217 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

foamyesque, on 13 September 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Well, first off, the HSL of 3 was unintended and is going to 2 as of the next patch, AIUI.

I mean.. literally all you had to say was this. Its only the ghost heat cap that i was concerned about.

I hadnt really considered the heat cap issues and you're right, its hard to make 3 Blaz / 6 ERML work without shutting down in one alpha - i dont think mech DB accounts for skills, so i think it might just sneak in - stk-7d. (Edit: that was a 2 minute build, so not optimised at all. Its probably better like this stk-7d.

Ive made clan mechs with equivalent laser 'alpha' damage (using the long burn time of HLLs to fire 2 LPLs 0.5s later and have them finish at the same time) and they also get close to 100% in one alpha, and those can be effective despite the drawback of almost 50% more burn time.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 September 2023 - 11:02 AM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

foamyesque, on 13 September 2023 - 10:29 AM, said:

We're talking about a difference of twelve damage. It matters, but it's not worth the compromises. My own 7D from the free event is running twin blazers and six ERMLs and twenty-two DHS, and it still runs very, very hot. Dump and cool is still the play, but being able to do so more often is actually kind of important.

Have you tried single heatsinks? You can cram in 31-32 or so SHS with the same speed (300 engine?) as 22 DHS (though with a LFE instead of STD), and while it runs a tiny bit hotter, the extra heat capacity means you can fire off back-to-back alphas more often.

And I don't know if it even runs hotter with nodes up; I'll need to boot the game up and compare when I get home.

[foamyesque]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 13 September 2023 - 10:55 AM, said:

Have you tried single heatsinks? You can cram in 31-32 or so SHS with the same speed (300 engine?) as 22 DHS (though with a LFE instead of STD), and while it runs a tiny bit hotter, the extra heat capacity means you can fire off back-to-back alphas more often.

And I don't know if it even runs hotter with nodes up; I'll need to boot the game up and compare when I get home.

I've thought about it, but I'm pretty happy with the build as it sits; I always like it when I can make a STD engine effective. With 22 and just two blazers, you can back-to-back alpha, and it's got the sustained cooling to keep either weapon system going effectively forever (though obviously not both in combination). You lose 18 alpha over a triple Blazer, but that's a trade I'll willingly take.

If you want to do something truly stupid you can get 89 laser alpha out of a Crusader, but you probably shouldn't.

[Widowmaker1981]

foamyesque, on 13 September 2023 - 10:29 AM, said:

We're talking about a difference of twelve damage. It matters, but it's not worth the compromises. My own 7D from the free event is running twin blazers and six ERMLs and twenty-two DHS, and it still runs very, very hot. Dump and cool is still the play, but being able to do so more often is actually kind of important.

I dont think that build is possible without excessive armour stripping or running an XL.

stk-7d

You have to be using the LFE350 (im just assuming you arent playing an XL stalker) as there is no other way to fit the loadout in, and i had to strip the arms and legs to a stupid degree to make it fit.

edit: doh, standard engine. Good point, didnt think of that. Wastes the engine cap though, i think ill go with stk-7d

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 September 2023 - 11:22 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Meep Meep, on 13 September 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

IS is always cooler than clan for a similar weapon system. Didn't think I had to highlight it.

I know, but I also think the whole clan can have more heat sink argument is bogus.... but i really need to do more resarch into that but i do know that aside from size clan DHS are exactly the same... I dunno if people are considering quirks that are on the mechs along with the larger double heat sinks on clan mechs I'm willing to be IS gets alot more or much higher heat gen quirks even without the skill tree ,I know the skill tree has higher values for some things on the IS side which That i think IS unfair the skill tree should be the same on both sides.

Edited by KursedVixen, 13 September 2023 - 11:27 AM.

