259 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

the check engine light, on 18 May 2023 - 12:36 PM, said:

It semi-compensates with its spindly geo. A lot of PPFLD shots that looked like they were about to connect with torso or arm went thru armpit area. Legging them is probably the most consistent way to fight them. That or nutshots possibly (need to look at hitbox map again)

I think it applies to all spindly mechs. Take a Spider...it tanks like a pro so the best option is to go for the legs

[Heavy Money]

Meep Meep, on 18 May 2023 - 09:17 AM, said:

@ Heavy



Maybe its due to me having a certain affinity for fast lights. Dunno, but this build is super fun and effective at least for me.

Haha nice. That must have been a lot of work lol

[Meep Meep]

Heavy Money, on 18 May 2023 - 06:54 PM, said:

Haha nice. That must have been a lot of work lol

Not as much as you would think. That damage score roughly translates into hitting each mech on the red team four times and with a basically two second cooldown you can get those shots in fairly easy. The main problem is that rotato potato typically keeps me from finding a nice farming spot and I have to constantly shift positions to get a decent line of fire. But when both teams are semi competent and form firing lines yeah buddy its on. Personally I do waaaay better in a five er med fle20 and have put in a fair amount of 800~1000+ damage matches with a few passing 1300. But I've been playing that build so long I had to start to find new harassment builds to use to keep up interest. After the lppc buffs I found my new toy though I kinda wish they would reduce slots to one as it would make it so much easier to fit on many light mechs which to me is the natural platform for the damn thing anyways.

[PocketYoda]

Sjorpha, on 03 April 2023 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't feel like sniping is dominating the metagame at all, lot's of good close and midrange mechs.

They are usually the ones finishing what the sniper meta started earlier.

[Widowmaker1981]

PocketYoda, on 19 May 2023 - 08:13 PM, said:

They are usually the ones finishing what the sniper meta started earlier.

Have you actually tried using pure sniper mechs yourself? If not, i recommend giving it a go.

Speaking for myself, midrange traders perform vastly more reliably than snipers in quickplay. Most matches on most maps make maintaining 750m+ engagement distance either impossible or overly dangerous due to being isolated and, once you are closer than that, the crap DPS of the long range weapons really hurts compared to things like C-LPLs and UAC5 spam.

When you get picked apart by a sniper from outside your engagement rage you notice and remember, because it is REALLY frustrating, so the frequency with which it happens will likely be exaggerated in your memory.

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 May 2023 - 05:11 AM, said:

Have you actually tried using pure sniper mechs yourself? If not, i recommend giving it a go.

Speaking for myself, midrange traders perform vastly more reliably than snipers in quickplay. Most matches on most maps make maintaining 750m+ engagement distance either impossible or overly dangerous due to being isolated and, once you are closer than that, the crap DPS of the long range weapons really hurts compared to things like C-LPLs and UAC5 spam.

When you get picked apart by a sniper from outside your engagement rage you notice and remember, because it is REALLY frustrating, so the frequency with which it happens will likely be exaggerated in your memory.

While that's true, there's also very often an extreme-range trading phase at the start of matches, and if you bring a bunch of long-range capable mechs -- AC5 and up -- to that, it allows for pretty significant snowball effects, intangibly in the form of map control, and tangibly in terms of how much damage your guys take vs. their guys as they work their way into their own effective range. It doesn't matter as much if you're losing trades at 600m if you've taken a bunch of winning ones at 800-900m and your team is up 3-0.

[Widowmaker1981]

foamyesque, on 21 May 2023 - 07:42 AM, said:

While that's true, there's also very often an extreme-range trading phase at the start of matches, and if you bring a bunch of long-range capable mechs -- AC5 and up -- to that, it allows for pretty significant snowball effects, intangibly in the form of map control, and tangibly in terms of how much damage your guys take vs. their guys as they work their way into their own effective range. It doesn't matter as much if you're losing trades at 600m if you've taken a bunch of winning ones at 800-900m and your team is up 3-0.

In my experience at least, that really only happens on a couple of map/mode combinations.

Alpine peaks on any mode that isnt domination and Frozen City Assault are the only ones that i can think of immediately where its often hard/impossible to approach to within ~500-600m engagement range of the enemy team without being forced to expose yourself to longer range enemies.

Every other map, you can usually use terrain to either approach the snipers or ignore them while you deal with the closer enemies. (If there are enough snipers spread far enough apart to prevent that via crossfire, they have isolated mechs all over the shop, just deathball and win). Im not saying sniping isnt an effective thing to do, a well positioned one can lock enemies out of a large area, which is very powerful, but they cant actually be proactive and attack anyone who doesnt choose to expose themselves to them.

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 May 2023 - 11:02 AM, said:

In my experience at least, that really only happens on a couple of map/mode combinations.

Alpine peaks on any mode that isnt domination and Frozen City Assault are the only ones that i can think of immediately where its often hard/impossible to approach to within ~500-600m engagement range of the enemy team without being forced to expose yourself to longer range enemies.

