77 replies to this topic

[Heavy Money]

PocketYoda, on 24 April 2023 - 07:31 PM, said:

Actually nearly all clan mechs these days are er large and long range ballistics.. Not just Madcats..

The only good long range ballistic to mix with ERLL is Gauss. This is very strong on a few mechs in good hands, most notably DWF-C, NTG, MCII-1/DS, and MAD-IIC-D. But this isn't nearly all clan mechs you see these days. Laservomit heavies of all sorts of incredibly common. So is dakka heavies and assaults. Gauss+ERLL is strong, but so is other stuff.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

PocketYoda, on 22 April 2023 - 09:43 PM, said:

Lately i've been losing interest in MWO due to the sniper meta, i personally do not find it fun at all, anyone have some good counters to this meta..

I'm talking whole teams setup for this frankly boring meta.. Blue lasers and similar are far too long range imo.

I understand or at least it seems this is what the Cauldron seems to find fun and promote but i'm not feeling it myself.. Thinking about taking another extended break at this time.

Hey great question man, thanks for posting and sorry you had to endure the typical 'you're wrong!' and 'git gud!' nonsense for simply asking for some help and advice. I hope you found some good advice in the thread otherwise, my input is to never stop moving, rock back and forth when stationary, zig now and then when you run, and communicate locations with your teammate on chat. Nothing neuters a sniper like a lack of targets.

And people? don't be such jerks to posters who are asking helpful questions alright? If they are mistaken or don't know something you do then take a moment to post something that will help them, and use the kind of tone you would in real life, we gotta make the community we want, not feed the community that just happens when we post crap from the hilt to show off how great we are.

Respond to posters asking for advice and questions like they are someone you would like to play with, what does a little civility cost? especially when it pays back so big.

[Heavy Money]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 25 April 2023 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hey great question man, thanks for posting and sorry you had to endure the typical 'you're wrong!' and 'git gud!' nonsense for simply asking for some help and advice. I hope you found some good advice in the thread otherwise, my input is to never stop moving, rock back and forth when stationary, zig now and then when you run, and communicate locations with your teammate on chat. Nothing neuters a sniper like a lack of targets.

And people? don't be such jerks to posters who are asking helpful questions alright? If they are mistaken or don't know something you do then take a moment to post something that will help them, and use the kind of tone you would in real life, we gotta make the community we want, not feed the community that just happens when we post crap from the hilt to show off how great we are.

Respond to posters asking for advice and questions like they are someone you would like to play with, what does a little civility cost? especially when it pays back so big.

Quote me where they were mocked or told to git gud. The entire thread so far is practical advice on how to counter snipers. They were also informed that their boogeyman wasn't real. Doing that isn't being a jerk unless you have some whacky emotional attachment to believing that you can't succeed because the game is unfair.

They weren't simply asking for advice and you know it. They are perpetuating this bitter 'sniper meta' meme that is pushed by a a few people here, and the idea that this was somehow created by and benefits the Cauldron. The gratuitous hyperbole tells you this isn't just about getting help, its about complaining. It gives other players the wrong idea. People come to these forums for advice, and get told that the game is unfair and broken because of the sniper meta and those bad Cauldron people pushing it. It primes people for confirmation bias when they see a sniper do well. It sets people up to enjoy the game less because they perceive an issue that isn't true, and that gets confirmed more by threads like this that take it for granted in the premise of their question.

And its a big insult to the many people who have contributed to the balance discussions that have helped shape what the Cauldron has done for this game. So stop clutching your pearls and defend the people actually being insulted.

Also, there is no sniper meta. The Meta option is the best thing to take all the time. Snipers are not that. They are strong when properly played, and more importantly, when not properly countered (and this thread is full of advice on how to do that.) Top players who snipe will often produce crazy scores when people let them do it, and those get cherry picked. But snipers are not the best performing role on average. That is laservomit and mid range dakka.

Edited by Heavy Money, 25 April 2023 - 06:12 PM.

[Asylum Choir]

Lockheed_, on 22 April 2023 - 11:59 PM, said:

There's no sniper meta.
The meta is mid range laser vomit and dakka and before the nerfs to snubs it was snubs and SNAC.
Learn to use cover. Get close.

Except if half the mechs on your team are peek poky "snipers" you may have issues.You NEED yours to be better than theirs or you'll be facing their "snipers" AND brawlers when you get there.

[LordNothing]

wolfpacks. definately wolfpacks. lerms can also work with team support, unless you got one of the top lermers on your team. wouldnt mind seeing an atm ammo buff so their long range mode can be used. had an interesting game on an infinite ammo + polar eq, was able to use them at 1200m. was kind of a different beast than lerms.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

Heavy Money, on 25 April 2023 - 06:09 PM, said:

Quote me where they were mocked or told to git gud. The entire thread so far is practical advice on how to counter snipers. They were also informed that their boogeyman wasn't real. Doing that isn't being a jerk unless you have some whacky emotional attachment to believing that you can't succeed because the game is unfair.

