57 replies to this topic

[Bad0rk]

Hello,

Well I guess I will make this one now that the SR is out, I would like to make a polite request of not going this way. Ever since the Legendaries started pouring out, people keep calling out P2W. You make a mech that is somewhat OP and then you let people buy it. After enough sales pour in you nerf the mech. I mean you "rebalance" it. Rhinos now are the thing, most games are full of them. We all know they will be "rebalanced". I mean if they are not, really why would you bother with most of the other assaults?

My other go to game World of Tanks went this way, which is why I don't really play WOT anymore. I don't mind buying new mechs and have bought a few. I got some of those platinum packs because why not? Support the game and get a mech that is already "rebalanced". SR pack for 70 on the other hand? No and no and no.

[w0qj]

Hey Bad0rk, nice to see you around on the forums

[Bad0rk]

w0qj, on 29 July 2023 - 04:55 AM, said:

Hey Bad0rk, nice to see you around on the forums

I don't usually hang around here unless I feel it is particularly important

[TheCaptainJZ]

I doubt PGI has ever released a mech specifically making it OP for the purpose of generating sales with the deliberate intent to nerf it back later. That's assuming a hidden motive by PGI without solid proof. There's a number of players that bought something only for it to be nerfed, yes, and they feel slighted by this. But not every new mech has been OP and needed nerfed. Some have been weak and been buffed. PGI does want to encourage sales, of course, but most people have traditionally bought mech packs because of nostalgia or because it was a new mech and they couldn't get it with cbills yet. Not because it was expected to be OP. Or at least, I don't think that was the main driver behind most player's purchases in the earlier years. Perhaps it is now since the new mechs are individual variants. (That's actually a good reason for making mech packs with multiple variants rather than a single one.) PGI has always attempted to stay out of P2W territory and for the last 11 years, they've honestly done a reasonably good job.

Everyone ought to know that anything can be nerfed or buffed at any time so it ought to be foolish to buy something because you expect it to be OP and stay that way. The reason new mechs have tended to get nerfed rather than buffed is because they introduced a weapon loadout that was not possible before. The players are way better at finding the best way to exploit the game mechanics to make something OP. PGI is often criticized for "not playing their own game" and testing actual mech performance would be limited with a small sample size in-house, so how would they really know how OP or UP something is going to be? The players are far better at that than the devs are.

The main problem area nowadays is the quirks. I've seen many players say "well I'm going to wait to see what the quirks are before purchasing." This was never supposed to be the case. Quirks were only ever supposed to add a minor perk to a variant to improve it's performance to an average baseline, not drive the meta of the game. I think the main reason why player purchasing decisions have changed to looking for weapon loadouts and quirks is because most of us have been here so long, we have literally hundreds of mechs. There's not much new stuff to look for but that. Players are looking for ways to get an edge in gameplay, or power creep that benefits themselves. Of course, because everyone wants to win.

I think assuming PGI releases mechs to be OP at first and then nerfs them is unsubstantiated and unfair. They aren't in the best position to anticipate how a mech release will turn out--the players are (the Cauldron has the largest influence here). They may be inclined to release things that are likely to be better rather than worse for sales, but they can't know for sure until after the patch how things will really turn out and they gather metrics and hear feedback.

Are there really people out there that keep buying new mechs when they're released because they think it's now going to be the most powerful mech in the game? And they immediately have buyer's remorse if it gets nerfed a month later? Then don't buy anything when it is first released. Or are you just stuck constantly chasing whatever the most powerful mech is because you think you have to be the best player on the field? Sorry, but that's more of a "you" problem. If the mechs are still good, they'll still be there a couple months later.

[sycocys]

In the matches I've played since the patch I didn't find anything new to be overpowered. Although a lot of it may have to do with the event and changes to the MM to try to compensate for the normally lower player counts - reckon I pull into t3 a lot more often than a month or so ago.

The last change that I still disagree with is quirking the Deathwish to give it even more burst damage, and that's a mech I fairly regularly play.

[Bad0rk]

Hey there CaptainJZ. I felt for the longest time the same way you did really. I also feel that this is a RECENT development which is why I am bringing it up now. I am sure someone better at maths could really look into it. I feel like this is a thing that started with the legendaries (I have 3).

