39 replies to this topic

[Mark Yore]

After a disappointing few rounds skilling up new mechs I loaded up my Nightstar 10P (with the obligatory 4 RAC2s) for a quick win to make me feel better.

And I started thinking about mechs and builds that only have one correct loadout and set of skills because a) they're quirked that way; and anything else is suboptimal. Not just in a "well it may not be the best option, but let's see if I can have some fun with it" but more like "the holy designers allow only one true path and you're all heathens if you deviate from it".

What's you best mech example?

[Orion_]

Definitely the Thanatos 4s with 3 HPPC and stealth armor.....

With how hard in the paint they went quirking them there are a few Hunchback that have very specific builds to make them work now.

[sycocys]

Orion_, on 16 May 2023 - 03:47 AM, said:

With how hard in the paint they went quirking them there are a few Hunchback that have very specific builds to make them work now.

4G, Grid Iron in particular and the IIC with +1 uac20.

Also several Crabs, well a bunch of IS mechs really are over quirked and pigeonholed into particular builds.

[PocketYoda]

Marauders of all types

[Arnetheus]

As if that's a bad thing, in a game literally with hundreds of variants. Not sure i follow.
Some can have several builds, some are specialised.

Mark Yore, on 16 May 2023 - 03:27 AM, said:

...loaded up my Nightstar 10P (with the obligatory 4 RAC2s) for a quick win to make me feel better.

The irony:
https://grimmechs.is...hname&s=nsr-10p

[Curccu]

sycocys, on 16 May 2023 - 03:55 AM, said:

4G, Grid Iron in particular and the IIC with +1 uac20.

IIC works well with dual LBX and dual gauss.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

Orion_, on 16 May 2023 - 03:47 AM, said:

Definitely the Thanatos 4s with 3 HPPC and stealth armor.....

With how hard in the paint they went quirking them there are a few Hunchback that have very specific builds to make them work now.

I'd have to say the 4s with 4 x LPL and stealth, the +1 LPL HSL quirk make that hard to ignore.

[Heavy Money]

Mark Yore, on 16 May 2023 - 03:27 AM, said:

After a disappointing few rounds skilling up new mechs I loaded up my Nightstar 10P (with the obligatory 4 RAC2s) for a quick win to make me feel better.

And I started thinking about mechs and builds that only have one correct loadout and set of skills because a) they're quirked that way; and anything else is suboptimal. Not just in a "well it may not be the best option, but let's see if I can have some fun with it" but more like "the holy designers allow only one true path and you're all heathens if you deviate from it".

What's you best mech example?

RACs are a trap build. They aren't anywhere near as good as 2UAC2+2UAC5.

Keep in mind that its not necessarily inappropriate for some mechs to just do one thing. For example, the MAD-4L should only be played with 2GR+2ERPPC. But that's not inappropriate because in the lore its a dedicated Gauss+ERPPC sniper (we just need the 2nd ERPPC to make it worthwhile at its tonnage, and don't use the stealth armor.)

And there's also lots of mechs that are quirked towards a specific loadout but still have other good ones. Like the RFL Dao Breaker is quirked with +1 Laser HSL which unlocks 3 loadouts: 4LPL, 4ERML, 5LL. All are good. But it can also still do regular AC5s+LPPCs or AC5+SL or AC10+LPPC loadouts, all of which are still solid.

Generally though, being quirked to only be good at one thing is better than not being good at anything. The Cauldron has generalized a lot of specialized quirks though, and will probably do more.

the check engine light, on 16 May 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

MAD-3R does snacc or AC5 spam, RACs except RACs are honestly not great
MAD-5M does dual LB10X with ML backup, poptart snacc, dual LGauss
MAD-5D is more limited, MRMvomit is basically the only thing approaching "approved by Grimmechs"
MAD-9M is usually MRMs but can do ERLLvomit I guess
Bounty Hunter is snacc, HGauss, ERPPC Gauss sniper

Bounty Hunter is also great with ERLL. Probably its strongest loadout actually.

