33 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

I've noticed that even with the introduction of binary lasers clan stuff is always hotter in some cases exactly equal to tabletop but clan heat systems are not compensating for this at all

Meanwhile All Inner sphere tech is colder than clan tech even with the ERPPC which aside from weight and critical slots are exactly the same (Same with Gauss) in tabletop while in some cases like the binary laser and large laser do more damage than tabletop, while having colder heat.


I seem to recall Clan heat cap being reduced awhile back too

this does not feel like balance at all along with the higher amounts of armor IS mechs get and higher base quirks....

Go ahead and say "Oh but clan get smaller double heat sinks" Yes smaller double heat sinks which aside from being smaller provide no more benefit than the larger IS double heat sinks....

So why can't clan get just a little more heat cap or heat dissipation to compensate for their hotter guns?? just a little not a whole lot... And yes I do know some clan mechs get heat dissipation quirks...BUT ONLY SOME

so give all clan mechs say 6-7% heat dissipation or make Clan double heat sinks dissipate slightly more heat nothing major just a slight change.

For example let's look at the heavy lasers on both sides


BInary Laser Cannon
Damage: 18
Heat: 13
Max Range: 960
Optimium range 480

Clan Heavy Large Laser
Damage: 18
Heat: 14.5
Max Range: 960
Optimum range 480

Now let's compare the ERPPC

ERPPC
Damage:10
Heat: 12
Max Range:1620
Optimum range 810

CERPPC
Damage:10+5
Heat: 14.5
Max Range:1620
Optimum range 810

Notice i ignored cool down duration, weight, critical slots and in the case of the ERPPC velocity...

I'm not asking for more armor I'm just asking for a bit more heat cap or dissipation to compensate slightly the extra heat.

Edited by KursedVixen, 30 August 2023 - 04:26 AM.

[pbiggz]

Clans have efficient generalists. Hotter, less precise, but high damaging and usable in almost any scenario. IS has a wider array of more specific weapons; less effective outside their niches, but more optimized when within them.

This is the way.

Also,

Quote

aside from being smaller

clan double heatsinks are smaller. That IS the benefit. You can fit more of them into fewer slots. You can't really say "aside from all the ways they're better, they're the same!" and expect that to be a good argument.

Clans aren't getting victimized here. Neither is the IS. Anyone who says either thing has an agenda.

[Curccu]

1st to reply your topic:
because we don't have Battlevalue system.
We do not lead group of mechs, just one (FP 4 and event queue 1-4?)
We do not have two/three lances vs Star games.
Because MWO tries to balance two sides, in TT clan is just stupidly OP.

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

I've noticed that even with the introduction of binary lasers clan stuff is always hotter in some cases exactly equal to tabletop but clan heat systems are not compensating for this at all

Meanwhile All Inner sphere tech is colder than clan tech even with the ERPPC which aside from weight and critical slots are exactly the same (Same with Gauss) in tabletop while in some cases like the binary laser and large laser do more damage than tabletop, while having colder heat.


I seem to recall Clan heat cap being reduced awhile back too

this does not feel like balance at all along with the higher amounts of armor IS mechs get and higher base quirks....

Go ahead and say "Oh but clan get smaller double heat sinks" Yes smaller double heat sinks which aside from being smaller provide no more benefit than the larger IS double heat sinks....

So why can't clan get just a little more heat cap or heat dissipation to compensate for their hotter guns?? just a little not a whole lot... And yes I do know some clan mechs get heat dissipation quirks...BUT ONLY SOME

so give all clan mechs say 6-7% heat dissipation or make Clan double heat sinks dissipate slightly more heat nothing major just a slight change.

For example let's look at the heavy lasers on both sides


BInary Laser Cannon
Damage: 18
Heat: 13

Clan Heavy Large Laser
Damage: 18
Heat: 14.5

Now let's compare the ERPPC

ERPPC
Damage:10
Heat: 12

CERPPC
Damage:10+5
Heat: 14.5

Notice i ignored cool down duration, weight, critical slots and in the case of the ERPPC velocity...

