162 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

A nerf is generally viewed as an attempt at reducing the degree to which a specific weapon performs or the frequency it is fielded.

In patch notes past the devs thoughts were added as brief side commentaries on the purpose of said nerfs. This is not present in the cauldron era.

• Are lurms over-performing? If so using what metric?
  
• Why was velocity the chosen stat and not HP or spread?
  
• Was the intention a direct nerf and not sidegrade? AMS behavior and radar derp are untouched.

Shed clarity on this change.

[MrMadguy]

Of curse it's done to nerf poor Tier 4 players, who use lurms to pad their low dmg in order to complete events at least somehow.

[LordNothing]

because they were hitting sniping mechs shooting from the edge of the map. and these "highly skilled" players complained to the right people. im not naming names, but we all know who it was.

[crazytimes]

I'm pretty sure every lurm change is just because someone enjoys the salty whining it generates from one side or the other.

[JediPanther]

"Lrms that mover faster than 100/m a second must always be nerfed!" -Every comp player ever but mostly d a tuh.

As if lrms weren't already the slowest moving projectile in the game along with the 50 or so direct and indirect counters they have. I'll just keep lrm-ing anyway even if I have to use the dreaded lrm 5 only atlas.

[ImaginaryFireball]

I feel like lowering missile hp would have been better than reducing velocity if the goal was to make AMS more viable.

[Vonbach]

LordNothing, on 19 August 2023 - 12:54 PM, said:

because they were hitting sniping mechs shooting from the edge of the map. and these "highly skilled" players complained to the right people. im not naming names, but we all know who it was.

Cant have those snipers getting shot at can we? LRM range is already half what it should be.

Edited by Vonbach, 19 August 2023 - 04:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

crazytimes, on 19 August 2023 - 01:23 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure every lurm change is just because someone enjoys the salty whining it generates from one side or the other.

as a gun nut if it dont go boom it aint no fun. i think we should screw with both groups and buff all the ballistics.

[LordNothing]

JediPanther, on 19 August 2023 - 01:29 PM, said:

"Lrms that mover faster than 100/m a second must always be nerfed!" -Every comp player ever but mostly d a tuh.

As if lrms weren't already the slowest moving projectile in the game along with the 50 or so direct and indirect counters they have. I'll just keep lrm-ing anyway even if I have to use the dreaded lrm 5 only atlas.

if a "pro player" dies to lerms its because he was bad at positioning. a real pro doesn't die to lerms. stop taking balance suggestions from one trick ponies.

[VeeOt Dragon]

its been this way for some time honestly. a few years back when they added the variable firing arcs (IDFvsDF) they pretty much nerfed everything to do with the weapon system and all equipment that helps them and all other locking weapons. (if you notice they also eliminated the sensor range quirks from the Phoenix Hawks, not that those were LRM mechs in any way) it has been rather obvious over the last few years that most of the Cauldron are in the anti-LRM crowd.
anymore i think LRM need a number of Buffs not Nerfs.

-Increase range to be at least equal to Faction respective ER LLs
-increase values on the targeting assist skill nodes (can't remember the name off hand)
-Increase the locking area just a tad
-and of course return TAG, NARC, and Artemis to what they were before the big nerf.

then again i am one of those odd Fellows that actually like LRM.

i'm sort of glad that others noticed the newest nerf. it felt like they tried to sneak it in.

[Meep Meep]

Lurms are actually quite powerful if you play them in an organized lance or run with the brawlers and fire over their heads. You just need one member willing to be the tag/narc buddy who has to sacrifice some psr so the other three can melt down targets with a hail of missiles. But mainly this nerf is to allow mechs to dodge heavily velocity quirked lrm fire with some degree of success. When you look at the top performing lrm mechs they all have fairly beefy velocity quirks and when you add in the skill tree nodes you can more or less ensure you get most of your salvo to hit as long as you were not halfway across the map. I abused velocity this way with the cat a4 by firing lrm 60 alphas at mechs right over the ridge from me. Even if they instantly lost lock and moved the velocity would still make sure they got whacked by the majority of the alpha.

[VeeOt Dragon]

any weapon system is more effective in a coordinated group. the heavily velocity buffed mechs just made them viable instead of a pain in the rear. oh close range they can work but they are LONG RANGE MISSILES and should be usable at long range. velocity buffs make sure that you can still use them as such without being utterly useless. honestly its not like they are even used all that much unless there is a big damage event. mostly i might see one LRM mech per side on your average non-event match.

also keep in mind that the vast majority of the player base does not drop in coordinated groups.

with another nerf to Velocity it restricts their use to only those mechs with the velocity buffs instead of having them be useful on any mech with missile hard points. already they are pitiful without those buffs.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 19 August 2023 - 06:26 PM.

[JediPanther]

LordNothing, on 19 August 2023 - 05:38 PM, said:

if a "pro player" dies to lerms its because he was bad at positioning. a real pro doesn't die to lerms. stop taking balance suggestions from one trick ponies.