5M has been used with SRMs for some fast brawl builds in IS only comp since it can run JJs. But not much point to do that in QP when you can bring a summoner instead. I think some people have done well with it in 1v1 event que too using Snubs + SRMs.

Edited by Heavy Money, 16 May 2023 - 12:58 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Quad racs can be devastating ~if~ you are pushing with a group and are not getting focused. But as a poker or in near any other situation its kinda bleh. Racs need their spin up mechanic removed. No rotary cannon ever made has a spin up. They start to shoot immediately.

[Heavy Money]

From MechDB on the NSR-10P

4RAC2 = 10.1/26.2 dps
2UAC2+2UAC5 = 9.3/21.3 dps

At a glance it looks like the RACs are ahead. But this doesn't factor in spin up time or jam time of the RACs. The number for the UACs does factor in their jam chance and duration (including quirks) and double tap. So the UACs are showing their true numbers, but the RACs are showing their perfect numbers not counting spin up or time spent waiting for them to ramp down or unjam. The UACs are significantly ahead on DPS and have less down time to jam. Also there's the big range advantage.

The RACs do have an edge on ammo. 15tons of ammo for the UACs gets ~2,600 dmg worth. For the RACs, its 4725. So you an drop some ammo for DHS on the racs.

[Matt85]

Meep Meep, on 16 May 2023 - 01:22 PM, said:

Racs need their spin up mechanic removed. No rotary cannon ever made has a spin up. They start to shoot immediately.

Always wondered where this idea came from... MWO is not the only game to have it. I actually own a gatling gun and "spin up" is not a thing. If you spin a rotary gun without shooting then it will dump live ammunition out the bottom... in fact that's how you unload them if you no longer wish to shoot but still have rounds in the system. The modern electric/hydraulic guns work in a similar manner.

edit: I just thought of where they got the idea from. An unprepared gun requires the barrels to turn a couple stages (could be 1/4 to 3/4 of a rotation) before a round is ready to fire. This is ONLY done in preparation for the first shot and is typically done by a ground crew before the vehicle leaves. The game is still wrong but this is at least where I think they got the idea from.

Edited by Matt85, 16 May 2023 - 04:57 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Spin up may be unrealistic, but it works fine as a balancing mechanic in many games. For example the spin up on the minigun in Unreal Tournament was a well placed mechanic to differentiate it from other weapons.

The problem with RACs is that they just aren't worth the spinup time compared to other options. They have to spin up, they get no alpha, and then their DPS and heat aren't much better than other sustained damage options (although their range is better than some.)

Personally, I'd give them a massive heat buff. They're already limited in how much they can shoot by their inevitable jamming. They don't also need to heatcap so badly too.

[Gas Guzzler]

the check engine light, on 16 May 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

MAD-3R does snacc or AC5 spam, RACs except RACs are honestly not great
MAD-5M does dual LB10X with ML backup, poptart snacc, dual LGauss
MAD-5D is more limited, MRMvomit is basically the only thing approaching "approved by Grimmechs"
MAD-9M is usually MRMs but can do ERLLvomit I guess
Bounty Hunter is snacc, HGauss, ERPPC Gauss sniper

You can run 5LPL on the 5D reasonably well.

[Mark Yore]

Heavy Money, on 16 May 2023 - 12:57 PM, said:

RACs are a trap build. They aren't anywhere near as good as 2UAC2+2UAC5.

Keep in mind that its not necessarily inappropriate for some mechs to just do one thing. For example, the MAD-4L should only be played with 2GR+2ERPPC. But that's not inappropriate because in the lore its a dedicated Gauss+ERPPC sniper (we just need the 2nd ERPPC to make it worthwhile at its tonnage, and don't use the stealth armor.)

