162 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

Spheroid, on 20 August 2023 - 08:54 AM, said:

All I heard is that he wants further nerfs, 140 m/s minimum and ideally a trip in the time machine to 5+ years ago with 100 m/s even though the state of the game has radically changed. What was your take?

not in that vid but he has multiple times come out against LRM even being in the game at all. even in the vid he says they should never be used in "high tier" play.

[MrMadguy]

SafeScanner, on 20 August 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

data did his own review explaining the reasons

BS. It's about balancing around extremes. I.e. around assumption, that 'Mech is dedicated LRM boat, fully quirked and skilled around LRMs only. This isn't the case. Middle ground isn't considered. My 'Mechs aren't skilled around LRMs. They don't have LRM quirks either. They're ok as is.

Map design is BS too. Cover is needed not to be protected from LRMs only, but mostly to get closer to snipers. Maps like new Frozen City or River City will NEVER work anyway. Simply because they're designed around just one possible tactic. Snipe duel. It's just impossible to cross dead zone in a middle of such maps.

And overall there are much bigger problems now, than LRMs. Lights, snipers. LRMs are barely used. Sometimes there are just 1-2 LRM 'Mechs in matches.

What I can say, is that LRMs are suppression weapons, that are great counters against guys, who exploit OP Meta. Especially when combined with tags. And this is exact reason, why Meta exploiters hate them. They just can't exploit their OPness without consequences. That's why they ask for nerfs. Should we listen to them? I don't think so. We should stop this zero-counter Meta, not support it.

Edited by MrMadguy, 20 August 2023 - 09:44 AM.

[LordNothing]

JediPanther, on 19 August 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

Quit bitching and crying to pgi to keep up the one way balancing of lrms.
1. (all lrms) Missile speed is reduced to 190 m/s (from 210 m/s) - This change affects the Direct fire speed at the same percentage.
2. adr-a Added -7.5% Missile spread in LA,RA
3. PXH-R Removed -10% Missile cooldown
4. gar-prime Removed -10% Missile cooldown from SO8
5. stk-m Removed -10% Missile cooldown
5 lrm nefrs in ONE GOD DAM PATCH. And these are only the ones listed. Going through all the quirks,skill trees and tc buff/nerfs they haven't listed.Where are the GLOBAL NERFS to other weapons?

whos bitching and crying. the sky should be full of lerms, it is the way. i dont even run them. they suck. they should be made to suck less. then mechwarrior can feel like mechwarrior again. missiles are part of the game. that has always been my stance on the issue.

but im glad we got to this point where we have to accuse the other person of being a ***** because we are our of legit arguing points.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 August 2023 - 09:48 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Clan ECM is also getting nerfed. Not sure why IS ECM is being left alone, but IS ECM is more costly to equip so maybe that's why. Maybe we don't want new/bad players getting extra shafted? Personally I don't see the problem with fast LRMs AND nerfed ECM, but I have situational awareness.

[CFC Conky]

If LRMs are going to get a velocity nerf because, using Data’s logic, slower mechs can’t get out of the way in fast enough which could be arguably frustrating for an inexperienced assault mech driver, perhaps they should also remove the ‘incoming missile’ warning. That would encourage those players to look around to see if any missiles are in the air and where they might be going.

Also, we get a flashing light in the cockpit when we move out of radar contact, would some more obvious form of warning that a player is being painted by enemy radar be appropriate in the game?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[MrMadguy]

Dunno how to explain it. It's just unfair. Some guys say, that "balance" - is when if Lights exist in this game, then they should be as "dangerous", as Assaults, despite of costing much less. So what? Gausses, ER-LLs, ER-PPCs - all of them can be "dangerous". But if I invest my 'Mech's budget into Artemis, BAP, TAG, Narc, equip big launchers and tons of ammo, because LRMs are extremely ammo-ineffective, properly quirk and skill around them - then all of a sudden I shouldn't be as "dangerous", as them? Some guys can be dedicated Gauss/ER-LL/ER-PPC boats and be "dangerous" and I can't be dedicated "dangerous" LRM boat? Unfair. Just unfair.

