffed...denAirwalker speaks of the old days of MPL spam, and now I rarely see any MPL being run, Id like to see MPL get a very slight heat reduction and/or cooldown buff to bring them back to par). I have no idea how much influence they have on the map design, but if 80% of the time (obviously this is a guess) I am getting a map that favors long range trading, and only 20% of the time getting a map that gives me a better than even shot of getting into brawl range successfully, I am foolish to take a brawler build most of the time. That's just the reality of most of my gaming sessions these days, and I don't much care for the monotony of it.

I have been very reluctant to stop running my favorite brawlers and mid-range traders, but with the maps that get voted for I feel like the shortest range weapons that I can run while still having a reasonable chance to trade are large lasers and even then I feel it is silly not to just run ERLL boats and their ilk (I do try and run ERPPC and L Gauss/Gauss more as well, but with my aim...those choices remain less than optimal, but obviously not for others, given how often I am being hit by them within 30 seconds of leaving spawn on maps like Tourmaline, Caustic, Grim, Emerald, River, Frozen city, Canyon, even Rubelite and Mining) or at least something that can do some damage at 700 meters or better.

Anyway, my point is that in my view it is the maps (and the map changes in the last couple of years) that are driving me to take longer range builds, more than any perceived buffs to such weapons over how they may have performed historically.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Louis Brofist, on 26 March 2023 - 03:34 AM, said:

The list is not accurate at all. A good chunk of these weapons are STILL useless and you never see them out in the real world. Some of the stuff on the list was used constantly. I could go down the list and comment individually, but its not worth it. You're clearly heavily biased so it makes no sense

Yeah keep telling that to yourself bro because you know you're lying about that and are too afraid to actually talk about how much more weapons are used now then before.

[Ignatius Audene]

Duke Falcon, on 24 March 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

Sorry. I use the long, complex senteces of old hungarian involuntarily even in english. Really need to learn how to apply shorter sentences...


It were about the tons of dumb topics lately started by "name and shame policy hidden this content for your own sake" asking nerf this nerf that because they play exclusively LLazor-boat Assaults n dropping with a group of 11 to cry lights are OP...
The usual and casual what a day of MWO forum could provide...
At the first place you are right.
Lately I am less tolerant because chemo usually not make people happy. Then all I read here are above mentioned topics, patches full of content better worked upon a few more months (NEW MAP!)...
Then dumbos in the game, you see... The one you smash dumb-fired lurms in a match and in the next match he continously criticise you as your teammate despite he already died and achieved nothing...
I have a headset but luckily have no mic! Otherwise sometimes I would react to them such a manner they never dreamed possible...
Add these cumulative effects together and voila! Wonder I went a bit cryhard? Not even!
But as I started to react to you: You are right. Maybe I were a bit more offensive when written my post. Happens time to time. But at least I am able to admit it and able to apologise.
And that is far more than some "posters" here ever done...


I were not present when they started. I noted they may accomplished some good things. Sure they did. But lately they tilt and tweak the game more and more into a grim direction. I love Mechwarrior games, I love BattleTech... But MWO went far away from both and that would not help it even a single tid-bit...


And essentially that is a hard truth. Not sure 'bout the PPC-part but yeah. I also fan of ER-PPCs and their current damage profile is a tid-bit odd to say at least... Yeah, I know, balance...

Apart from that get rid of instant weapon convergence and the need to lock all weapons to achieve a sure hit would be a good thing! It could balance the game between the different tiers a bit better than simple weapon-tweaks what just hurt newbies most of the times (on the other hand newbies should not start with LRMs because easier to lock-on and horison-bombing, that is also true)...


Hahaha
Those moments in FP when you take the turn and 7-9 Stalkers hit you with their fancy blue rays of doom! Far further than LRM range

Big no to every form of auto aim. This is first and foremost a Shooter. That u refuse to adept and bring bracket builds to fp with a bunch of players high above your skill level doesnt result in the solution everything has to be auto aim...

Sad to hear of your health situation! No matter win or loose u where always positive in fp, no matter how often u where farmed. Dont get mad because of a game and beat this **** cancer!

P.s.: the heat changes with ultra fast dissipation where ******** and dissipation needs to be tuned down hard.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 26 March 2023 - 04:20 AM.

[w0qj]

No auto-aim please.

This is first and foremost a thinking man's (or woman's) shooting game!

[Duke Falcon]

I not wish auto-aim weapons. Just noted that for a clear hit literally all weapons may need to "lock" the target. After fire it may brake lock automatically. My problem were the witchhunt because of LRMs' lock-on mechanism. I like clan LRMs because they could be dumb fired without lock (and result more damage than if you lock), for IS mechs I almost run exclusively MRMs (except perhaps my Hatamoto-chi what not have enough space but for SRMs currently <were lazy to check some new build options for it). I understand that some think it is auto-aim or aim-bot. Not really just something inherited from 20th century missiles up to the 31th century. May remove LRM lock if you wish, may not, but set it ablaze and those whom use it is just... Highly inappropriate I guess...

w0qj, on 26 March 2023 - 04:10 AM, said:

This is first and foremost a thinking man's (or woman's) shooting game!

I raged through my way T5 within 3 days because "berserk". Yesterday dropped by group and fall back to T5 because "thinking" (+ the lots of higher tier players stomped me all around ).

Ignatius Audene, on 26 March 2023 - 04:08 AM, said:

Sad to hear of your health situation! No matter win or loose u where always positive in fp, no matter how often u where farmed. Dont get mad because of a game and beat this **** cancer!

Thank you! I did it before I would do it again. Only the chemo-part is far from enjoyable...
And I liked, like and would like to play FP whenever I can No matter how many time you or the others would farm me At least sometimes I also have my kills