Every other map, you can usually use terrain to either approach the snipers or ignore them while you deal with the closer enemies. (If there are enough snipers spread far enough apart to prevent that via crossfire, they have isolated mechs all over the shop, just deathball and win). Im not saying sniping isnt an effective thing to do, a well positioned one can lock enemies out of a large area, which is very powerful, but they cant actually be proactive and attack anyone who doesnt choose to expose themselves to them.

Tourmaline and River City also have extremely potent sniper perches. Yeah, you can approach them unseen, but it takes time, and by the time you realize you might need to clear the snipers out in order to close, they might well have already shot up an attempted push and made things really difficult for you for the rest of the game.

[kalashnikity]

Thanks to this thread I put together a Kit Fox with ECM, Gauss and 3 tons of ammo. It's getting lots of hate. Pretty sure I got reported a few times last night.

Haters gonna hate, but it does ok, and it is way too much fun to drive. -40% cooldown, massive range and velocity buffs and 2x ammo (6 tons equivalent)... You have to keep up a stead rate of fire to get good damage numbers though, I've yet to break 500dmg, but I'll keep working at it. Still haven't run out of ammo, came close a few times.

[Heavy Money]

kalashnikity, on 22 May 2023 - 01:46 PM, said:

Thanks to this thread I put together a Kit Fox with ECM, Gauss and 3 tons of ammo. It's getting lots of hate. Pretty sure I got reported a few times last night.

Haters gonna hate, but it does ok, and it is way too much fun to drive. -40% cooldown, massive range and velocity buffs and 2x ammo (6 tons equivalent)... You have to keep up a stead rate of fire to get good damage numbers though, I've yet to break 500dmg, but I'll keep working at it. Still haven't run out of ammo, came close a few times.

It is very annoying. You should do something more useful for your team. But its not against the rules or anything to run bad annoying loadouts, lol. Its only against the rules if you're avoiding combat entirely just to drag the game out. But if you're still fighting, even with a lot of repositioning in between, then its not.

[kalashnikity]

Heavy Money, on 22 May 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

It is very annoying. You should do something more useful for your team. But its not against the rules or anything to run bad annoying loadouts, lol. Its only against the rules if you're avoiding combat entirely just to drag the game out. But if you're still fighting, even with a lot of repositioning in between, then its not.

I got yelled at in several losing matches last night but still ended up getting a significant percentage of kills. I needed to learn better Gauss skills anyways, and learn better positioning and figure out angles and nests for sniping, kit fox is a good way to do it, because it is fast enough to get there and figure it out on the fly. There is a thread right now complaining about people who don't know how to pilot assaults, the only way to learn is to play.

[Meep Meep]

Heavy Money, on 22 May 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

It is very annoying. You should do something more useful for your team. But its not against the rules or anything to run bad annoying loadouts, lol. Its only against the rules if you're avoiding combat entirely just to drag the game out. But if you're still fighting, even with a lot of repositioning in between, then its not.

I was running this last night and boy oh boy was it also generating salt.

pir-a

Not because it was ineffective. Quite the opposite. If that 2x lppc flea was annoying this ups it by a few factors.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 22 May 2023 - 08:48 PM, said:

I was running this last night and boy oh boy was it also generating salt.

pir-a

Not because it was ineffective. Quite the opposite. If that 2x lppc flea was annoying this ups it by a few factors.

If you knock off a sink or armour, you could even fit an AMS on that guy :v

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 22 May 2023 - 09:32 PM, said:

If you knock off a sink or armour, you could even fit an AMS on that guy :v

Knocking off a sink kinda ruins the heat management though. I tried it with one less sink and two heavy smalls for close in backup and I wasn't able to sustain constant ppc fire quite as well and had to stop to cool where I was just barely edging into overheat range before. No issues its not a brawler by any measure and just the er ppc is enough.

[Kynesis]

I'm glad that people are beginning to consider what measures might reasonably be taken. I'd like to suggest that people first think about the things that specifically make sniping so oppressive.

Among other things, I'd note as others have, that its popularity and impact seem to vary by tier, with it being most popular in the mid tiers and least popular in tiers 1 and 5. It also seems to be least impactful among top tier players (when facing snipers).
I hope that this can be tested via stats, I obviously can only talk about my impressions; As individuals other people are guaranteed to have different experiences.

Some of the primary issues are that snipers are generally detached from the rest of the game, picking off components, scoring kills and being extremely effective at area denial over massive areas, while also frequently being unassailable.

The effective ranges of long range weapons are multiples, in most cases many times that of 'regular' weapons. The 'field of engagement' is extremely asymmetric, they wield firepower, rate of fire and TTK on par with many mechs that can only engage at short ranges while also having dramatically better accuracy and critical damage characteristics at all ranges;

Gauss rounds are invisible and it can be very difficult even when shot directly in the front, to discern the source of an ERLL. Being that this is a game, players need to be able to see what's going on and react to that activity.

There are multiple layers of asymmetry.