I am curious as to how you feel about the Rhino? Personally? You feel like they are properly balanced? How about the Stone Breaker? Do you think nerfs to Scattershot were required?

For the Rhino for me personally it goes beyond the quirks, it is also the placement of the weapons. Hardpoints are just plain better, though it is ALSO the quirks.

Every time new legendaries come out reddit (for example) seems to rise up yet again with the P2W. I mean I am quite open to discussion, it may very well be that it is just me and a few others feel this way?

I am also curious as to if the Rhinoes will be nerfed in the future, what do you think?

[feeWAIVER]

I haven't bought any legendary mechs yet, and I still win.
I don't believe the game is pay to win.

[Nine-Ball]

Both are borderline OP and often change how a match plays out.

Nobody really wants to face a 4x or 5x C/AC10 head on and lose their side torso in two or three shots with full damage out to 540m. IS Brawler mechs are essentially check-mated and even mid-range brawlers will need perfect positioning and timing just to not lose 50 armor points in a single hit. Snipers are their best counter at max range so the damage fall off is immense and they'll only be losing 20 armor points (roughly) every 2.5 seconds.

The only saving grace is their slow speed which means if your lucky the enemy team will be leaving them behind to get swamped in the normal nascar.

[Curccu]

Nine-Ball, on 29 July 2023 - 08:01 AM, said:

Both are borderline OP and often change how a match plays out.

Nobody really wants to face a 4x or 5x C/AC10 head on and lose their side torso in two or three shots with full damage out to 540m. IS Brawler mechs are essentially check-mated and even mid-range brawlers will need perfect positioning and timing just to not lose 50 armor points in a single hit. Snipers are their best counter at max range so the damage fall off is immense and they'll only be losing 20 armor points (roughly) every 2.5 seconds.

The only saving grace is their slow speed which means if your lucky the enemy team will be leaving them behind to get swamped in the normal nascar.

How does this differ from kdk-3?
(Yes KDK-3 cannot have 5 but can have 4 and 2xERPPC)

Edited by Curccu, 29 July 2023 - 08:57 AM.

[CFC Conky]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the CAC-10 hsl gets bumped back to the old value.

As for the SR, I don’t own any yet but from what I’ve seen, the variants in the Collector’s pack, while strong, do not appear to be OP and can be closely replicated by other Clan assault mechs. The outliers, in my opinion, are the -6(S) and Kolos. Of course player skill plays a big role and in the hands of better-than-average players, those two really perform.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Ihlrath]

The SR where you can jam in 2x C-LBX-20s and 6 C-SRM 6s is a bit crazy. But that being said I don't mind if they're a little stronger than other mechs, people are paying 70 bucks to get them and keeping the game going. I haven't bought them because I just suck with assault mechs. But otherwise I don't really mind.

They got Cankles the size of urbies which I find amusing.

[RockmachinE]

MWO doesn't have lot of maneuvering room left, anything that could potentially scare away a decent percentage of the playerbase could be the coup de grace for this game. This is the main issue with the whole OP then NERF process. The game might not recover from a few of these anymore.

The problem with these chassis is they are slowly becoming OP beyond the point of nerfing, simply based on the amount of hardpoints, hardware and the damage outputs they can generate. High mounted points, very good geometry, shield arms etc. The power creep is real and very obvious now in MWO.

14 medium pulse lasers which can basically one shot a medium mech and two shot an atlas without overheating are too much.

6xSRM6 2x LB20X +MASC +JJs, 3 alpha strikes without overheat is brutal.


Watch TTBs video its comical.

Edited by RockmachinE, 29 July 2023 - 09:43 AM.

[SafeScanner]

Ihlrath, on 29 July 2023 - 09:25 AM, said:

The SR where you can jam in 2x C-LBX-20s and 6 C-SRM 6s is a bit crazy. But that being said I don't mind if they're a little stronger than other mechs, people are paying 70 bucks to get them and keeping the game going. I haven't bought them because I just suck with assault mechs. But otherwise I don't really mind.

They got Cankles the size of urbies which I find amusing.

i agree to an extent problem i am seeing the next mechs need to be Bigger and stronger and if it infects the lower teirs the knock on effect might reverse the gains i.e push new players/existing players away
another semi good ish way it convinces people to buy new mech packs

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Yeah uh Koloss is bonkers and I am definitely side eying it. GZ was cheeky as hell. Stone Crusher is a touch over the top but not into obscenity level.