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 11:16 AM, said:

I dont think that build is possible without excessive armour stripping or running an XL.

stk-7d

You have to be using the LFE350 (im just assuming you arent playing an XL stalker) as there is no other way to fit the loadout in, and i had to strip the arms and legs to a stupid degree to make it fit.

edit: doh, standard engine. Good point, didnt think of that. Wastes the engine cap though, i think ill go with stk-7d

Heh, it's funny how habitual swapping to a LFE is, ain't it?

This is the build: https://mwo.nav-alph...77a23b5_STK-7D; I kept it symmetric because of my brainbugs, so one of the CT hardpoints isn't used, but you could go full zombie and swap the Tarcomp with one of the ST ERMLs as well. Or you could even go really big-brain and eat the HSL penalty for firing seven ERMLs and trade the tarcomp out for another laser... Could even break it fairly easily into three WGs to avoid ghost heat at all by stagger-firing them.

Hm.

[Widowmaker1981]

foamyesque, on 13 September 2023 - 11:30 AM, said:

Heh, it's funny how habitual swapping to a LFE is, ain't it?

This is the build: https://mwo.nav-alph...77a23b5_STK-7D; I kept it symmetric because of my brainbugs, so one of the CT hardpoints isn't used, but you could go full zombie and swap the Tarcomp with one of the ST ERMLs as well. Or you could even go really big-brain and eat the HSL penalty for firing seven ERMLs and trade the tarcomp out for another laser... Could even break it fairly easily into three WGs to avoid ghost heat at all by stagger-firing them.

Hm.

Tbh, if i wasnt going to use the high engine cap id just use the 3FB with a couple fewer lasers, because ECM is the most useful single item in the game for PUG play.

[foamyesque]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

but i really need to do more resarch into that but i do know that aside from size clan DHS are exactly the same...

That size matters way, way more than you appear to realize. Clan machines can regularly comfortably carry half again or better cooling than a Sphere machine, because so much of what they have is smaller, lighter, or both than the Sphere equivalent. That means they have the tonnage to load in more sinks, more places they can put sinks (because sphere can't put DHS in the CT or legs), more slots to put them in because clan endo/FF is half the slots of Sphere stuff and Clan XL engines are the same size as Sphere LFEs, more ability to use the crits they have because of the ability to reconfigure omnimech hardpoints, etc.

I have a Supernova that's packing 27 DHS, and I could add more if I had chosen to, but I instead decided to put on four tons of JJ, an AMS system, a targeting computer, and a standard 300 engine for laughs. Can't do that with Sphere tech, I promise you that.

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tbh, if i wasnt going to use the high engine cap id just use the 3FB with a couple fewer lasers, because ECM is the most useful single item in the game for PUG play.

My 3FB -- I like the Stalkers -- is running 2x blazers and 2x large lasers on a LFE300 with 20 DHS, with a couple of ERSLs in the chin because why not. Was aiming to maximize the use of the high arm mounts, and if you time it right the blazers and LLs finish their burns more or less simultaneously without tripping ghost heat.

You gotta be careful though because if you do trip the ghost heat you're gonna melt *real* quick.

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know, but I also think the whole clan can have more heat sink argument is bogus.... but i really need to do more resarch into that but i do know that aside from size clan DHS are exactly the same... I dunno if people are considering quirks that are on the mechs along with the larger double heat sinks on clan mechs I'm willing to be IS gets alot more or much higher heat gen quirks even without the skill tree ,I know the skill tree has higher values for some things on the IS side which That i think IS unfair the skill tree should be the same on both sides.

The only way you're going to get past this 'grass is greener' mentality is to play some IS mechs for a while, imo. Nothing else is going to work, because whatever kills you always 'feels' OP.

i play both sides and dont have a preference really, and about 12 of my top 15 mechs sorted by performance are clan mechs - based on that id say that if either 'side' has an advantage, its clan, not IS. That was based heavily on how strong the C-LPL is though, and I havent played in a couple of months and there might have been adjustments im not aware of.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 September 2023 - 11:56 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 06:35 AM, said:

Binary lasers are significantly colder than Heavy larges, though 13 for binary and 14.5 for heavy large. something the person you quoted kinda missed.

