44 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

So now that BAP has been changed to one ton one slot for the sake of balance in a first person shooter how about the same for IS ecm? And before the lore warriors all pounce no its not going to ruin the 'clan advantage' because the clan advantage are their low weight low slot weapons and double sinks not that their ecm and active probe are smaller.

[sycocys]

Game could use less ecm - don't actually mind them dropping the weight but have them produce some heat or something to counteract its above par buff for the tonnage.

[Meep Meep]

Well I don't see this increasing ecm use because ecm mechs are already using it by default. This would be a QoL change with little impact on general gameplay. At best you might stuff in an extra haft ton of ammo or add back a bit of the armor you shaved to get a certain fit or upgrade a small laser into a medium etc.

[sycocys]

The ecm system on both sides needs some balance itself - heat would be a good start - or a heat cap reduction, same for bap and tc's all the added computer systems should have a heat cost with the lack of an energy system. Heat cap reduction would be a reasonable addition to guass as well for that matter.

I just don't care whether the IS version gets a half ton off, very rarely run it myself because I never liked the mechanic as they programmed it.

[Meep Meep]

Well they did nerf ecm effectiveness a few patches back so that you show up on radar from farther away. Plus radar dep got a slight nerf so you don't insta drop off radar if a pixel wide terrain object momentarily breaks los. That was a fun one to abuse on the maps with lots of pipes and other spikey stuff sticking up.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i think ECM is fine where its at. honestly there is to much of it anymore for something that was Rare equipment in Lore (i know a lot of players don't know **** about lore or simply don't care but there are those that do).

as for BP and TCs adding heat i don't think we need that. they are rarely used as is and adding some kind of heat effect would make them not used at all. i honestly feel that TCs need a buff (nothing drastic, perhaps let the projectile speed buff effect missiles, PPCs, and LBX (not sure if they effect LBX or not), maybe even add an LBX spread buff, )

you have to remember that the vast majority of players don't use anything that will take even a small percentage from their max alpha or speed. that one ton for a MK1 TC is a ML, 2 SLs, 1t ammo, or even a heat sink. hell even i rarely use them and only on mechs where i have that extra ton but no hardpoints i can use and i can't upgrade the engine further. they just aren't a big enough boost to be worth the tonnage.

its like Artemis for LRM, they nerfed it to the point where it isn't worth the extra slot and ton per launcher.

[Johny Rocket]

VeeOt Dragon, on 19 April 2023 - 06:08 PM, said:

i think ECM is fine where its at. honestly there is to much of it anymore for something that was Rare equipment in Lore (i know a lot of players don't know **** about lore or simply don't care but there are those that do).

as for BP and TCs adding heat i don't think we need that. they are rarely used as is and adding some kind of heat effect would make them not used at all. i honestly feel that TCs need a buff (nothing drastic, perhaps let the projectile speed buff effect missiles, PPCs, and LBX (not sure if they effect LBX or not), maybe even add an LBX spread buff, )

you have to remember that the vast majority of players don't use anything that will take even a small percentage from their max alpha or speed. that one ton for a MK1 TC is a ML, 2 SLs, 1t ammo, or even a heat sink. hell even i rarely use them and only on mechs where i have that extra ton but no hardpoints i can use and i can't upgrade the engine further. they just aren't a big enough boost to be worth the tonnage.

its like Artemis for LRM, they nerfed it to the point where it isn't worth the extra slot and ton per launcher.

I like to run streaks and ATMs on ECM mechs, I use BAP and TC for the lock gain time reduction. For Streaks an ECM and BAP are almost essential to counter your targets ECM keeping you from locking them. If Im low on ammo I may drop the TC and just rely on quirk/skill for gain time but push come to shove I will reduce weapons count before not being able to lock.




I think ghost heat being added to any of these would be about the end of this game for me. Sick of heat being the go to punishment for anything they want to balance, its lazy.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i actually TCs do nothing for target gain what they increase is how fast you get the enemy paper doll info. at least thats how i remember. i don't think there is anything that actually increases your gain time other than TAG. BP might but its more as a counter to ECM (i honestly think that BP should counter 1 enemy ECM source within its range as a counter to all the ECM on the field.)

[sycocys]

I do think a heat cap reduction to electronic based items and most of the computer systems outside of ecm getting buffs would be a good balance.

CC for instance should get some baseline buffs and add a bubble so it buffs friendly ranges/information acquisition.

Also should be a wider array of computers that don't provide general buffs, but for specific weapons systems, even additional buffs for bap/ecm that make them better at a further cost - and in my opinion also to utilize consumables (and just jettison the replacement cost).

The only weapon system that should have it is guass, and it would do work for the guass ppc/erll combos to help reduce their shorter range brawl capability. Won't really have much affect on them standing back and launching their alphas and cooling, but creates a situation where they aren't nearly as effective once the range closes in.

[VeeOt Dragon]

still a no on the heat cap but i do like the idea of differing TCs for different weapon systems (even if its as simple as Missile, ballistic, Energy) as long as the buffs are a little greater than what the standard TC gives. the idea of the CC giving small buff to allies in a certain radius is a good one as well.

like i said if you make computers and such give a nerf you anything by using them people just wont use them. you have to make the benefits outweigh the cost. given how minimal the benefit is any nerf would make them useless in the long run.

hell as it sits who in their right mind would even equip say a MK5 TC. thats 5 TONS you can't use elsewhere but look how high the TCs go.