Again, this will bring in dosh because they know what a lot of players ACTUALLY want. Whether these do that for them is up to players' ability but I don't think there's any denying that Koloss takes a matchup between a rough equivalent like Spirit Bear hands down and definitely gives an edge.

Frankly with the latest batch they'll have a hard time convincing anyone to spend on anything that isn't a bonkers Assault, and it actually makes the Scattershot rebalance a bit cheeky too.

Edited by the check engine light, 29 July 2023 - 11:03 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Bad0rk, on 29 July 2023 - 04:40 AM, said:

Hello,

Well I guess I will make this one now that the SR is out, I would like to make a polite request of not going this way. Ever since the Legendaries started pouring out, people keep calling out P2W. You make a mech that is somewhat OP and then you let people buy it. After enough sales pour in you nerf the mech. I mean you "rebalance" it. Rhinos now are the thing, most games are full of them. We all know they will be "rebalanced". I mean if they are not, really why would you bother with most of the other assaults?

My other go to game World of Tanks went this way, which is why I don't really play WOT anymore. I don't mind buying new mechs and have bought a few. I got some of those platinum packs because why not? Support the game and get a mech that is already "rebalanced". SR pack for 70 on the other hand? No and no and no.

there is the stone rhino event going on so you will see them for awhile

[Bud Crue]

I tried raising similar concerns on Outreach in the context of playing a mech like an Illya against these things (these things being many of the SR's that I am seeing dominating play of late) and how it feels almost futile. Not necessarily "OP" but rather that some of these variants/builds make many other variant/build completely redundant across both the Assault and Heavy classes. I was essentially told that, my concern/feeling was misguided.

Meh, I remain convinced that many of the SR variants/builds (most notably, for my posted example the 14MPL build of the SR-6 (with JJs and heavy-like speed) are dominant in a pretty broad swathe of roles regardless of their lack of agility or less than desirable hit boxes. This is not a case of these things having very specific niche builds that are readily countered in the rock/paper/scissors sense of the game that I think has been stressed and striven for in the past. Rather, these things seem dominant in a way that I haven't seen since the days right after the Kodiak-3 was introduced and to a lesser extent the MK-IIs.

At the moment I think of most of the SRs this way (and this is being as pedantic as possible given how many in this community will latch on to minutia): If you own them, and are reasonably competent building them and otherwise playing the game, and your goal is to provide your team with the best shot at winning a match on most maps and in most circumstances, then playing them gives you a better shot at meeting that goal more than many if not most other assaults or heavies in the game. Is any SR OP in all circumstances? No. But in an awful lot of them they sure seem to be dominate in most matches of late and that gives the impression/feeling of PTW for those of use who haven't bought the things.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Lockheed_, on 29 July 2023 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm not happy with the power creep that's happening with new releases. The SR is just OP and the legendaries are also not making that much use of their advertised outlier quirks, instead they are just being better than previous variants. Feels bad.

Seriously Moonwalker is just "I'm you but better" to every other MCII and that's post nerf. Hardpoint inflation uber alles (hi Stone Crusher, and SR variants)

[ImaginaryFireball]

To me, it seems like the problem is the same one that's been around for a while. They just keep putting more and more hardpoints on the mechs that get the lighter and more compact versions of all of the weapons and equipment. A mech that can take twice as many lasers and fit twice as many heat sinks in beside them is going to do twice as much damage.

[Meep Meep]

The balancing factor will be the players themselves. I see lots of gausszillas and SR on the field but very few of them do anything meaningful. A standout with a decent player will pop up every now and then and do 600~1000 damage and a handful of kills but those are the far exception not the rule. Comp play is where these mechs strengths will shine brightest since everyone knows how to play.

[LordNothing]

i see it more as desperately trying to keep the game funded. don't like pay to win, then buy something and they wouldn't have to act so desperately to get funds.

ive been funding like crazy this year to help ensure that new weapons come out. but if they flake on this im going to shut the wallet down for awhile.

seriously i think they need permanent price cuts on all mechpacks that are more than 3 years old, like 25% off. and mechpacks older than 6 years need to be 50% off. so much legacy content you could really sell to new players.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 July 2023 - 01:07 PM.