Could you stop repeating that shabby statement?

I have already explained to you the difference between Binary lasers and Clan Heavy Large lasers. Just re-read your own thread that you started two weeks ago: So Why Is It Clan Stuff Is Almost Tt, But Is Stuff Is Much Colder But Higher Damage In Almost All Case

You really can not cherrry-pick just one value (heat), while wilfully ignoring all other stats (weight, number of slots, cooldown, burn time, etc.) that do not suit your agenda.

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know, but I also think the whole clan can have more heat sink argument is bogus.... but i really need to do more resarch into that but i do know that aside from size clan DHS are exactly the same... I dunno if people are considering quirks that are on the mechs along with the larger double heat sinks on clan mechs I'm willing to be IS gets alot more or much higher heat gen quirks even without the skill tree,

Re-read the post that I have just linked.

I explained the difference between IS Double heat sinks and Clan Double Heat Sinks - specifically, the size advantage.

I also mentioned the Clan advantage of having more compact Endosteel chassis and Ferro-fibrous armor.

I also mentioned how those IS armor and structure quirks balance the Clan advantage of more powerful firepower.

And I do not know what "larger double heat sinks on clan mechs" are you talking about.

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know the skill tree has higher values for some things on the IS side which That i think IS unfair the skill tree should be the same on both sides.

Do you remember when you incorrectly stated the Clan Heat Gen skill node value ten times smaller than it really is?

Try something: Compare the difference between IS and Clan if all Heat Gen nodes are unlocked.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know, but I also think the whole clan can have more heat sink argument is bogus....

Why it is a fact clan DHS 2 slots, IS DHS 3 slots... pretty simple math.

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

but i really need to do more resarch into that but i do know that aside from size clan DHS are exactly the same...

Yep, Clan XL is smaller, Clan endo and Ferro are smaller so you can fit MORE of those two slot DHS that are smaller than IS DHS.

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I dunno if people are considering quirks that are on the mechs along with the larger double heat sinks on clan mechs I'm willing to be IS gets alot more or much higher heat gen quirks even without the skill tree.

Yes better Quirks are way to balance this DHS imbalance.

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know the skill tree has higher values for some things on the IS side which That i think IS unfair the skill tree should be the same on both sides.

Why nothing else is same on both sides
Compare
stk-7d VS mad-iic or MAD-IIC
ghr-mj VS HBR-PRIME
I would have added medium and light mechs also but MechDB doesn't want to work atm. maybe I'll add them later.

Can you see the difference in ATO (Alphas to overheat), Sustained DPS and Dissipation

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

I know, but I also think the whole clan can have more heat sink argument is bogus.... but i really need to do more resarch into that

I have done some extremely straightforward research for you.
Consider these two builds, which ive chosen and built to be as equivalent as possible to make the point clear.

mad-iic An 85 ton assault with 2 LPL + 6 ERML, carries 30 double heat sinks, 6.60 heat per second dissipation. Alpha is 62.

stk-7d An 85 ton assault with 3 LPL + 6 ERML, 20 DHS 4.40 heat per second dissipation. Alpha is 63. Note that i had to skimp a bit on armour to make this fit.

If you can honestly look at those two builds and fail to understand how clans get more DHS, it seems like its willful ignorance (which isnt a good look)

Edit: Not saying the Clan mech outclasses the Stalker, either. The STK has some solid advantages like much shorter burn times and faster cooldowns and armour quirks, id say its fairly well balanced, as it should be - but the Clan mech has a huge advantage in cooling, literally 50% faster. That far more than offsets the IS slightly cooler weapons.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 September 2023 - 01:53 PM.

[martian]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

I have done some extremely straightforward research for you.
Consider ...

I am afraid that he will ignore your research just as everything what does not suit him. Soon we will see another "Poor, poor Clans" thread.

