51 replies to this topic

[Chryckan]

I've seen several forums post talking about how LRMs have been nerfed several times since I last played. But it wasn't until I whipped up a lurmboat and tried it out themselves I experienced just how bad they are these days.

It is nearly impossible to hold a lock, at least without maxing out skills. Not that you'll ever get a lock in the first place as no teammate is skilled enough keep a enemy marked for the several long seconds it takes to get an indirect lock.
And you have to be suicidal to try and get a LOS lock as you have to face tank at least a couple of enemy alphas before you even have a chance to get a lock.

And that's if you ever actually get in range without getting shot to hell as every large las, gauss, pcc and basically any weapon system with a longer range than flamers.
(900m range without skills or quirks? Have they always been that short ranged or have that been nerfed too because I remember them as shooting father)

To be honest I was kind of shocked how bad they now are compared to earlier.

Of course, I've always thought that they were kind of a bad weapon system since any half decent player know how to take cover when they hear "incoming missiles". Like I always said when it comes to lurms; "The first salvo [that hit], their fault. The second salvo and the ones after, your fault.

But at least they used to be fun to use instead of a pain as they are now.


Still, it made me come to a stark realization. All those people whining about LRMs in chat, they must in reality be getting shot by ATMs, cause there are no chance that anyone can hit them that effectively or regularly with lurms anymore.

[Heavy Money]

ATMs are even harder to hit with.

LRMs can still be very effective in a coordinated group, or against very unskilled players. That's the whole issue: if LRMs are changed to be competitive when used by skilled players vs skilled players, then they will be too powerful when its low skill players vs low skill players, or used by coordinated groups.

Things could be improved if changes could be made to how the lockon system works, but they can't without PGI dedicating a proper coder to it. The Cauldron can't make the necessary changes to improve the situation. So LRMs (and lockons in general) get to be crap, or they get to dominate the game. And the first is clearly preferable.

[foamyesque]

You can make LRMs work still, even solo, but the constant march of ECM mechs has made them much more difficult to play except in the circumstance that they keep being nerfed over, which is a NARC + multiple LRM machine situation, at which point they become extremely obnoxious.

What needs to be nerfed are NARCs. Particularly their duration.

Edited by foamyesque, 12 June 2023 - 12:03 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Lrm are strong but situational now and takes some measure of skill or teamwork to use properly.

If you find yourself the target of frequent lrm spam then first off you should be taking at least 60% radar dep so you can quickly break lock and packing at least one ams if possible to mitigate incoming spam.

Missiles still arcing in? Look up to see if a uav is there or behind for a spotting enemy mech.

Can't catch a break no matter what? Specialize in ecm mechs for the ultimate lrm umbrella.

Adapt and overcome!

[Bassault]

Good. We should nerf them further to ensure no one uses them again. Ensure the extinction of sky cancer.

[JediPanther]

Chryckan, on 12 June 2023 - 11:31 AM, said:

I've seen several forums post talking about how LRMs have been nerfed several times since I last played. But it wasn't until I whipped up a lurmboat and tried it out themselves I experienced just how bad they are these days.

It is nearly impossible to hold a lock, at least without maxing out skills. Not that you'll ever get a lock in the first place as no teammate is skilled enough keep a enemy marked for the several long seconds it takes to get an indirect lock.
And you have to be suicidal to try and get a LOS lock as you have to face tank at least a couple of enemy alphas before you even have a chance to get a lock.

And that's if you ever actually get in range without getting shot to hell as every large las, gauss, pcc and basically any weapon system with a longer range than flamers.
(900m range without skills or quirks? Have they always been that short ranged or have that been nerfed too because I remember them as shooting father)

To be honest I was kind of shocked how bad they now are compared to earlier.

Of course, I've always thought that they were kind of a bad weapon system since any half decent player know how to take cover when they hear "incoming missiles". Like I always said when it comes to lurms; "The first salvo [that hit], their fault. The second salvo and the ones after, your fault.

But at least they used to be fun to use instead of a pain as they are now.