LRMs are already almost nullified in this game. Indirect damage is already nerfed. Lighter 'Mechs are already almost immune due to slow target tracking speed and enormous spread. Only may be 10% missiles hit them and only when they're stationary. But in most cases they also have ECMs, that require BAP/TAG to be countered. And if they also have radar derp - then they are 200% immune against LRMs. 0 chance to hit. No way to counter.

And yeah. We also have AMS in addition to it. What these guys don't understand, is that AMSes aren't designed to be individual LRM counter. LRMs are about teamwork. They require teamwork to be effective. And they require teamwork to be countered. I saw just recently, how 4xAMS Corsair was counting 100% of my LRM40 plus extra LRMs from other 'Mech. If 3-4 'Mechs have AMSes - they can counter almost all LRMs. Guys just need to equip them. But they don't want. Because, guess what? They don't want to waste their tonnage. They want to spend their 'Mechs' budgets on damage. May be if they're hit by LRMs - then it's their problems? Stop playing dedicated Gauss/ER-LL/ER-PPC boats may be?

I've been playing LRM+support builds recently. Because at least 'Mechs with such builds aren't stomped immediately. Am I OP? No. Guess what? I'm still in Tier 4.

Edited by MrMadguy, 20 August 2023 - 10:19 AM.

[Vonbach]

At this point just remove LRM's from the game and get it over with.
God forbid snipers get shot at.

Edited by Vonbach, 20 August 2023 - 10:38 AM.

[W4R GOD]

Spheroid, on 19 August 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

A nerf is generally viewed as an attempt at reducing the degree to which a specific weapon performs or the frequency it is fielded.

In patch notes past the devs thoughts were added as brief side commentaries on the purpose of said nerfs. This is not present in the cauldron era.

• Are lurms over-performing? If so using what metric?
  
• Why was velocity the chosen stat and not HP or spread?
  
• Was the intention a direct nerf and not sidegrade? AMS behavior and radar derp are untouched.

Shed clarity on this change.

I despise lock on weapons but they were fine. Just whiners getting their way. Would love to hear an explanation as well but doubt it will happen as it will expose the subjectiveness of the Cauldron.

[KingCobra]

Spheroid, on 19 August 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

A nerf is generally viewed as an attempt at reducing the degree to which a specific weapon performs or the frequency it is fielded.

In patch notes past the devs thoughts were added as brief side commentaries on the purpose of said nerfs. This is not present in the cauldron era.

• Are lurms over-performing? If so using what metric?
  
• Why was velocity the chosen stat and not HP or spread?
  
• Was the intention a direct nerf and not sidegrade? AMS behavior and radar derp are untouched.

Shed clarity on this change.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Nerfing LRM's anymore is just a totally insane decision) You all totally don't understand that the Jr Devs PGI staff and the Cauldron are playing their own game within MWO with their own set of unbalanced rules in favor of how they want to play this game.

They do not care what the Player base wants in this game, and they have the power to change things the way they want regardless of what the player base says or wants until this game is shut down in a few years.

This Cauldron needs to go no one ever wanted them to control anything they were not voted in by the player base they were put into their position by PGI so the player base would think they had a say in any decision PGI made which is a joke on the player base of this game as it has been since day 1.

The real player base is just ignored in the forums or anywhere else as to their comments and suggestions are meaningless and they will keep nerfing anything they like in MWO to satisfy their own gameplay types as they see fit. I personally quit believing anything PGI or their cronies have said since season 3.

[Navid A1]

LRM and its auto aim nature, coupled with how shared locks work in this game makes looking at it as a singular system impossible.

It's a whole eco system. ECM, Radar deprivation, LRM velocity, and target decay nodes all affect how LRMs and in general indirect fire perform. And on the side TAG and NARC operation too.

The first LRMageddons we had in this game was when LRMs were 120 m/s velocity. Later on when LRMs were buffed to 160 m/s, it was seen as the end of MWO as we know it. As everything was LRMs and auto aim. Why did that happen even at such low LRM velocities? Simple answer. Radar deprivation was not a thing back then, and ECM was only on a few bad mechs.

