217 replies to this topic

[Vonbach]

pbiggz, on 11 September 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

I don't really care if you like them or not, anyone who is unironically making the argument that the way forward for this game is stagnation (i.e. not adding things/removing what just got added) is not anchored in reality.

They already progressed themselves out of a nice chunk of their player base and I doubt things will get better.

[pbiggz]

Vonbach, on 11 September 2023 - 10:43 PM, said:

They already progressed themselves out of a nice chunk of their player base and I doubt things will get better.

https://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

About 1000 players a day for 3 years. There is no catastrophic decline.

[w0qj]

New mech chassis (Crusader, Hatchetman, and now Stone Rhino)!
New maps!
New weapons!
New mech variants, lots of them!
New Skill Tree!

Just love this doom and gloom that some folks are trying to spin...

[KursedVixen]

w0qj, on 12 September 2023 - 06:17 AM, said:

New mech chassis (Crusader, Hatchetman, and now Stone Rhino)!
New maps!
New weapons!
New mech variants, lots of them!
New Skill Tree!

Just love this doom and gloom that some folks are trying to spin...

yeah wish they'd fix things like people disconnnecting hit registry and other things..

[An6ryMan69]

The new weapons were a good move overall, as were new chassis etc.

Of course they will need balancing based on how they actually perform by the player base en masse.

Right now I would offer that the only one of the three new weapon systems that came out that was pretty much bang on immediately was the BLaser. The HAG clearly needs a nerf and the XPluse needs a buff. All things very much doable, and relatively quickly as well.

[martian]

ThreeStooges, on 11 September 2023 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm just going to keep lrming. No one can stop the lrm atlas! No one!

In Autumn, you can probably expect to see a new Mechpack with the Longbow.



In some respects, the Longbow could be better for running LRMs than your Atlas.

[CFC Conky]

An6ryMan69, on 12 September 2023 - 09:09 AM, said:

The new weapons were a good move overall, as were new chassis etc.

Of course they will need balancing based on how they actually perform by the player base en masse.

Right now I would offer that the only one of the three new weapon systems that came out that was pretty much bang on immediately was the BLaser. The HAG clearly needs a nerf and the XPluse needs a buff. All things very much doable, and relatively quickly as well.

It's interesting, when the new weapons first came out, HAGs and BLasers were the boogeyman, shredding everything in sight. Players must have adapted because mechs don't seem to die as quickly now, basically back to pre-patch levels. Granted, it could be different in the high tiers, but down here in T4-3, the new weapons don't seem to be quite as dangerous as before.

Then again, maybe it's just me...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 12 September 2023 - 12:43 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Too hot, too weak imo.

[w0qj]

Would there be new missile weapon types coming too?
MWO needs to buff up missiles (specifically LRM, ATM, or new missile type?), if the Longbow is to be viable in QP...

~reduced minimum range for LRM or its new missile counterpart?
~Longbow quirk giving a further reduced missile minimum range? (Some had been asking this for the Crusader...)

******Perhaps aiming reticule lockon faster against ECM targets (no TAG/NARC help either).

martian, on 12 September 2023 - 10:01 AM, said:

In Autumn, you can probably expect to see a new Mechpack with the Longbow.



In some respects, the Longbow could be better for running LRMs than your Atlas.

[Widowmaker1981]

Meep Meep, on 11 September 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

Blazers are no worse than clan heavy lasers. Matter of fact thats basically what they are with the normal IS penalty on slot size and weight. And it still only narrows the lasvom gap. Though I suppose there are those who want it overall nerfed not added to.

HAG are certainly a charge up clan ac with gauss velocity but with an 810m range not 600m. The nerf I would like to see if they really want to rein it in is slow the velocity down to clan er ppc or maybe even slower. Part of the reason they are so good is the super high velocity (2500~3000ms depending on quirks and skills) makes leading targets much easier especially with the pellet stream.

Not played yet as ive been away but, from initial theorycrafting, Blazers seem very strong due to the GH cap of 3 - with 6ML thats a theoretical alpha of 84 before ghost heat, significantly higher than the 72 obtainable by clans - at much lower burn time, better damage/heat and IS have stronger quirks. Maybe its balanced by the weight and larger DHS, but im sceptical. The Stalker 7D was already a beast and these buff it significantly.