I'm not asking for more armor I'm just asking for a bit more heat cap or dissipation to compensate slightly the extra heat.

How about clan XL, Ferro and Endo, DHS those just being superior

WHY?? do you "Notice i ignored cool down duration, weight, critical slots and in the case of the ERPPC velocity..."

You are comparing freakkin' 9 ton 4 slot weapon to 4 ton 3 slot weapon.

This mad-iic is just horrible, slow, hot and small alpha. Build similar IS mech?

Did you calculate DAMAGE PER HEAT for ERPPCs? After you did that, is cERPPC or IS ERPPC hot?

Edited by Curccu, 30 August 2023 - 05:20 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

I've noticed that even with the introduction of binary lasers clan stuff is always hotter in some cases exactly equal to tabletop but clan heat systems are not compensating for this at all

Meanwhile All Inner sphere tech is colder than clan tech even with the ERPPC which aside from weight and critical slots are exactly the same (Same with Gauss) in tabletop while in some cases like the binary laser and large laser do more damage than tabletop, while having colder heat.
I seem to recall Clan heat cap being reduced awhile back too

this does not feel like balance at all along with the higher amounts of armor IS mechs get and higher base quirks....

Have you not noticed that Clan 'Mechs often pack heavier firepower than comparable IS 'Mechs?

So although some IS 'Mechs have armor or structure quirks, Clan 'Mechs' firepower advantage helps those Clan 'Mechs to ablate the IS armor faster.

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

Go ahead and say "Oh but clan get smaller double heat sinks" Yes smaller double heat sinks which aside from being smaller provide no more benefit than the larger IS double heat sinks....

So why can't clan get just a little more heat cap or heat dissipation to compensate for their hotter guns?? just a little not a whole lot... And yes I do know some clan mechs get heat dissipation quirks...BUT ONLY SOME

so give all clan mechs say 6-7% heat dissipation or make Clan double heat sinks dissipate slightly more heat nothing major just a slight change.

Clan Double Heat Sinks are more compact. Thus, you can place those Clan DHS to sections where it would not be possible to insert IS DHS: Center torso, Right leg, Left leg. Depending on the exact loadout, it is often easier to place more Clan DHS in arms.

On top of that you can use the Clan XL engine, enjoy the saved weight advantage and the saved room advantage without the fear of dying on the side torso loss, AND place five Clan DHS in the side torso.

Inner Sphere 'Mech would use the fragile XL engine, possibly die on the side torso loss, AND all that for 3 IS DHS in the side torso.


On top of that, Clan Endosteel and Clan Ferro-fibrous armor both take up only a half the equipment slots (7 slots) that comparable IS technologies (IS ES and IS FF - 14 slots) would need. Thus, you can enjoy additional saved tonnage and additional room for Clan DHS.

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

For example let's look at the heavy lasers on both sides

BInary Laser Cannon
Damage: 18
Heat: 13
Max Range: 960
Optimium range 480
Cooldown: 3,6 sec
Duration: 1,15 sec
Weight: 9 tons
Equipment slots: 4 slots

Clan Heavy Large Laser
Damage: 18
Heat: 14.5
Max Range: 960
Optimum range 480
Cooldown: 5,5
Duration: 1,45 sec
Weight: 4 tons
Equipment slots: 3 slots

I added in bold some stats that I consider to be quite relevant for the comparison between the Clan and IS weapons.

Clan HLL is slightly hotter (by 1,5 points) than the IS Blazer, but Clan HLL weighs less than a half of the Blazer and takes up less room. So you can use those spared 5 tons on your Clan 'Mech for additional Double Heat sinks - especially with the help of those Clan weight saving technologies that I mentioned above.