What changed that dynamic was the introduction of Radar Deprivation module which put a dent into the whole LRM mechanics relying on holding locks.
Radar deprivation was straight up an OP module (and still is) that was injected into the game with no regard for what effect it will have on the gameplay mechanics.

To "solve" the situation, PGI started to increase base LRM velocity to counter this sudden shift. But this is not an issue that is solvable with small tweak to LRM velocity. Radar deprivation took things to extremes, extremes that you could not even have been rectified with counter modules or skills (like target decay).
We want to avoid going counter extreme on a game mechanic. To for example giving 10 seconds of direct decay time to mechs, or giving LRMs 400 m/s velocity.

We are trying to gradually reduce the extremes of the systems that are tied together like that so that hard counters and hard counter counters are less common. This is not the final tweak. This is the first, and we are trying to work with what we have available to us (which is pretty limited).
This will include tweaks to radar deprivation and other nodes potentially. As well as uplifting some mechs through quirks to put them at a better position for LRMs.


Also please note. With the way this game is designed, LRMs are a team based weapon. They truly shine in a spotter/launcher group to somewhat overpowering degree. We can't ignore that aspect. Trying to make LRMs into a solo weapon by countering all of its requirements and properties just makes it more powerful in its main niche which is based on team play.


Things we can work with are:
Spread, and velocity for LRMs (and even these come with hard coded stuff and unforeseen changes PGI did to their mechanics years ago... for example, missile spread quirks and skills do not affect direct fire due to how quirks were coded in the past)
How effective radar deprivation nodes will be.
How much more target decay nodes add to your radar lock hold.
How long a TAG'd target will keep the "tagged" status after the tag laser is moved away from it.
How much boost stuff like NARC provide.

Things we have to negotiate with PGI to change:
Any ECM stats outside of skill tree nodes: for example: How much ECM slows down your locking time, its jamming bubble size, its base radar range reduction stats, etc.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2023 - 11:18 AM.

[Far Reach]

Are we allowed to have contrary opinions? Because this comment section reeks of zoomer-style gatekeeping.
"Chamberpots" indeed.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Far Reach, on 20 August 2023 - 11:48 AM, said:

Are we allowed to have contrary opinions? Because this comment section reeks of zoomer-style gatekeeping.
"Chamberpots" indeed.

You know what they say about opinions.

[LordNothing]

CFC Conky, on 20 August 2023 - 10:08 AM, said:

If LRMs are going to get a velocity nerf because, using Data’s logic, slower mechs can’t get out of the way in fast enough which could be arguably frustrating for an inexperienced assault mech driver, perhaps they should also remove the ‘incoming missile’ warning. That would encourage those players to look around to see if any missiles are in the air and where they might be going.

Also, we get a flashing light in the cockpit when we move out of radar contact, would some more obvious form of warning that a player is being painted by enemy radar be appropriate in the game?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

bigger mechs can roll the damage better. and frankly taking a fat mech too far into no mans land is not a skillful thing to do. the strongest weight class doesn't need this kind of handholding. what's more why aren't the t4/5 players complaining about this? seems to be more of a hinderance to his edge of the map playstyle than anything the lower tiers have to deal with. in lower tiers you also have players using lerms poorly.

maybe they should do what combat flight sims do and have fast audible beep warnings. one tone for missile lock, one tone for heat, one for crit, etc. its faster and easier to recognize than spoken warnings. you usually get a different warning for lock than you do for missiles actually inbound.

[CFC Conky]

LordNothing, on 20 August 2023 - 12:29 PM, said:

maybe they should do what combat flight sims do and have fast audible beep warnings. one tone for missile lock, one tone for heat, one for crit, etc. its faster and easier to recognize than spoken warnings. you usually get a different warning for lock than you do for missiles actually inbound.

To continue the combat flight sim analogy, LRMs behave like semi-active homing missiles so a radar lock warning would be sufficient since being locked doesn’t always result in missiles inbound.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[MrMadguy]

Problem is - this is pure fighting against windmills. There are much more serious problems with this game. I've stopped playing it, because it's playable only within very narrow time frame. Something between 4 and 6pm. Game is completely unplayable during prime time. Last time, when I was logged in, I tried to complete Beach Party event no matter what and was playing during prime time as result. Game was totally unplayable. There is no reason for me to play such game.