Without playing it im not going to call it broken, but my initial reaction is that is problematic, since the only thing clans really had going for them over IS was better lasers (granted HAGs might throw a spanner into that statement)

[martian]

PocketYoda, on 13 September 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

Too hot, too weak imo.

What weapon(s) do you consider to be "Too hot, too weak"?

[KursedVixen]

CFC Conky, on 12 September 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

It's interesting, when the new weapons first came out, HAGs and BLasers were the boogeyman, shredding everything in sight. Players must have adapted because mechs don't seem to die as quickly now, basically back to pre-patch levels. Granted, it could be different in the high tiers, but down here in T4-3, the new weapons don't seem to be quite as dangerous as before.

Then again, maybe it's just me...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

honestly i've died more from blazers and x-pulse than Hags... I think the Hags are fine Binary laser needs it's GH bug fixed and X-pulse need to be changed to more closely resemble tabletop (Instead of rapid firing just make them extended range, while giving them damage that doesn't equal an MG.)

Edited by KursedVixen, 13 September 2023 - 06:32 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

Not played yet as ive been away but, from initial theorycrafting, Blazers seem very strong due to the GH cap of 3 - with 6ML thats a theoretical alpha of 84 before ghost heat, significantly higher than the 72 obtainable by clans - at much lower burn time, better damage/heat and IS have stronger quirks. Maybe its balanced by the weight and larger DHS, but im sceptical. The Stalker 7D was already a beast and these buff it significantly.

Without playing it im not going to call it broken, but my initial reaction is that is problematic, since the only thing clans really had going for them over IS was better lasers (granted HAGs might throw a spanner into that statement)

Binary lasers are significantly colder than Heavy larges, though 13 for binary and 14.5 for heavy large. something the person you quoted kinda missed.

Edited by KursedVixen, 13 September 2023 - 06:35 AM.

[martian]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

Not played yet as ive been away but, from initial theorycrafting, Blazers seem very strong due to the GH cap of 3 - with 6ML thats a theoretical alpha of 84 before ghost heat, significantly higher than the 72 obtainable by clans - at much lower burn time, better damage/heat and IS have stronger quirks. Maybe its balanced by the weight and larger DHS, but im sceptical. The Stalker 7D was already a beast and these buff it significantly.

Without playing it im not going to call it broken, but my initial reaction is that is problematic, since the only thing clans really had going for them over IS was better lasers (granted HAGs might throw a spanner into that statement)

You can expect that the upcoming September Game patch will change the stats of those new weapons.

[Meep Meep]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 06:35 AM, said:

Binary lasers are significantly colder than Heavy larges, though 13 for binary and 14.5 for heavy large. something the person you quoted kinda missed.

IS is always cooler than clan for a similar weapon system. Didn't think I had to highlight it.

[RockmachinE]

w0qj, on 12 September 2023 - 06:17 AM, said:

New mech chassis (Crusader, Hatchetman, and now Stone Rhino)!
New maps!
New weapons!
New mech variants, lots of them!
New Skill Tree!

Just love this doom and gloom that some folks are trying to spin...

Its a 10 year old game on life support. We're squeezing the last drops of profitability out of it. How's that for doom and gloom?

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 06:35 AM, said:

Binary lasers are significantly colder than Heavy larges, though 13 for binary and 14.5 for heavy large. something the person you quoted kinda missed.

Thats potentially covered by clan DHS being 2 slot, so they can have a lot more of them. Clan assault laser vomit builds typically have around 10 more DHS than an equivalent IS version.

[CFC Conky]

KursedVixen, on 13 September 2023 - 06:31 AM, said:

honestly i've died more from blazers and x-pulse than Hags... I think the Hags are fine Binary laser needs it's GH bug fixed and X-pulse need to be changed to more closely resemble tabletop (Instead of rapid firing just make them extended range, while giving them damage that doesn't equal an MG.)