Still, it made me come to a stark realization. All those people whining about LRMs in chat, they must in reality be getting shot by ATMs, cause there are no chance that anyone can hit them that effectively or regularly with lurms anymore.

Lrms have been nerfed heavily quite a bit both directly and indirectly. The most common indirect thing is the vast amount of ecm on mechs now. You are right about their range. Their standard range was 1000m before skills for range up to around 1500 or 2000m. now they only start at 900m and with all skills get 1035m. Anemic range when an er ll can go out to 1850m on is depending on range skills. Clan can hit near 2050m.

Other than the last time I did a thread of lrm counters which found 40 counters/ways to avoid lrms you've got ams and radar derp for cheap too on mechs.

The best way to play them now is max sensors and target decay along with max uav skills. Mount the largest amount you can on a mech with 15 minimal and stay by a daka boat. Wait for some thing to get "close" within 989m and bomb it while the gun boat hits it. ALWAYS have bap and some type of up close back up weapon as a fast moving mech can easily flank you. Even a single sml works since you can use it to do some damage. The bap will let you target anything that isn't stealth in cqc letting your daka buddy turn around and alpha it.

[Krucilatoz]

JediPanther, on 12 June 2023 - 01:39 PM, said:

Lrms have been nerfed heavily quite a bit both directly and indirectly. The most common indirect thing is the vast amount of ecm on mechs now. You are right about their range. Their standard range was 1000m before skills for range up to around 1500 or 2000m. now they only start at 900m and with all skills get 1035m. Anemic range when an er ll can go out to 1850m on is depending on range skills. Clan can hit near 2050m.

Other than the last time I did a thread of lrm counters which found 40 counters/ways to avoid lrms you've got ams and radar derp for cheap too on mechs.

The best way to play them now is max sensors and target decay along with max uav skills. Mount the largest amount you can on a mech with 15 minimal and stay by a daka boat. Wait for some thing to get "close" within 989m and bomb it while the gun boat hits it. ALWAYS have bap and some type of up close back up weapon as a fast moving mech can easily flank you. Even a single sml works since you can use it to do some damage. The bap will let you target anything that isn't stealth in cqc letting your daka buddy turn around and alpha it.

That "best way" still lot less than expected result.

I was dropping my lurm-boar (madcat with LRM20A x 4 and 2500+ ammo) on faction-play last weekend. And I dropping with my 3 group mates, those who capable keep lock (BAS laser-sniper, he lock for me when I can't lock).
Our opponent also not very competent, none of them from comp-group that make it to finals.
So, it should be easy right? lurm-spam and got high damage farming.

No. The result,
after all ammo spent, ejected, and I only got 700 - 900 damage. Thats less than 50% efficiency.
Many damage loss from lock-loss (when you got lock, click fire, but suddenly target lock lost mid firing / chain firing).
And all of that take 15minutes++ , more than half match duration.
My dakka-madcat which on second drop did more damage in less than 5ish minutes.

Total damage for FP skirmish victory : 1600 - 1800.
My usual damage was 2500 - 3500 using full dakka / srm-brawler drop-deck.

So yeah, the nerf really hit hard to the point near useless weapon

[Duke Falcon]

I think LRMs are fine - could be better - but not as useless as it first seems. For groups it could be usefull to soften targets.
As a solo player I usually need to risk to much to get locks sometimes. It seems LRMs sometimes better used "dumbfire" than await a lock (what a dumb thing how it works generally but that is off-topic and may cite lots-o-wailing).

Bassault, on 12 June 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

Good. We should nerf them further to ensure no one uses them again. Ensure the extinction of sky cancer.

You're aware that this is - albeit loosely - still a MECHWARRIOR game?
No? Well, I just politely note you then - and everyone else...

[Chryckan]

Heavy Money, on 12 June 2023 - 12:02 PM, said:

ATMs are even harder to hit with.

LRMs can still be very effective in a coordinated group, or against very unskilled players. That's the whole issue: if LRMs are changed to be competitive when used by skilled players vs skilled players, then they will be too powerful when its low skill players vs low skill players, or used by coordinated groups.