I run left side / right side on the RACs (lots of peeking) and the HSL bonus means they run cooler than the UAC. The other advantage is not having to put skills into Cooldown. Concentrated fire at an enemy means that you can take off a leg or arm before spinning down. So there is a lot of duck and cover, even if I tend to face tank more than I should.

And yes, the MAD-4L is quirked toward a GR +ERPPC sniper. I'm not very good at gauss so I was using it with LBX-10s to give a sniper/brawler mix but I'm gradually getting better - enough to convert it over to this build. This is another mech that really has only one optimal build.

[Heavy Money]

Mark Yore, on 16 May 2023 - 09:44 PM, said:

I run left side / right side on the RACs (lots of peeking) and the HSL bonus means they run cooler than the UAC. The other advantage is not having to put skills into Cooldown. Concentrated fire at an enemy means that you can take off a leg or arm before spinning down. So there is a lot of duck and cover, even if I tend to face tank more than I should.

HSL does not make the RACs cooler, it just means you aren't penalized for firing 4 at once. The UACs are not generating any ghost heat either.

You don't have to put points into cooldown for the UACs either. But you can, which means they can get even further ahead of the RACs on dps.

You can also take off a leg/arm with the UACs but you get to start sooner, and you can choose to keep going.

The UACs are just better. The RACs only come out ahead when in optimal range, and you get to spin up before exposing, and you are shooting within the ramp period from zero heat. So that's only part of the time, and even then they aren't ahead by very much.

[Mark Yore]

Heavy Money, on 16 May 2023 - 03:29 PM, said:

From MechDB on the NSR-10P

4RAC2 = 10.1/26.2 dps
2UAC2+2UAC5 = 9.3/21.3 dps

At a glance it looks like the RACs are ahead. But this doesn't factor in spin up time or jam time of the RACs. The number for the UACs does factor in their jam chance and duration (including quirks) and double tap. So the UACs are showing their true numbers, but the RACs are showing their perfect numbers not counting spin up or time spent waiting for them to ramp down or unjam. The UACs are significantly ahead on DPS and have less down time to jam. Also there's the big range advantage.

The RACs do have an edge on ammo. 15tons of ammo for the UACs gets ~2,600 dmg worth. For the RACs, its 4725. So you an drop some ammo for DHS on the racs.

I find the best way to play is to peek behind a building or wall, use seismic sensor to get an idea of where the enemy is and then start the RAC before exiting cover. If the enemy is already damaged then I'll try and bring all 4 RACs to them, otherwise I'll just concentrate on arms or legs. RACs do have a problem with heat, which is where the 10-Ps HSL+1 helps.

[Mark Yore]

the check engine light, on 16 May 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

MAD-3R does snacc or AC5 spam, RACs except RACs are honestly not great
MAD-5M does dual LB10X with ML backup, poptart snacc, dual LGauss
MAD-5D is more limited, MRMvomit is basically the only thing approaching "approved by Grimmechs"
MAD-9M is usually MRMs but can do ERLLvomit I guess
Bounty Hunter is snacc, HGauss, ERPPC Gauss sniper

The Marauder Legendary (MAD-IIC-DN) quirk for artillery fire is an example of the quirks pushing towards a preferred build. Firing off 5 artillery strikes is hella fun with grouped enemies or long-range attackers.

[Mark Yore]

the check engine light, on 16 May 2023 - 10:13 PM, said:

I am not fond of a push further towards strike spam.

It's expensive compared to every other weapon, but it's a lot of fun. Especially when that side of consumables has been maxed out. I'd love to see it on some of the understrength lights.

[PocketYoda]

Racs are very bad in high ping scenarios as are MRMs, i use neither due to being over 250 ping and the endless weapon jammed issues even if i don't double tap.. ACs might be less damage but i'm still firing while the uacs and racs are jammed.. my opinion.

Edited by PocketYoda, 17 May 2023 - 04:39 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

The correct answer is 42