[Athom83]

martian, on 13 September 2023 - 08:45 PM, said:

I am afraid that he will ignore your research just as everything what does not suit him. Soon we will see another "Poor, poor Clans" thread.

Pretty much. He'll argue thing like "but muh TT" in terms of nerfing IS and buffing Clan all day if you let him. But in terms of using TT to buff IS, like when I pointed out earlier about RACs (which he especially hates as "OP") only doing half of the DPS they should have in terms of TT stats, he shuts down completely and never responds.

BTW, as an aside RACs are explicitly the weapon to point to when brining up how TT stats don't translate well to a FPS. If we directly translate them they should have 6x the DPS as a baseline AC/5. Considering the AC/5 has 3.57 DPS, this means the RAC/5 should have 21.42 DPS if directly translated. Even considering that facetime weapons need a really big DPS advantage to be even relatively viable, that's waaaaaay too much considering it's lighter than any 10 class weapon besides the clan Ultra 10.

Edited by Athom83, 25 September 2023 - 07:46 AM.

[Curccu]

Athom83, on 25 September 2023 - 07:40 AM, said:

Pretty much. He'll argue thing like "but muh TT" in terms of nerfing IS and buffing Clan all day if you let him. But in terms of using TT to buff IS, like when I pointed out earlier about RACs (which he especially hates as "OP") only doing half of the DPS they should have in terms of TT stats, he shuts down completely and never responds.

BTW, as an aside RACs are explicitly the weapon to point to when brining up how TT stats don't translate well to a FPS. If we directly translate them they should have 6x the DPS as a baseline AC/5. Considering the AC/5 has 3.57 DPS, this means the RAC/5 should have 21.42 DPS if directly translated. Even considering that facetime weapons need a really big DPS advantage to be even relatively viable, that's waaaaaay too much considering it's lighter than any 10 class weapon besides the clan Ultra 10.

What I have understood that RACs jam pretty damn bad in TT?

[Athom83]

Curccu, on 25 September 2023 - 08:16 AM, said:

What I have understood that RACs jam pretty damn bad in TT?

So so. If you fire it in 2 shot mode, like an Ultra 5, then it's the same 3+ roll to not jam as any Ultra AC. Every 2 shots adds another +1 for the jam roll so shooting quad shots (same total shots as 2 Ultra 5s) needs a 4+ to not jam, while the full 6 shots needs a 5+ to not jam. However even if you do jam you still fire all your shots, though some people home brew rules where each shot has its own to jam roll. Then the next turn you can roll to unjam with a gunnery check. The average full 6 shot spread shouldn't jam, but it's still a 40% chance to jam with the full spread so usually you'd make due with the twin or quad shot and save the hex shot for finishers.

Edited by Athom83, 25 September 2023 - 09:36 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Athom83, on 25 September 2023 - 07:40 AM, said:

Pretty much. He'll argue thing like "but muh TT" in terms of nerfing IS and buffing Clan all day if you let him. But in terms of using TT to buff IS, like when I pointed out earlier about RACs (which he especially hates as "OP") only doing half of the DPS they should have in terms of TT stats, he shuts down completely and never responds.

BTW, as an aside RACs are explicitly the weapon to point to when brining up how TT stats don't translate well to a FPS. If we directly translate them they should have 6x the DPS as a baseline AC/5. Considering the AC/5 has 3.57 DPS, this means the RAC/5 should have 21.42 DPS if directly translated. Even considering that facetime weapons need a really big DPS advantage to be even relatively viable, that's waaaaaay too much considering it's lighter than any 10 class weapon besides the clan Ultra 10.

To be fair, the AC5 at 8 tons and 4 slots for the damage output of a single medium laser is a totally sh!t weapon in TT (at least, TT after the introduction of DHS) and has been comparatively buffed quite a bit to make it viable in MWO, so it doesnt really follow that the RAC5 would do 6x the MWO AC5 DPS.