They weren't simply asking for advice and you know it. They are perpetuating this bitter 'sniper meta' meme that is pushed by a a few people here, and the idea that this was somehow created by and benefits the Cauldron. The gratuitous hyperbole tells you this isn't just about getting help, its about complaining. It gives other players the wrong idea. People come to these forums for advice, and get told that the game is unfair and broken because of the sniper meta and those bad Cauldron people pushing it. It primes people for confirmation bias when they see a sniper do well. It sets people up to enjoy the game less because they perceive an issue that isn't true, and that gets confirmed more by threads like this that take it for granted in the premise of their question.

And its a big insult to the many people who have contributed to the balance discussions that have helped shape what the Cauldron has done for this game. So stop clutching your pearls and defend the people actually being insulted.

Also, there is no sniper meta. The Meta option is the best thing to take all the time. Snipers are not that. They are strong when properly played, and more importantly, when not properly countered (and this thread is full of advice on how to do that.) Top players who snipe will often produce crazy scores when people let them do it, and those get cherry picked. But snipers are not the best performing role on average. That is laservomit and mid range dakka.

Dude... get your facts straight: I didn't mention your name, I didn't mention anyone else's name in my post, the only person putting you into the equation is... you in your post.

Why you decided it was you I was talking about I couldn't say, its not my thing to try and read people's minds. Can I suggest you take your own advice and stop trying to personalize the conversation.

Also? refrain from posting this kind of abusive nonsense towards me ever again, I try to be a easy going guy, but I'm not going to sit by and let people try to bully me, you have been warned, grow up.

[Orion_]

Counter sniping with more effective sniping.

Snipers are great if you can sneak up on them. Find one staring and not moving much, get within range, introduce 42 damage to their face, free entertainment in all chat. Your milage may vary depending on if they have half a brain but a solid half of my headshots are on snipers and LRMers not knowing what was about to happen.

[PocketYoda]

Heavy Money, on 24 April 2023 - 08:24 PM, said:

The only good long range ballistic to mix with ERLL is Gauss. This is very strong on a few mechs in good hands, most notably DWF-C, NTG, MCII-1/DS, and MAD-IIC-D. But this isn't nearly all clan mechs you see these days. Laservomit heavies of all sorts of incredibly common. So is dakka heavies and assaults. Gauss+ERLL is strong, but so is other stuff.

A lot are boating AC, Lbx and Uacs 2s and 5s en mass.

[sycocys]

If you really want to annoy them cruise into flank with a nova prime with 12 small pulse. Bonus points for dropping 60 into a rear ct while they stare through the viewfinder.

[PocketYoda]

So to counter the sniper meta, the people sniping destroy the thread instead with pointless memes.. yeah toxic forums as usual.

[Widowmaker1981]

PocketYoda, on 27 April 2023 - 05:56 AM, said:

So to counter the sniper meta, the people sniping destroy the thread instead with pointless memes.. yeah toxic forums as usual.

Could you define what you consider to be 'sniping' exactly?

[sycocys]

There's some truth to "get gud", there isn't and automatic counter to it - a lot of it has to do with learning quality positioning and kiting terrain (ie why so many people had issues with the "snipers" on the new map) - you also have to be willing to actually balance your build for firepower and mobility as well as understand fire cycling rates when you do get yourself into position.

And honestly when they are outside of their 4x sniper groups focusing a single target at a time, that play style is generally not good for much other than being an alternate version of lrms - high damage, mostly useless in terms of swaying a match.

[Meep Meep]

PocketYoda, on 27 April 2023 - 05:56 AM, said:

So to counter the sniper meta, the people sniping destroy the thread instead with pointless memes.. yeah toxic forums as usual.

Sniping meta is the guilty pleasure of most of the forum goers. They instinctively ~hate~ anything which might potentially counter them so they pounce to denounce any such ideas. This is why you see data with his light hating videos because he knows thats the real counter to his lazor vomit normal play. Also why he always cherry picks his videos to highlight wiping out tier 3 potats then crowing about how 'op' said light mech is..

[Widowmaker1981]

Meep Meep, on 27 April 2023 - 10:58 AM, said:

Sniping meta is the guilty pleasure of most of the forum goers. They instinctively ~hate~ anything which might potentially counter them so they pounce to denounce any such ideas. This is why you see data with his light hating videos because he knows thats the real counter to his lazor vomit normal play. Also why he always cherry picks his videos to highlight wiping out tier 3 potats then crowing about how 'op' said light mech is..

Could you define precisely what you mean by 'sniping' ?

It isnt really entirely clear, and sometimes it feels like people are including mid range trading from cover when they talk about 'sniping'. For example, you start off talking about 'Sniping meta' then refer to 'laser vomit', which doesn't normally refer to what i would consider to be sniping.