Quit bitching and crying to pgi to keep up the one way balancing of lrms.
1. (all lrms) Missile speed is reduced to 190 m/s (from 210 m/s) - This change affects the Direct fire speed at the same percentage.
2. adr-a Added -7.5% Missile spread in LA,RA
3. PXH-R Removed -10% Missile cooldown
4. gar-prime Removed -10% Missile cooldown from SO8
5. stk-m Removed -10% Missile cooldown
5 lrm nefrs in ONE GOD DAM PATCH. And these are only the ones listed. Going through all the quirks,skill trees and tc buff/nerfs they haven't listed.Where are the GLOBAL NERFS to other weapons?

[-K H A N]

Because of Olga. DAMN YOU OLGA DAAAAMN YOOOOOU!!!!

[Zac Baran]

The "highly skilled" players are not looking for a "balanced and fair game" but a "game that is fun for them".
Their malicious attitude toward LRM does not suggest that they have the fairness or statistical data to write side comments in the patch notes.

LRM has been continuously weakened, both directly and indirectly, and I believe it is in a better position to receive buffs than Nerf,
Examples of weakening include a significant increase in ECM mechs, The existence of a very powerful Radar Deprivation skill and the lower points required to obtain it, AMS Buff, the addition or modification of maps that are unfavorable to LRM, the relative weakness of non-LRM weapons due to their strengthening, and the fact that very unfavorable maps such as Solaris City have not been modified, plus new nerf.

(The "buff" needed for LRM above includes environmental changes that affect LRM, such as adjusting the effect of ECM lock-on time delays, adjusting radar deprivation, and fixing maps where LRM is very disadvantageous. I am not advocating that LRM itself be OP).

They are not crying nerf because the LRM is a powerful weapon, but because it is a hindrance to their build and play style.
If the LRM were truly as powerful a weapon as the "highly skilled" players claim, many Tier 1 players would be using LRM boats.
However, many Tier 5 and 4 players actually use the LRM boats, and not many Tier 1 players use LRM boats (compared to other ENERGY WEAPON and BALLISTIC WEAPON).
On the contrary, Tier 1 players prefer the builds favored by "highly skilled" players. This is strange.

Edited by Zac Baran, 22 August 2023 - 02:35 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

If ECM and radar deprevation wasn't so abundant and abused, LRMS would be be too easy I guess.

To be honest I'm not a fan of LRMS, either in use, or on the receiving end.

Although I do wish they could be viable weapons, I'm not sure anyone would support a change in the mechanic of how to make them work in a balanced way, yet skillful way.

Myself personally, I think making them work like WIreguided TOW missiles would be my personal preference, with range that exceeds all other long range beam, or ballistic weapon.

Example, you fire a volley, and from the instant they launch they are tracking your crosshair all the way to the target, so the player actually has to aim, adjust for distance and terrain, instead of aimbot missiles once locked.

Lockon would require equipment such as a scout with tag, narc, or a C3 slave computer and Range based info sharing, once a lock is established the missiles will self track, but at greatly reduced maneuverability and reduced accuracy.

Anything would be better than the current system we have now.

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 19 August 2023 - 07:31 PM.

[martian]

Spheroid, on 19 August 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

Shed clarity on this change.

Some people wish this game to be an assault GR / ERLL snipefest.

[Runecarver]

Spheroid, on 19 August 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

Shed clarity on this change.

Hitscan lasers that require you to only keep tracking your target for just over a second, and ballistics with enough velocity that you don't have to lead your shots nor account for any bullet drop are clearly much higher skill requiring than a weapon that requires you to similarly track your target, but for 3-8 seconds depending on distance and one that spread all over the target. And particularly these bigger lasers have nearly twice the total range of said missiles.

But mainly its because a few chamberpot members whined loudly about them. Thats why, apparently. Everything else to justify it is just mental gymnastics.

Cyborne Elemental, on 19 August 2023 - 07:27 PM, said:

Anything would be better than the current system we have now.

Their core mechanics are actually fine. It limits indirect and 3rd party locking, and tries to reward direct locking.

You could change their stats to shift them from being a DPS oriented weapon into a really long range LBX burst weapon (or just remove their minimum range and keep their current maximum range), with higher heat costs, longer cooldowns and much more penalizing ghost heat in exchange for tighter spread in both modes, and higher velocity.

On the flip side this also requires ECM and radar deprivation to be toned down significantly. ECM skill nodes need to not increase the sensor range reduction that the base ECM component already provides, and radar deprivation needs toning down to only counter the benefit provided by target decay nodes so that you have more than quarter of a second to finish delivering the in-flight missiles.

Edited by Runecarver, 20 August 2023 - 12:04 AM.

[MrMadguy]

As always, there is only one reason - money. I noticed it back in old times, when LRMs were literally nullified by ECM buff, but buffed back again + old Polar added for one reason only - to sell Archer. And now they just want to sell their Gausszillas. As you might know, slow Assaults are the best targets for LRMs. Ligher 'Mechs are almost immune to LRMs due to slow target tracking speed and enormous spread.

[RockmachinE]

I can't believe there's more LRM nerfs. They were completely useless as it was.

People are taking the piss at this point.

This is precisely why you don't give control over game balance to a small group of players. Go away Cauldron.