With that as a starting point, I have a couple of suggestions (I'm not saying that these are solutions, they're a starting point).

* Maximum and maximum effective ranges across all long range weapons should be reduced.
* Long range weapons of all kinds should leave a visible trail if a projectile or beam traverses more than a few hundred meters.
* Potentially, changes to ECM so that players at long range can be targeted.

The thread's been thoughtful and very reasonable so far, please continue.

Edited by Kynesis, 24 May 2023 - 12:37 AM.

[IDGAFF]

The role of a sniper, is not only to well, snipe. It's to spot, cover the backs from flankers, and of course to get a big picture. The difference beteen a "sniper" and a sniper is the ability to comunicate!

I for one, will not remain "on top" for the entire round. I get a big picture, and move in on the team, many times getting up front to boot. I do run sniper builds, all the way to the enemy's face. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. I think the ultimate point of a sniper build, is to be able to start dealing damage from 1200m, compaired to 400!

[Kamiko Kross]

Swamp *** MkII, on 14 August 2024 - 05:44 AM, said:

The role of a sniper, is not only to well, snipe. It's to spot, cover the backs from flankers, and of course to get a big picture. The difference beteen a "sniper" and a sniper is the ability to comunicate!

I for one, will not remain "on top" for the entire round. I get a big picture, and move in on the team, many times getting up front to boot. I do run sniper builds, all the way to the enemy's face. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. I think the ultimate point of a sniper build, is to be able to start dealing damage from 1200m, compaired to 400!

I wish the backline brigade were more like you.
Mostly, they position themselves where the team is between them and the enemy.
They only fire when it's 100% safe and farm large scores.
Usually when i spectate them, they rarely come to the aid of a team mate-more interested in farming more.
I note most of them run early, when a push happened rather than lend their firepower to halting it they run-using their team mate's deaths to buy time to get into next farm spot.
Yeah I'm salty, but this is what i see when i'm watching through their cockpit....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kamiko Kross, on 14 August 2024 - 01:27 PM, said:

Mostly, they position themselves where the team is between them and the enemy.

Well that's kinda the point, if you have a ranged build, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage by getting close where you are typically outgunned. While a lot of times these player don't communicate that they plan to be there, the other issue is that teams often overextend way past the ranged mech's overwatch and then want that mech to move up with the rest of the team when there may be less advantageous positions for that mech, not to mention during that transition it requires moving through terrain that is easier to get caught out in and you lose map control.

Now that said, long range traders should still draw some aggro but typically if they are running ECM they are way too pristine at the end of the game which is problematic if they are doing it consistently.

[LordNothing]

so bumping one ancient history thread wasn't enough, you had to do 2.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 14 August 2024 - 06:41 PM, said:

Well that's kinda the point, if you have a ranged build, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage by getting close where you are typically outgunned. While a lot of times these player don't communicate that they plan to be there, the other issue is that teams often overextend way past the ranged mech's overwatch and then want that mech to move up with the rest of the team when there may be less advantageous positions for that mech, not to mention during that transition it requires moving through terrain that is easier to get caught out in and you lose map control.

Now that said, long range traders should still draw some aggro but typically if they are running ECM they are way too pristine at the end of the game which is problematic if they are doing it consistently.

I remember a recent(ish) game I had in a WHK-Prime Lightning Chucker where I parked my keister on the high ground overlooking the center speedball arena on emerald Vale, and the team largely fought on 'our' end of said arena. Nailed over a thousand damage in that game, dang near every noodle that poked around any corner earned a lightning noogie for its efforts. Won that game something like 12-3, nobody on the other team could initiate a push without getting lightning'd. At least, mostly - my heat sinks were working haaahd that game.

Second game later that night, same map, same 'Mech. Less than 200 damage because the team bulled aggressively forward as fast as possible and I could not keep a decent overwatch point. Hadda jump down and try to 'snipe' from the back edges of the scrum, and it turns out quad cERPPC 'Mechs are incredibly vulnerable to...basically anything else that gets within 'bout 500 meters of them. the durned thing basically has no defense against anything that can shoot back since the heat on those cERPPCs is so relentlessly punishing. Lost that game handily.

The second result there is by far the more common one whenever I get the weird brain bug in my head that makes me break out the SniperHawk.

Dedicated long-range builds in the Mosh Pit are seriously risky. If everything goes right for that 'mech it gets to go on a legendary tear, but if even one thing doesn't pan out? Most dedicated snipers end up as boat anchors. You have to hope you get a map with strong overwatch positions on it, you have to hope your team stays within range of those strong overwatch positions and fights there, you have to hope the enemy continually stumbles out into the field of fire of those strong overwatch positions, and you have to hope the enemy doesn't have a hunter-killer or three that will take it into their heads to Liam Neeson you. If all of those things happen, you get to feel like a Greek God hurling lightning death down upon the hapless mortals. If anything else happens, you're pointless for a game.

There's a reason real long range 'Mechs are rare in the Mosh, and more rarely still have any appreciable impact on the game.