Things could be improved if changes could be made to how the lockon system works, but they can't without PGI dedicating a proper coder to it. The Cauldron can't make the necessary changes to improve the situation. So LRMs (and lockons in general) get to be crap, or they get to dominate the game. And the first is clearly preferable.

Kind of figured it was something along those lines. Nerf them until new players can't be deleted from afar so that more new players stay on to play the game. I mean I get it and if that's what's necessary for player retention I guess it has to be done.
Just wish there was someway to actually teach new players how to avoid LRMs instead of removing LRMs to protect them.

Still, kind of concerned that ATMs sucks to since I was planning to get an ATM mech since it is a weapon system I actually have never played before. And I was looking forward to trying something new.
(IS loyalist before so never played clan mechs before.)

Duke Falcon, on 13 June 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

I think LRMs are fine - could be better - but not as useless as it first seems. For groups it could be usefull to soften targets.
As a solo player I usually need to risk to much to get locks sometimes. It seems LRMs sometimes better used "dumbfire" than await a lock (what a dumb thing how it works generally but that is off-topic and may cite lots-o-wailing).

You can dumbfire LRMs and do damage now? Have that always been a thing?
(I hope not cause otherwise I owe a lot of people apologies for blasting them in the back after losing locks.)

Bassault, on 12 June 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

Good. We should nerf them further to ensure no one uses them again. Ensure the extinction of sky cancer.

I'm not much for noob bashing and coming with arrogant and unhelpful comments. But honestly, if you have learnt the fundamentals of MWO playing and played for more than a month yet still think LRMs or missiles in general, is a problem, there is really only one thing to say. Git Gud!

[Duke Falcon]

Quote

You can dumbfire LRMs and do damage now? Have that always been a thing?

Since I play (2021) they work as dumbfire. If you have direct LoS just point the enemy with the crosshair and launch. Would not track target but a few would hit (try within 250 metres). Better than nothing and reward you some "brawling" score (no joke, I gather brawling scores with lurmboats that way).
The only weapon currently unable to dumbfire is streak SRM. All other weapons work as point-n-punch literally just some are dumb-proof (lazors with their scan-to-correct-aiming fire-mode or RACs).

Quote

I'm not much for noob bashing and coming with arrogant and unhelpful comments. But honestly, if you have learnt the fundamentals of MWO playing and played for more than a month yet still think LRMs or missiles in general, is a problem, there is really only one thing to say. Git Gud!

Hehehe Yepp!
Someone once told me that tryhards hate LRMs because soft them and render them "open" to other tryhards. So, literally they hate lurms because they work as they should be: Artillery barrage or fire-support...

[Meep Meep]

Solo lrm is mainly restricted to a few mechs with super quirks for them.

The cat c4 is a good example.

cplt-c4

Stick with the push and shoot what they shoot and don't be afraid to share armor and dumb fire your lrms.

Alternately this fit works well too if you prefer artemis.

cplt-c4

Both do about the same average damage per match but the artemis fit does seem to be a bit more effective vs open components.

With full cool run and heat nodes you can alpha three times before you have to go to chain fire.

[Heavy Money]

Meep Meep, on 13 June 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

Solo lrm is mainly restricted to a few mechs with super quirks for them.

The cat c4 is a good example.

cplt-c4

Stick with the push and shoot what they shoot and don't be afraid to share armor and dumb fire your lrms.

Alternately this fit works well too if you prefer artemis.

cplt-c4

Both do about the same average damage per match but the artemis fit does seem to be a bit more effective vs open components.

With full cool run and heat nodes you can alpha three times before you have to go to chain fire.

Generally Artemis isn't worth it on LRM10 unless you're shooting small targets, and those are difficult to get consistent locks on. 15 is marginal. I suggest no artemis and focus on shooting bigs.

The best IS heavy LRM boat is the WHM-7S, but CPLT-C4 is up there. Also JM6-A.

Edited by Heavy Money, 13 June 2023 - 03:04 PM.

[Kubernetes]

> no teammate is skilled enough keep a enemy marked

I hate this complaint, which is another reason to hate LRMers.