I've certainly taken more damage from BLCs than the other new weapons, things will get better once the hsl for the BLCs is fixed. Now that IS laser alphas are closer to Clan levels, one has to be more careful about movement and positioning.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

Not played yet as ive been away but, from initial theorycrafting, Blazers seem very strong due to the GH cap of 3 - with 6ML thats a theoretical alpha of 84 before ghost heat, significantly higher than the 72 obtainable by clans - at much lower burn time, better damage/heat and IS have stronger quirks. Maybe its balanced by the weight and larger DHS, but im sceptical. The Stalker 7D was already a beast and these buff it significantly.

Without playing it im not going to call it broken, but my initial reaction is that is problematic, since the only thing clans really had going for them over IS was better lasers (granted HAGs might throw a spanner into that statement)

Well, first off, the HSL of 3 was unintended and is going to 2 as of the next patch, AIUI.

But secondly, yeah, it basically is balanced by the weight and slots, coupled with the bulkier IS DHS and lesser IS hardpoint flexibility.

Consider the best case scenario, an elbowless Sphere machine. You put a binary in each torso and one in an arm, which allows you to mount an LFE and fully use the slots in those components for DHS, for a total of 6 DHS. Then you put a laser in the head and two more in the CT. Then you can put one more laser in the other arm and fill the rest with DHS, for a grand total of nine, plus whatever you can fit in the engine. Your only remaining slots (4 total) are in the leg, so you can't fit any of the lightening tech, DHSes, or more weaponry in there. This is only 3x Blazer + 4x ERML, which is a 74 alpha. To get the last two lasers in you need to remove a sink, so you're down to 8 DHS plus engine, and you're trying to cool a ~57.5 heat alpha. 18 DHS (10 from an engine, the 8 added) gives a heat capacity of 54, so you can't even fire it without shutting down without skills or quirks. Since each DHS adds only 0.5 heat capacity you need another seven DHS, which is unachievable; a 400-rated engine only allows six, and you're not running that much tonnage with a 400-cap engine anyway.

Even allowing for skills to actually let you fire the thing...

Full heat skills reducing the heat generated by 10.5% to ~51.5 and the heat capacity of the sinks by 15%, to ~62). You're only sinking ~4.4/s (~4/s base, plus 10% from cool run). That means you conclude a burn at ~47 heat of ~62, or ~76% of your heat bar. You can therefore fire again when you have 47 heat capacity available, which is at ~15 heat remaining. So, in between the fastest possible alphas (bar cool shot consumables), you need to sink ~32 heat. At ~4.4/s that will take ~7.3s. And that's the fastest pair of alphas you can do; your sustained alpha rate, where you sink the full 47, is one every 10.7s.

You can add more sinks, but triple binaries plus six ERMLs plus 8 sinks is already a 41t war load, and the only way to get more is to increase your engine size and stuff them into the extra slots, which is an extremely heavy and inefficient way to do it. The 7D Stalker you mention (which doesn't have the optimal hardpoints for this and therefore loses a sink; it can only fit 7 DHS without using engine slots) can run an LFE300 and LFFA and get to 19 DHS total with some armour thinning, or jump to an XL325, remove even more armour and ditch the LFFAA, and get 20 DHS.

But then you're driving an XL Stalker, which isn't a great proposition.

Contra this, you can jam the Clan loadout plus ECM and 24 DHS on a Hellbringer, which can safely fire it with zero skills at all and whose sustained cycle time, again without any skills, is ~9.7s. With skills, that cycle time goes to ~8s.


You're honestly better off not chasing the big alpha number and doing just twin blazers + 6x ERMLs, which is still extremely hot but much more sustainable since you have more crits and tonnage to work with.

Edited by foamyesque, 13 September 2023 - 10:10 AM.

[foamyesque]

the check engine light, on 13 September 2023 - 10:13 AM, said:

Survivability barely matters if you ******* melt 75 percent of what you look at. Dump/hide/cool is already commonplace, this just takes it to a logical extreme.

We're talking about a difference of twelve damage. It matters, but it's not worth the compromises. My own 7D from the free event is running twin blazers and six ERMLs and twenty-two DHS, and it still runs very, very hot. Dump and cool is still the play, but being able to do so more often is actually kind of important.

Edited by foamyesque, 13 September 2023 - 10:33 AM.