77 replies to this topic

[Heavy Money]

PocketYoda, on 26 April 2023 - 10:22 PM, said:

A lot are boating AC, Lbx and Uacs 2s and 5s en mass.

Ah, well, part of this may be a confusion in terminology. I'll lay out the definitions as they are commonly used:

Sniping usually refers to extreme long range with high alpha/pinpoint. Gauss, ERLL, ERPPC.

Size 2 ballistics are not high alpha. They are sustained fire weapons. So even though they have a lot of range, they generally are not considered to be snipers. This isn't just a semantic point because the counter to an AC2 boat is often different than the counter to Gauss+ERLL. This is because of the alpha size. The AC2 boat can't do much damage if its only gets a few shots, so they are much easier to close distance on when hopping between cover. Whereas a high alpha sniper will still do the same effect damage even if you're going in and out of cover. And the AC2 boat will have a lot more dps, and thus be able to defend itself better up close.

Also the AC boat needs to stay exposed to deal damage, which leaves it vulnerable to getting poked to death by higher alpha stuff, LRMs, etc. They cannot trade effectively. So they get taken apart by stuff like clan laservomit heavies that can deliver more damage with an alpha than the AC boat can do before the heavy gets back in cover. But the AC2 boat will punish people that get caught in the open much better than a high alpha sniper can. So all these differences is why people draw this distinction between merely very long range dakka and snipers.

Size 5 ballistics generally are not considered snipers either because they have less range and are also different. Although there are some mechs that have a respectable alpha at very long range while using them, such as Madcats or Direwolves mixing AC5s and ERPPCs. Those loadouts are kind of in a fuzzy area with some sniper weapons and some long range dakka. Also there's other mechs with enough range quirks to push AC5's to very long ranges, but they still aren't really snipers, they're dakka.

So basically, if you are using a definition that 'sniper' is anything with more than 500m effective range, then sure there's a sniper meta. If you define sniper as very long range high alpha as most do, then there isn't. If your complaint is that laservomit and about AC5 size dakka and equivalent are the meta, then absolutely you are correct. You've just got the terminology confused.

Personally, I do think that things might be skewed a bit too much towards the 500-700 range bracket right now. Part of that is because in disorganized gameplay, long range that can focus fire does beat close range, even it doesn't in organized environments. This is basically a universal of all games though. If the game is balanced around a coordinated short range team usually beating a coordinated long range team (which it is right now, as we see in comp) then that almost always means that an uncoordinated short range team will lose to an uncoordinated long range team. And if short range is made strong enough that this doesn't happen, then there's no point in playing long range. This is a very common issue you'll see in many games. The fact that MWO has ended up here is actually a good sign, because a game reaches this state only after most other balance issues are resolved.

If you'd like advice on how to deal with Size 5 dakka boats and similar, then we're happy to help.

[PocketYoda]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 April 2023 - 11:17 AM, said:

Could you define precisely what you mean by 'sniping' ?

It isnt really entirely clear, and sometimes it feels like people are including mid range trading from cover when they talk about 'sniping'. For example, you start off talking about 'Sniping meta' then refer to 'laser vomit', which doesn't normally refer to what i would consider to be sniping.

Standing on a high hard to reach area using "mostly" hit scan weapons that hit over 1700-2500 meters all match as a group..

Edited by PocketYoda, 27 April 2023 - 09:25 PM.

[Mark Yore]

VeeOt Dragon, on 23 April 2023 - 06:55 AM, said:

an LRM mech with some good scouting. rain on the snipers from behind cover. (still requires getting into at least 1k of them with the right LRM quirks. closer the better). if nothing else it keeps them hiding and if they are hiding they aren't shooting. teamwork is what you need. (had a good match today where the other teams entire assault lance were sniper mechs. we got lucky and had a light mech with NARC. i ended up with over 1k dmg in an LRM Hunchback. their snipers barely got to fire without getting Lurmed. fired every round of amo then went in to work with my 4 ER SLs to help clean up) what is funny is when you are running one of hose LRM mechs with the nice range Quirks and the ER LL sniper thinks he is safely out of range only to get pummeled. (i run BAP on my LRM mechs for added sensor range even though i much prefer using them under 500m sometimes you just have to rain on something in the distance and it helps if you can get the lock yourself since so many players don't seem to know how to use the R key)

Get a stupidly overpowered LRM boat like the Blood Asp Rancor and rain so many missiles down (mine works well dropping 140 on chain fire) that a sniper just can't aim and ends up staying behind cover for most of the match. The best advice is to stay in the middle of your group or you will die very, very quickly.

[Meep Meep]

Mark Yore, on 27 April 2023 - 10:17 PM, said:

Get a stupidly overpowered LRM boat like the Blood Asp Rancor and rain so many missiles down (mine works well dropping 140 on chain fire) that a sniper just can't aim and ends up staying behind cover for most of the match. The best advice is to stay in the middle of your group or you will die very, very quickly.

That doesn't work when you get to tier 3 and higher. Ecm, full radar dep and positioning are very much in play at that level and its rare you will get mechs dumb enough to expose long enough to get hit.