Yeah, LRMs allow me to perform a little bit better on average. But not because they're OP. Mostly because they prevent exposing myself to enemy fire. Current snipe Meta has got out of hand. Once you're out of cover - you lose your ST almost immediately, that causes early deaths with ~100dmg results. And, what is more important, LRMs don't allow me to get out of Tier 4 anyway. If LRMs are so OP, then why I'm not in Tier 1 already? M?

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 20 August 2023 - 10:16 PM, said:

Problem is - this is pure fighting against windmills. There are much more serious problems with this game. I've stopped playing it, because it's playable only within very narrow time frame. Something between 4 and 6pm. Game is completely unplayable during prime time. Last time, when I was logged in, I tried to complete Beach Party event no matter what and was playing during prime time as result. Game was totally unplayable. There is no reason for me to play such game.

Yeah, LRMs allow me to perform a little bit better on average. But not because they're OP. Mostly because they prevent exposing myself to enemy fire. Current snipe Meta has got out of hand. Once you're out of cover - you lose your ST almost immediately, that causes early deaths with ~100dmg results. And, what is more important, LRMs don't allow me to get out of Tier 4 anyway. If LRMs are so OP, then why I'm not in Tier 1 already? M?

Have you thought about adjusting your 'Mechs' loadouts or your play style?

[CFC Conky]

MrMadguy said:

1692598562[/url]' post='6505985']
Problem is - this is pure fighting against windmills. There are much more serious problems with this game. I've stopped playing it, because it's playable only within very narrow time frame. Something between 4 and 6pm. Game is completely unplayable during prime time. Last time, when I was logged in, I tried to complete Beach Party event no matter what and was playing during prime time as result. Game was totally unplayable. There is no reason for me to play such game.

The game is totally unplayable? How? QP, FP, or EQ?

As far as QP goes, not knowing what map/mode will be chosen can be problematic if you end up dropping in a sub-optimal build. Not a game-breaker though.

Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone.

Objectively, MWO, while not perfect, is far from unplayable.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 21 August 2023 - 09:14 AM.

[Tarteso]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

LRM and its auto aim nature, coupled with how shared locks work in this game makes looking at it as a singular system impossible.

It's a whole eco system. ECM, Radar deprivation, LRM velocity, and target decay nodes all affect how LRMs and in general indirect fire perform. And on the side TAG and NARC operation too.

The first LRMageddons we had in this game was when LRMs were 120 m/s velocity. Later on when LRMs were buffed to 160 m/s, it was seen as the end of MWO as we know it. As everything was LRMs and auto aim. Why did that happen even at such low LRM velocities? Simple answer. Radar deprivation was not a thing back then, and ECM was only on a few bad mechs.

What changed that dynamic was the introduction of Radar Deprivation module which put a dent into the whole LRM mechanics relying on holding locks.
Radar deprivation was straight up an OP module (and still is) that was injected into the game with no regard for what effect it will have on the gameplay mechanics.

To "solve" the situation, PGI started to increase base LRM velocity to counter this sudden shift. But this is not an issue that is solvable with small tweak to LRM velocity. Radar deprivation took things to extremes, extremes that you could not even have been rectified with counter modules or skills (like target decay).
We want to avoid going counter extreme on a game mechanic. To for example giving 10 seconds of direct decay time to mechs, or giving LRMs 400 m/s velocity.

We are trying to gradually reduce the extremes of the systems that are tied together like that so that hard counters and hard counter counters are less common. This is not the final tweak. This is the first, and we are trying to work with what we have available to us (which is pretty limited).
This will include tweaks to radar deprivation and other nodes potentially. As well as uplifting some mechs through quirks to put them at a better position for LRMs.


Also please note. With the way this game is designed, LRMs are a team based weapon. They truly shine in a spotter/launcher group to somewhat overpowering degree. We can't ignore that aspect. Trying to make LRMs into a solo weapon by countering all of its requirements and properties just makes it more powerful in its main niche which is based on team play.