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

Now let's compare the ERPPC

ERPPC
Damage:10
Heat: 12
Max Range:1620
Optimum range 810
Cooldown: 4 sec
Weight: 7 tons
Equipment slots: 3 slots
Projectile velocity: 1900 m/s


CERPPC
Damage:10+5
Heat: 14.5
Max Range:1620
Optimum range 810
Cooldown: 5 sec
Weight: 6 tons
Equipment slots: 2 slots
Projectile velocity: 1650 m/s

I added in bold some stats that I consider to be quite relevant for the comparison between the Clan and IS weapons.

Clan ER PPC does more damage than IS ER PPC, while also being smaller and lighter - thus also saving room and tonnage for additional Clan DHS, even though Clan ER PPC itself runs slightly hotter.

The Clan ER PPC projectile is slower, but with some skill it is still possible to hit your mark.

KursedVixen, on 30 August 2023 - 04:12 AM, said:

Notice i ignored cool down duration, weight, critical slots and in the case of the ERPPC velocity...

In plain language, you ignored everything that does not suit you agenda.

Almost forgot: MechWarrior Online is not a 1:1 simulation of the desktop BattleTech. In BattleTech, Clan 'Mechs are usually much more powerful than comparable IS 'Mechs in one-on-one combat. In MWO, this would not be possible in the interests of the game viability.

[Baba Yogi]

does this even need to be said at this point? Clans have far better equipment than IS, thats why the stats dont reflect TT values. It was necessery for lore-wise since whole clan invasion stuff was about how Clans got hammered despite the gargantuan gap of skill and equipment compared to IS. You put this on MWO remotely close, all IS mechs will get obsolete over night. Even with the massive buffs, quirks are the main reason IS mechs are competitive. You still cant get over crit space inefficiency of IS DHS, thats why IS stuff is generally cooler than TT.

[Duke Falcon]

Why? Because otherwise noone may play IS and MWO would die. TT values would mean a clan omni would be equal with three IS mechs, a clan mech (non-omni) would roughly equal with two IS mechs. Thats an awfull imbalance, ain't it?
Not to mention some omnis are still power-creeps able to cripple or kill an IS mech with merely 2(!) alphas (IS XL is a deathtrap). Clans and IS now pretty balanced and - while not good lore-wise - that's OK. MWO could be a good mech-simulator even with TT-values but it became an arcade-shooter what needs the current, buggy balance if want to keep alive.
And my opinion mostly based on FP. There the current balance is very relevant! As for QP, well, QP is impossible to be ever balanced even remotely adequate mostly because mixed-tech teams with mixed-skill pilots usually use mixed strategies (sniping + nascar or sniping + yolo). One cannot balance human idiotism...

[foamyesque]

Because Clan space magic is nonsense.

Edited by foamyesque, 30 August 2023 - 09:19 AM.

[crazytimes]

Without even bothering to read anything- because balancing a first person shooter by 1980s turned based tabletop rules would be stupid and absolutely no fun.

[Fookerton]

Every time I see the words "lore" and "tabletop mechanics" my eyes just glaze over. Come off it already. I do wanna address this tho

Quote

Go ahead and say "Oh but clan get smaller double heat sinks" Yes smaller double heat sinks which aside from being smaller provide no more benefit than the larger IS double heat sinks....

Yea... that's a pretty massive advantage. The fact you treat it as offhand as you do makes me doubt your understanding of the actual game mechanics.

[ThreeStooges]

Remember when IS had ZERO quirks when clans drops? The game instantly became clan vs clan. IS mechs had no chance in hell. Also clan advantages:
1. Half weight on nearly every thing.
2. More room for weapons and more dhs.
3. Already maxed ferro armor and endo armor which is must buy.
4. Clan xl no instant side torso death. IS XL you'd never run.
5. Clans easily out range IS.
6. Have the highest alphas in the game.
7. Clan lights can have DOUBLE the alpha of an IS light.