[foamyesque]

Yeah, "LRM to counter snipers" is... not great, as advice. It can work well but if you can make LRMs do it you can make any other mid-long range weapon (AC5s, LPLs, and such) work plenty fine too.

The thing is there are a lot of people running ERLL flashlights, gauss/ERPPCs, or even the aforementioned mid-long stuff like LPLs and AC5s, in various combinations, all of which can make trying to close in for stuff with medium-laser-or-less brawl range brackets very, very frustrating.

In general the counterplay to snipers is to generate counterfire, so's they can't take their pick of shots and ideally are forced to eat the downsides of their weapons (longer cooldowns, worse damage/heat, worse damage/ton). Finding ways to do that is, hm, tricky, particularly on some maps like Tourmaline where the sniper perches can take quite a while to access even for lights. PPC poptarting seems to be a decent choice, especially if you've got ECM. I've also had success with snub PPCs on fast movers, 'cause a lot of snipers rely on ECM and being able to break that can bring a whole lot more pain on them than they're ready to accept.

[Saved By The Bell]

TTB sniping completely alone. Even no ECM.
Go and kill him. Or hide at least.

https://youtu.be/Oj8guy9xSOs?t=136

[Vonbach]

Cheri Entop, on 27 April 2023 - 01:09 PM, said:

'Snipers' are slow and run hot. Run up to them and brawl them.

And get cored 700m from the target.

[Orion_]

PocketYoda, on 27 April 2023 - 05:56 AM, said:

So to counter the sniper meta, the people sniping destroy the thread instead with pointless memes.. yeah toxic forums as usual.

ONE meme at the end of a dozen helpful responses. Cry somewhere else.

[sycocys]

foamyesque, on 29 April 2023 - 08:10 PM, said:

Yeah, "LRM to counter snipers" is... not great, as advice. It can work well but if you can make LRMs do it you can make any other mid-long range weapon (AC5s, LPLs, and such) work plenty fine too.

The nice thing about LRMs as a counter is if you can see their position you can dumbfire them and walk away to continue your approach or kite.
No missile warning until you lock.

[BLACKR0SE]

Stop giving advice to people, there is no one left to hunt.

[PocketYoda]

I decided to use the event as LRM setup.. That SNS-D(P) mech is not my favorite.. So in the end i've decided to go 2xLRM20s, 2x ErLarge and one Ermedium.. its some what helping in the sniper meta it at least makes them need to relocate a lot.. Gotta say not liking Sunspiders.. Think i sold a SNS-D once already.. but this is a loyalty thing from last year..

[Davegt27]

OP try to rotate away from the sniper

then you can work on the closer Mechs and go for the sniper at the end

try not to push into sniper because you will be pushing into closer firing mechs and the sniper at the same time

it also means
try not to push into the open push into cover

HTHs

[The Brewer]

The “sniper meta” in QP is a combination of things - one, an experienced range trader knows where to go to be able to shoot early and often, no matter what combination of things happens, which helps drive wins. Two, it holds advantage over players with lesser map awareness/mechanics knowledge/general skill. ECM presently very strong is another factor. If you know where to go, nearly all the best ranged trading mechs people bring to QP are out-DPS’d by a solid midrange build, which can start dealing significant damage and returning trades much further away than I think many people are aware.

As long as I have been playing, no matter what tier, fast midrange is king in QP. Clan LPL, particularly, is literally the games most versatile and effective main weapon. One or two ranged mechs are not going to win against this generality alone, especially without team coordination/high average general skill. Midrange mechs have more agency than anything else, and are more forgiving to learn the maps and mechanics of the game in.

Additionally, in the ~3 years I’ve been playing this game the current balance lends itself to close range mechs better than it ever has. Faster the better, especially when you’re playing solo, but running slow brawl used to invariably be a death trap and it isn’t anymore. Again, leveraging a short ranged specialist requires knowledge and skill, and a good dose of coordination, but they stand up well when leveraged properly.

That’s my thoughts for now. I’ll leave with the best general piece of advice I got on the way up - shoot more, and do your best to make sure your trades are more of a robbery. If wanted, there’s dozens of us around at any given time of day to group up with and learn the ropes, if you float around on Discord a bit.

[Cheri Entop]

Vonbach, on 30 April 2023 - 02:51 AM, said:

And get cored 700m from the target.

If the maps were just open plains, out-ranging your opponents would be the #1 tactic with little counterplay against it. Can't deny that. But maps aren't flat and featureless - there is plenty of cover to help you close distance.

[RockmachinE]

Against really slow Assault ERLL snipers you ideally want something that does long range pinpoint to minimise exposure, something that's fast to close in, something with JJs to use terrain and shortcuts and something that has enough armor to take them on once you get there.

The VGL1 is my favorite mech and this is one the most effective counter sniper builds. We mount some Jump Jets, a Big Engine and 3ERPPCs, or one of my favorites 2ERPPC + 1LB10X, its boat loads of fun.

Obviously this is the ideal scenario. Most games won't go like this, this is your basic procedure, adapt according to the current situation on the battlefield.