Things we can work with are:
Spread, and velocity for LRMs (and even these come with hard coded stuff and unforeseen changes PGI did to their mechanics years ago... for example, missile spread quirks and skills do not affect direct fire due to how quirks were coded in the past)
How effective radar deprivation nodes will be.
How much more target decay nodes add to your radar lock hold.
How long a TAG'd target will keep the "tagged" status after the tag laser is moved away from it.
How much boost stuff like NARC provide.

Things we have to negotiate with PGI to change:
Any ECM stats outside of skill tree nodes: for example: How much ECM slows down your locking time, its jamming bubble size, its base radar range reduction stats, etc.

I acknowledge your comments and thoughts about this, but I have some comments about:

1. LRMageddons were a concern in FP mostly, due to premades. People cry about lurmaggedons in QP when 2-3 mechs out of 24 have/are boating missiles. Such tactics are not an issue, as FP and big group play is mostly dead now. Moreover, after reduction of the lock-on effective reticle area, years ago, for all the guided missile systems, the use of such weapons became more "niche". Even more: because the later, and since the succesful target acquisition and hit of LRMs in the target is actually more a "set of fortunate circumstances", is hilarious to me when I read, from time to time, that LRMs are kind of aimbot. They weren't, aren't, will not be, at all.
So, rebalancing LMRs with an eye (or two) in LRMmageddons is a very big mistake.

2. Rather than several changes, the only needed is how the radar deprivation skill works. I underlined skill, to stress that it cost 0 tons, and it is now easy to max out, but it has a really huge impact on weapon systems costing up to dozens of tons and representing a significant portion of mechs firepower. Without any effective counter.
That said, the fair and most logical move would be the mutual cancellation of RD and target decay skill modules by 1:1 ratio. Right now, any RD semi-skilled mech is mostly immune to guided missile systems (not to mention other anti-missile counters) unless you hold LOS, which is usually impossible due to obstacles unless you get close or brawl distance. In such situation, every ton spent in LRMs is a waste.

3. Most map designs, and particularly map redesigns (removing completely the classic map version) are markedly anti-LRM. Who promoted these changes? Why? You should stop this.

[ThreeStooges]

My lrm atlas is going great. Keep hiding,not moving and letting me lrm you more "snipers."

[foamyesque]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

LRM and its auto aim nature, coupled with how shared locks work in this game makes looking at it as a singular system impossible.

It's a whole eco system. ECM, Radar deprivation, LRM velocity, and target decay nodes all affect how LRMs and in general indirect fire perform. And on the side TAG and NARC operation too.

This is correct, but I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here. The keystone problem with LRMs isn't the missiles themselves. It's NARC.

See, every other method of maintaining a lock for LRMs requires something to be maintaining a line of sight to the target. Could be the launching mech, a teammate, or a UAV, but they have to have eyes on. And if they have eyes on, they can be shot back at, the same counterplay any other weapon system has. On top of which, there's the other counterplay options, like ECM and AMS, and the big loud 'WARNING INCOMING MISSILES' notification.

So if you get hit by LRMs in those circumstances, it's quite likely you could've been shot at by something else. If you're too slow to get back into cover, stop playing a Dire Wolf, I guess.

But NARCs are different. Once a NARC beacon lands, your only counterplay, if there's LRMs flying, is to hide under cover and wait it out, because NARCs do not require any kind of LoS to function. It's boring and irritating gameplay.

So the play here is to nerf NARCs. Reduce the duration, so that NARCers need to expose more often and burn more ammo and so that people who get NARC'd are back in the fight sooner. Decrease the projectile speed/health, to make AMS work more effectively against it. Change the projectile effects to be more noticeable, to increase the odds of someone seeing the NARCing platform.

And that leaves room to make lockon weapons -- LRMs, ATMs, streaks -- stronger in their own inherent rights. In particular there's zero need for a direct-fire velocity nerf for LRMs; if I have a direct fire shot on you I could've hit you with a 2km/s gauss or ERPPC shot or a hitscan frigging laser.


Side note: I've never seen anyone go "LRMs are OP" and then post a video of a solo LRM match. It's always a group and almost always has a NARC machine.