Listen buddy, if I’m at the front line trading with the enemy, I’m not going to be able to hold locks while I’m dodging behind cover or torso twisting to spread damage. I hit R as a matter of habit because I like to know what I’m shooting, but I’m not going to stand out in the open getting cored out so I can maintain your precious locks. If you want dependable locks, bring your own TAG and get up closer where you can actually see the enemy. Or drop with a buddy who likes to Narc. Regardless, nobody is obligated to die for you so you can stay safe and pristine.

[Meep Meep]

Heavy Money, on 13 June 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Generally Artemis isn't worth it on LRM10 unless you're shooting small targets, and those are difficult to get consistent locks on. 15 is marginal. I suggest no artemis and focus on shooting bigs.

The best IS heavy LRM boat is the WHM-7S, but CPLT-C4 is up there. Also JM6-A.

Thats why I put up both. As I said both seem to do about the same overall damage a match for me but I get more kill steals and destroyed components with the artemis build as long as I have los.

The jaeger looks like a different shaped cat with basically the same fit but the warhammer is a bit of a mystery.

What fit were you thinking of for it with lrm?

[Tywren]

Chryckan, on 13 June 2023 - 09:07 AM, said:

Still, kind of concerned that ATMs sucks to since I was planning to get an ATM mech since it is a weapon system I actually have never played before. And I was looking forward to trying something new.

Get a Summoner G, swap out the arms for those from a B variant and load it up with 10 ATM3's, a tag, and 6 tons of ammo.

For best results have your fire groups split 5 and 5 (left side, right side), though putting everything on one trigger and setting chain fire also works. I don't recommend alpha strikes unless it's from surprise, your desperate, or you brought a cooling flush, it's not quite enough heat to shut you down, but any fire following an alpha will put your mech into sleep mode.

Use your tag for fast locks, and play aggressive. If you think of them as Streaks with better range you'll be grabbing 800 - 1000 damage rounds in no time. Just beware of letting people face hug you, PGI nerfed them from TT rules by adding a 90m minimum range, and dropping the close range damage from 3 per missile to 2.5.

[Heavy Money]

Meep Meep, on 13 June 2023 - 09:30 PM, said:

Thats why I put up both. As I said both seem to do about the same overall damage a match for me but I get more kill steals and destroyed components with the artemis build as long as I have los.

The jaeger looks like a different shaped cat with basically the same fit but the warhammer is a bit of a mystery.

What fit were you thinking of for it with lrm?

So the JM6-A is just flat better than the CPLT-C4 except for some CD and JJs.
Same range and velo, -5% spread, but 10% less CD and 5% worse heat than the C4. But none of that matters because its got a double ammo quirk. So it can run the same loadout as the C4 but with a LE instead of XL. Or it can keep the XL and run Artemis while still having more ammo. Or it can just run 4,000 dmg worth of ammo.

4LRM15 + TAG, Probe, LE225.
XL version with Artemis.

(Both of these could of course drop some tubes or ammo for more DHS or engine or backup weapons as people prefer.)

So basically the CPLT-C4 has had its role stolen unless you're going to use jumpjets to poptart LRMs. But then you don't have the tonnage for 4LRM15+ammo anyway, so instead you should do that on the CPLT-C1 with 2LRM20a.

So the Jager is cool, but the real star for IS Heavy LRMing is the WHM-7S because of its giga velocity quirk.

+40% weapon velocity makes a huge difference in actually landing your missiles. Often you fire and then lose lock shortly after. That huge velo can mean that your missiles get there before the lock is lost at all. Or even if it is, the missiles will still splash slow targets (especially if you get close, like 300-400m). What this means in practice is that you can peek, TAG, and fire. And even if you or the target then breaks LOS, you'll still get some damage in. It means you can trade with LRMs unless the enemy is fast and has high radar dep. This is the only mech in the game that can do this. Its effectively a whole different LRM playstyle.

Here's a full boat setup with 3LRM20+Tag+Probe and plenty of ammo. It can go XL (although has to downgrade one launcher to a LRM 15) or drop engine to pick up some backup weapons or a LPPC. Artemis doesn't fit well due to 2 M in the same torso.