Start by sending a few PPC volleys towards the whales. Poptart, peek and out rhythm the sniper at long range in order to force him into cover, soften him up, show him he's vulnerable and teach him a lesson. Start closing in. Don't do so directly. If possible go slightly around a flank, use terrain and cover.

If you still have line of sight keep sending PPC volleys to remind him of his bad choice of build, his impending doom and to force him to look away from his main overwatch position. Get on his flank but keep range. As you get to medium range or a sufficient flank, force him to engage you or move away from you. If they start moving in kite them, using JJs and speed, keep taking advantageous positions, use terrain and keep moving away as you're damaging them slowly. Shoot them from angles they can't reach. Poptart a lot! Focus on a side torso and try to weaken them. If they move away, pursue them, again using JJs to gain a favorable position and poptart as you're chipping away at them. When sufficiently weakened move in for the kill and brawl them to shame them. Ideally they are damaged sufficiently at this point so you can finish them off.

Now most rounds do not go like this, by the time you get there the snipers will have moved, are now engaged by someone else or are dead. Sometimes lights help them or you get intercepted. However use parts of this procedure or this entire procedure depending on the situation. You have the upper hand in mobility. You can easily kite them, poptart them and have enough punch to cripple them. Your job is done by forcing them to engage you, by chipping away at them and by having them move their attention on a fast mover and potential threat instead of having a comfortable overwatch position where they can engage at will.

Sometimes they'll get you obviously, but this genuinely works. I prefer the 2xERPPC, 1xLB10X build. The LB perfectly synergyses with the PPCs. It generates virtually no heat and fires twice as fast which allows you to keep fighting and keep sustained fire and damage on the enemy. As your PPCs recharge go for the big pinpoint hit, then keep sustaining that LB fire and seek crits.

Have a good day and get those ERLL Whales, they're less scary then they seem. Make them be afraid of you.

Edited by RockmachinE, 01 May 2023 - 02:08 PM.

[MrTBSC]

ThreeStooges, on 23 April 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

Bet that new clan lbx 60 mech/build is great for the ones who bought it. IS have nothing that can do that or similar.

Fafnir 5E Dual LB 20 + either SRMs or MRMs is about the closest you get (kinda like a heavier scorch), the dreadnaught is about the only Clanassault that can do a triple LBX (direwolf can only do tripple uacs due to less slots, othewise DLB20+ DLB10), and most Clan Omnimechs are rather starved as well as limited in ballistic hardpoints, space and tonnage ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 02 May 2023 - 02:58 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Davegt27, on 01 May 2023 - 10:36 AM, said:

OP try to rotate away from the sniper

then you can work on the closer Mechs and go for the sniper at the end

try not to push into sniper because you will be pushing into closer firing mechs and the sniper at the same time

it also means
try not to push into the open push into cover

HTHs

That works for one but lately its whole teams in circular setups in groups around maps..

[Weeny Machine]

Lockheed_, on 22 April 2023 - 11:59 PM, said:

There's no sniper meta.
The meta is mid range laser vomit and dakka and before the nerfs to snubs it was snubs and SNAC.
Learn to use cover. Get close.

Jup, clearly that's why there is still a good amount of whales with nothing but ERLL and a gauss in the mix or PPC/Gauss etc. Yesterday I had a match were the enemy team had two stealth Thanatos with gauss.

But yes, it is less extreme than say 3 months ago. Nevertheless, the range of ERLL is obscene. Sometimes you leave the starting area and get shot from the other side of the map.

[Widowmaker1981]

Weeny Machine, on 03 May 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

Jup, clearly that's why there is still a good amount of whales with nothing but ERLL and a gauss in the mix or PPC/Gauss etc. Yesterday I had a match were the enemy team had two stealth Thanatos with gauss.

But yes, it is less extreme than say 3 months ago. Nevertheless, the range of ERLL is obscene. Sometimes you leave the starting area and get shot from the other side of the map.

Frequently seeing a couple of long range mech builds in a match doesn't constitute a 'sniper meta'. If it does, then there is also a 'brawling meta' and a 'midrange meta', since there are always a few of those in each match too.

Its also worth noting that, while (some mechs with) ERLLS can technically do damage out to about 2000m, they can be mainly ignored at that range. its tickle damage. At 1500m 2x C-ERLLs does ~7 dmg, over 1.3s - not exactly scary unless you just stand still and take shot after shot after shot.

[Weeny Machine]

Widowmaker1981, on 03 May 2023 - 05:25 AM, said:

Frequently seeing a couple of long range mech builds in a match doesn't constitute a 'sniper meta'. If it does, then there is also a 'brawling meta' and a 'midrange meta', since there are always a few of those in each match too.

Its also worth noting that, while (some mechs with) ERLLS can technically do damage out to about 2000m, they can be mainly ignored at that range. its tickle damage. At 1500m 2x C-ERLLs does ~7 dmg, over 1.3s - not exactly scary unless you just stand still and take shot after shot after shot.

Ok, seeing 3-5 mechs sitting at the fringe of the map and firing from there isn't a hint of a sniper meta. A Dire Whale or Atlas with nothing but ERLL isn't also questionable - also about balance when it comes to using those weapons at close range.

If you subtract light mechs (which have not often much choice but use short range weapons), you don't see many brawlers