[Meep Meep]

'Sniping meta' to me is sitting at least 700m+ back from the fight and using blue lazor/gauss/ppc vomit(typically using a macro to avoid ghost heat) to casually core out mechs distracted by punching each other in the face. The 'wallflower' meta which you can find in near every game when you hit tier 2 and the gates to the tryhards is opened fully for every mm roster. At tier 4 and 5 its almost non existent or ineffective if someone tries it and at tier 3 you still get enough lower tiers to make it the exception not the rule.

Edited by Meep Meep, 27 April 2023 - 11:41 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Meep Meep, on 27 April 2023 - 11:25 AM, said:

'Sniping meta' to me is sitting at least 700m+ back from the fight and using blue lazor/gauss/ppc vomit(typically using a macro to avoid ghost heat) to casually core out mechs distracted by punching each other in the face. The 'wallflower' meta which you can find in near every game when you hit tier 2 and the gates to the tryhards is opened fully for every mm roster. At tier 4 and 5 its almost non existent or ineffective if someone tries it and at tier 3 you still get enough lower tiers to make it the exception not the rule.

OK, so would a Blood Asp with 5 LPLs peeking from behind a ridge 500m away qualify? What about a HLL/ERML Hellbringer or Shadow Cat doing the same? Because if so, i think what you really mean is 'not brawling'.

If not, then there is no 'Sniping meta' - mid range is vastly more common (and, in my experience anyway, much more reliable in terms of damage output and match score)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 27 April 2023 - 12:49 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 April 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

OK, so would a Blood Asp with 5 LPLs peeking from behind a ridge 500m away qualify? What about a HLL/ERML Hellbringer or Shadow Cat doing the same? Because if so, i think what you really mean is 'not brawling'.

If not, then there is no 'Sniping meta' - mid range is vastly more common.

Thats typically mid range trading where you expect return fire so you go with low duration weapons and I'd say the bulk of higher tier qp combat happens at those ranges. Those can quickly turn into brawling situations if a few mobile mechs push the position. The wallflower sniping meta typically has you sitting so far out of combat that only the fastest mechs(aka lights and certain mediums) have any chance of disrupting your play.

[Cheri Entop]

'Snipers' are slow and run hot. Run up to them and brawl them.

'NASCAR' works because you're traveling as a group, using terrain as cover, to catch those slow hot 'Mechs out-of-position so you can swallow them up.

The pilots that complain about NASCAR make those dumb slow builds. Can you imagine having a walking tank and deciding to stand still? It boggles the mind.

Having faster 'Mechs than your opponents is an advantage, and you have to use that advantage.

Edited by Cheri Entop, 27 April 2023 - 01:11 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Meep Meep, on 27 April 2023 - 12:49 PM, said:

Thats typically mid range trading where you expect return fire so you go with low duration weapons and I'd say the bulk of higher tier qp combat happens at those ranges. Those can quickly turn into brawling situations if a few mobile mechs push the position. The wallflower sniping meta typically has you sitting so far out of combat that only the fastest mechs(aka lights and certain mediums) have any chance of disrupting your play.

Well, HLL arent low duration weapons, but main point agreed that mid range laser vomit and dakka comprise the majority of builds in matches.

To be honest, thats pretty obviously going to be the case and not a sign of bad balance. Longer range weapons are effective when you can maintain range, but you cant always do that and if you cant they have bad DPS and bad heat efficiency compared to the mid range options. Brawl range weapons are also very effective once you overcome their downside and can make use of the vastly better DPS and DPH they offer, but you cant always do that either. So, predictably, the most popular choice is the more reliable middle option.

Which means there isnt a 'wallflower sniping meta' - if there was, most combat would happen at longer range. Its just some people sniping.

Do you want long range weapons to just be.. bad and unused?

[Heavy Money]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 26 April 2023 - 09:05 PM, said:

Dude... get your facts straight: I didn't mention your name, I didn't mention anyone else's name in my post, the only person putting you into the equation is... you in your post.

Why you decided it was you I was talking about I couldn't say, its not my thing to try and read people's minds. Can I suggest you take your own advice and stop trying to personalize the conversation.

Also? refrain from posting this kind of abusive nonsense towards me ever again, I try to be a easy going guy, but I'm not going to sit by and let people try to bully me, you have been warned, grow up.

Nothing in my post implies that I thought you were specifically calling me out. It doesn't exist in the language at all. It only exists in your mind, much like your perception that people were bullying the OP, or that my post is abuse. Yes, my post was strongly disagreeing with you. And people were disagreeing with parts of what the OP said. Neither is abuse or bullying. People were not going after either you or the OP just for the sake of it, or being randomly mean, or pretending things happened that didn't and using that as an excuse to point fingers or make accusations about abusing people. You are. And calling you out on that STILL isn't abuse.

A veneer of being nice doesn't make you the good guy when you start lying and projecting.

(Of course now people ARE mocking you, but that's different, and mostly in jest.)

Edited by Heavy Money, 27 April 2023 - 03:39 PM.