Of course, this is just IS we're talking about so far. For Clan, there's the Ebon Jaguar which can be run with LRM80+TAG (or 75 for huge ammo) and is best played like MRMs or even RACs. Its fast and does an incredible amount of DPS. Its can be worth taking return fire to hold locks because it hits so hard with its -25% CD. Crest a ridge, lock and fire, then pull back and you can usually get another volley in before the lock is lost. Also works best played up close, like 300m to make sure those missile streams connect. And with that much CD, its also viable to dumbfire a volley while waiting for the lock, and still be able to fire a proper locked volley before withdrawing or losing lock (but this is only worthwhile up close against big targets.)

I generally prefer the Jag to the NCT-B. The Nova Cat only carries 10 more tubes, but then doesn't have the same speed or hill peak profile or cooldown. The main place it really beats the jag is on the amount of ammo it carries, and its target decay quirk. But the Jag should be playing up close and locking aggressively where that matters less, and its missile will land more. (Also, NEVER run artemis on clan LRMs.)

IMO, these heavy LRM mechs are generally more worthwhile than running assault LRM boats as those need more support. They carry more tubes, but lack the special quirks that the JM6-A, WHM-7S, and EBJ have (although of course the BAS is great when you get to unleash 115+ tubes on someone. But more tubes is no good if you can't land the missiles reliably.)

Edited by Heavy Money, 13 June 2023 - 10:12 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Tywren, on 13 June 2023 - 09:58 PM, said:

Use your tag for fast locks, and play aggressive. If you think of them as Streaks with better range you'll be grabbing 800 - 1000 damage rounds in no time. Just beware of letting people face hug you, PGI nerfed them from TT rules by adding a 90m minimum range, and dropping the close range damage from 3 per missile to 2.5.

Some things:
- TAG doesn't speed up locks, it just makes ECM-shielded mechs targetable. This is for your own TAG, anyway.
- min range on ATMs is 60m, not 90m

[VeeOt Dragon]

tag and Artemis used to effect lock time but they nerfed that out of it. it was the same pass where they added the two firing arcs for LRM.

LRM just takes a whole different skill set than direct fire weapons. i think comp players hate them just because they force them to think instead of just doing the usual meta crap. (also if you get hit by LRM and aren't using an AMS thats your fault and i will gladly rain on you for it)

the Catapult-C4 is my go to for LRM boat but thats is more nostalgia (used to run one in table top and it was the second mech i ever got in MWO). there are a few mediums that make good LRM boats as well, one of the Hunchbacks and there is a Dervish that just screams for them.

[Tywren]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 13 June 2023 - 10:14 PM, said:

Some things:
- TAG doesn't speed up locks, it just makes ECM-shielded mechs targetable. This is for your own TAG, anyway.

Maybe it psychosomatic, but it feels like my missile lock circle retracts faster with tag... regardless, being able to bypass stealth is another good reason to use it. But if you feel you don't need it, by all means, use that ton for a backup laser, or more ammo. God knows I've run the ammo bins dry more than once, and had to become a decoy/bullet sponge for the rest of the team.

Quote

- min range on ATMs is 60m, not 90m

Really? I'd heard they'd given ATM's a balance pass a few months back, but never looked into it, is this what they changed? If so good to know, if not, well I guess I don't know the weapon quite as well as I thought.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Tywren, on 13 June 2023 - 11:06 PM, said:

Maybe it psychosomatic, but it feels like my missile lock circle retracts faster with tag... regardless, being able to bypass stealth is another good reason to use it. But if you feel you don't need it, by all means, use that ton for a backup laser, or more ammo. God knows I've run the ammo bins dry more than once, and had to become a decoy/bullet sponge for the rest of the team.

Might be related to the fact that locks are fastest when you have actual Line of Sight on the target.

Tywren, on 13 June 2023 - 11:06 PM, said:

Really? I'd heard they'd given ATM's a balance pass a few months back, but never looked into it, is this what they changed? If so good to know, if not, well I guess I don't know the weapon quite as well as I thought.

The min range reduction was a recent change, yes.