[Meep Meep]

VeeOt Dragon, on 19 April 2023 - 06:08 PM, said:

i think ECM is fine where its at.

So do I after the radar dep and ecm nerfs. This is about fittings not ecm mechanics. If they are normalizing active probes might as well do ecm too since its a support module.

[VeeOt Dragon]

the biggest difference is that ECM is a huge buff to any mech that carries it where BP is not so much. if you lighten the ECM and decrease its slot count that just gives ECM mechs an even further buff. TCs and such are massively under utilized so i can see why they tried to soft buff them. Clan equipment is already lighter and takes less slots so t makes sense to just handle the IS probe. i just honestly don't think the game needs any further incentives for using ECM mechs than it already does.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Johny Rocket, on 19 April 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

I like to run streaks and ATMs on ECM mechs, I use BAP and TC for the lock gain time reduction. For Streaks an ECM and BAP are almost essential to counter your targets ECM keeping you from locking them. If Im low on ammo I may drop the TC and just rely on quirk/skill for gain time but push come to shove I will reduce weapons count before not being able to lock.

Oh boy, here we go again.
First and foremost, (B)AP and TC do not reduce the lock time for missiles. They do increase your sensor range and that in turn reduces time on out-of-LOS-locks, but only very slightly.
Also the sensor skills do not affect missile lock time.
Next, when carrying an ECM and a (B)AP, the counter ability of your (B)AP is disabled. You must switch your ECM to counter to engage enemy ECM.

[Lithology]

Johny Rocket, on 19 April 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think ghost heat being added to any of these would be about the end of this game for me. Sick of heat being the go to punishment for anything they want to balance, its lazy.

I agree with the 'ghost heat punishment' angle... yet, with these sort of stats halfway through the month, how do you even have time to post in MWO Forums?
1 Johny Rocket 489 448 1.09 575 657 0.88 940 245

[LordNothing]

i more wanted to see bap get a huge buff, rather in performance than tonnage. should be used as a general ecm counter and range extender. its kind of bad at both those things for its cost. so i understand why the brought it down, but id rather it be more powerful.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 April 2023 - 10:10 PM.

[Meep Meep]

VeeOt Dragon, on 19 April 2023 - 08:53 PM, said:

the biggest difference is that ECM is a huge buff to any mech that carries it where BP is not so much. if you lighten the ECM and decrease its slot count that just gives ECM mechs an even further buff. TCs and such are massively under utilized so i can see why they tried to soft buff them. Clan equipment is already lighter and takes less slots so t makes sense to just handle the IS probe. i just honestly don't think the game needs any further incentives for using ECM mechs than it already does.

Ok then. Give me an example of an IS ecm mech that would become unbalanced if the ecm was only one slot and one ton.

[sycocys]

VeeOt Dragon, on 19 April 2023 - 08:29 PM, said:

still a no on the heat cap but i do like the idea of differing TCs for different weapon systems
hell as it sits who in their right mind would even equip say a MK5 TC. thats 5 TONS you can't use elsewhere but look how high the TCs go.

You might not use them, min/max people would still use whatever gives them a slighter advantage. An increasing heat cap reduction would be a good mechanic to allow them to be buffed as useful for something other than component crit chance.

Even as crappy as they are tc's do still increase your component crit chance - the higher level ones by a somewhat reasonable amount - and there is logistically only so much ammo you can put on target in a match so there are options for using even as high as the 5 tonner, even higher one some of the weird low hardpoint mechs.
Can pretty much guarantee some folks in higher tiers are using them given the fairly regular occurrence of early equipment crits I've received - and can tell you in my few splatters that use them, the increase crit makes a reasonable difference.

Meep Meep, on 20 April 2023 - 12:59 AM, said:

Ok then. Give me an example of an IS ecm mech that would become unbalanced if the ecm was only one slot and one ton.

Well its already unbalanced because they refuse to fix the mech, but the trashcan with ecm would be more so. There's several light mechs and a couple mediums that out perform the rest of their variants simply because of the ecm, that would simply buff them further away.

[Meep Meep]

sycocys, on 20 April 2023 - 03:50 AM, said:

Well its already unbalanced because they refuse to fix the mech, but the trashcan with ecm would be more so. There's several light mechs and a couple mediums that out perform the rest of their variants simply because of the ecm, that would simply buff them further away.

Ok, so give me an example fit of the ecm urby with an additional half ton of weight and one more spare slot that would push it into no no land?

[TheCaptainJZ]

Since ECM is so powerful I honestly wouldn't care if they increased its tonnage. Not sure how many stock builds that would break.

They could even scale it by weight like MASC. An ECM Assault is more powerful for less investment.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 20 April 2023 - 12:45 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

TheCaptainJZ, on 20 April 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

They could even scale it by weight like MASC. An ECM Assault is more powerful for less investment.

Not disputing that ECM is powerful and an insta pick on any chassis that can run it, but i think you have that backwards. Its more powerful on smaller mechs because its main strength is that you dont get a red box advertising your presence to the enemies. Assault mechs are generally fat, slow and obvious so they get noticed more easily by MK1 Eyeball and are easier to keep track of because they cant reposition easily. Lighter mechs are usually much more mobile and harder to spot visually, plus have greater need to avoid being spotted as they have less armour.