[Ihlrath]

martian, on 30 August 2023 - 05:43 AM, said:

Almost forgot: MechWarrior Online is not a 1:1 simulation of the desktop BattleTech. In BattleTech, Clan 'Mechs are usually much more powerful than comparable IS 'Mechs in one-on-one combat. In MWO, this would not be possible in the interests of the game viability.

MWO isn't even close to a simulation of a simulation run on a generic simulator of BT or MW proper. It's stompy robots with the Mechwarrior name slapped on it to get the attention of us old BT fans.

[pbiggz]

Fookerton, on 30 August 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Yea... that's a pretty massive advantage. The fact you treat it as offhand as you do makes me doubt your understanding of the actual game mechanics.

"aside from all the ways they are different (which he conveniently asks you to ignore), they're actually the same!" is a hell of an argument.

Edited by pbiggz, 30 August 2023 - 07:34 PM.

[foamyesque]

crazytimes, on 30 August 2023 - 01:22 PM, said:

Without even bothering to read anything- because balancing a first person shooter by 1980s turned based tabletop rules would be stupid and absolutely no fun.

Hell, even the tabletop line has spent decades trying to walk back the mistakes of Clantech by this point.

[martian]

Fookerton, on 30 August 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Every time I see the words "lore" and "tabletop mechanics" my eyes just glaze over. Come off it already. I do wanna address this tho

He comes with the tabletop only when it suits his agenda - making the Clan 'Mechs more powerful than the IS ones.

His usual tactic is to cherry-pick one stat that makes Clan 'Mech / weapons / equipment seem weak, while conveniently omitting all other stats of the same item that would show that the Clantech is actually better than the IS one.

Fookerton, on 30 August 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Yea... that's a pretty massive advantage. The fact you treat it as offhand as you do makes me doubt your understanding of the actual game mechanics.

He is always ready to post biased statements whenever it suits his agenda. See above.

[Samziel]

MUH LORE IMMERSION

(Makes for a really bad and unbalanced FPS)

[CFC Conky]

We don’t roll dice in MWO…

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[sycocys]

From my recollection of reading about it, in TT the imbalance toward clans about destroyed the game.

From my recollection of playing MWO, the introduction of clans at near TT while IS was modeled around TT - it about destroyed the game and is the reason we have the goofy quirk system.
Instead of breaking from TT and balancing the tech at the base level, they broke from TT and gave mechs magic abilities.

[Andrewlik]

sycocys, on 31 August 2023 - 03:59 AM, said:

From my recollection of reading about it, in TT the imbalance toward clans about destroyed the game.

From my recollection of playing MWO, the introduction of clans at near TT while IS was modeled around TT - it about destroyed the game and is the reason we have the goofy quirk system.
Instead of breaking from TT and balancing the tech at the base level, they broke from TT and gave mechs magic abilities.

One reason quirks exist is to balance IS vs Clans, which you are right about.
Another reason quirks exist is to differentiate chassis and to accomodate for other balancing factors.
Some mechs have better or worse hitboxes and weapon mounts, which, without quirks, you wouldn't have a reason to use over the chassis with the best mounts and hitboxes for the mobility bracket and build you want.
W/out quirks, why would I use the cataphract 1X over the Marauder 3R in alot of cases? (outside of "I like the cataphract" of course)
Quirks for the latter reason also exist on the Clan side, they just tend to be less pronounced.

[martian]

sycocys, on 31 August 2023 - 03:59 AM, said:

From my recollection of reading about it, in TT the imbalance toward clans about destroyed the game.

It was not so bad, but it is true that it was a serious problem - especially, if you met some power gamer.

FASA / CGL have introduced some formal and informal balancing mechanisms to even things out.

[Storky]

foamyesque, on 30 August 2023 - 09:19 AM, said:

Because Clan space magic is nonsense.

Touching BT community from 2000s I always has been embarrased by people associating themselves with Clans and putting themselves above others