205 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 12:34 AM, said:

What you're missing is that for some people this is fun. Optimizing the game, messing with the configs, having simple graphics.

For me personally simple graphics were always better, the less clutter the better. I wanna shoot mechs not have redundant stuff on my screen. To me this is more fun. As a gamer from the 90s and early 00s, then the primitive graphics allowed you to focus on just action without distractions. Pretty graphics with lots of stuff are just a distraction.

I run default config with only the cockpit glass removed, I'd probably remove the trees and clutter like in this video, but I don't care about MWO enough at this point to do that. I hardly play it since the cauldron started violating the game.

Seriously, actually those "unnecessary" graphics are a means which gives a certain tactical depth, e.g. ECM mechs can blur their outline etc.You are not playing against NPCs after all

Edited by Weeny Machine, 03 September 2023 - 01:39 AM.

[RockmachinE]

Weeny Machine, on 03 September 2023 - 01:36 AM, said:

Seriously, actually those "unnecessary" graphics are a means which gives a certain tactical depth, e.g. ECM mechs can blur their outline etc.You are not playing against NPCs after all

You are using an example that has nothing to do with configs, you can't config out ECM effects.

As for graphical clutter, the only tactical "depth" you're getting out of them is partial visual obscuration which is a completely moot point since you get a big red square around mechs in the first place. Its just a distraction, nothing else. A bunch of trees don't amount to "tactical depth" when you can lock onto targets anyways.

Look at CS, the most popular competitive FPS, graphics have improved over the years, but the maps are always clean, visually streamlined and there's no clutter obscuring line of sight on the maps.

Edited by RockmachinE, 03 September 2023 - 02:08 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 02:06 AM, said:

You are using an example that has nothing to do with configs, you can't config out ECM effects.

As for graphical clutter, the only tactical "depth" you're getting out of them is partial visual obscuration which is a completely moot point since you get a big red square around mechs in the first place. Its just a distraction, nothing else. A bunch of trees don't amount to "tactical depth" when you can lock onto targets anyways.

Look at CS, the most popular competitive FPS, graphics have improved over the years, but the maps are always clean, visually streamlined and there's no clutter obscuring line of sight on the maps.

Nothing to do with config? If the one config shows those graphics and restricts vision, the other doesn't, it damn well has something to do with config

[Horseman]

Weeny Machine, on 03 September 2023 - 03:58 AM, said:

Nothing to do with config? If the one config shows those graphics and restricts vision, the other doesn't, it damn well has something to do with config

And as GeeRam noted, it is something that at least some of the comp players would prefer to be blocked entirely, but if PGI is unwilling or unable to do so then publicizing it ensures a level playing field across everyone.

[Cyborne Elemental]

PGI lost their person that had the experience to code Cryengine-3 to block out such settings from being changed from what I understand. (could be wrong about that)

Editing xml and scripts are one thing, programming core engine code is another beast in itself.

Its probably why PGI started using the Unreal engine to move forward with future games, as there are tons of coders that know the engine, as well as having a huge community of resourceful programmers and developers building modern games with Unreal 4/5.

As far as those settings go, yeah its not something that should be allowed.
It should be considered cheating.

But since PGI can't really do anything about blocking those commands, it will be abused.

Same thing about using any form of anti-cheat, If there is no effort to keep gameplay on a level playing field with something as simple as "Easy Anti-Cheat", it is inevitable that some people will abuse it because of the absence of any countermeasure.

[RockmachinE]

Weeny Machine, on 03 September 2023 - 03:58 AM, said:

Nothing to do with config? If the one config shows those graphics and restricts vision, the other doesn't, it damn well has something to do with config

You specifically used the example of ECM mechs lock box "flickering". This can not be changed with configs. You fail on your first argument completely.

And yes, its fun to mod configs and make a clean looking game. Just not for you. I applaud people that do it.

[Der Geisterbaer]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

You specifically used the example of ECM mechs lock box "flickering".

Well "acshually" ... he specifically spoke of an ECM mech being able to (further) blurring its outline (a.k.a. silhouette) by moving behind the "visual clutter" (as you prefer to call obstacles like trees and vegetation.

You're strawmanning him there and combine it with a highly bogus counter claim of yours: His basic premise of an ECM mech typically means that you actually cannot aquire a target lock and thus the mech can only be seen against the background and is additionally hidden / obfuscated by vegetation thus making it harder to spot the mech and / or properly aiming at it. The very vegetation that you - by your own words - like to remove, thereby making it easier for you to spot and shoot at ECM protected mechs, Thus ...

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

This can not be changed with configs.

... this is very much about an ability that can be changed via config.

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

You fail on your first argument completely.

No, you fail at reading comprehension and by strawmanning and fundamentally altering the premise to a state that is typically not the case with an ECM protected mech you try to claim that he's wrong => The only "failure" here is yours in your attempt to justify a user config modification that bypasses an intended level of object obfuscation that would normally represent a somewhat "realistic" limitation for Eyeball MK I detection / aiming.

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

And yes, its fun to mod configs and make a clean looking game. Just not for you. I applaud people that do it.

Technically, you thereby applaud cheaters for cheating. ~shrug~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 03 September 2023 - 11:18 AM.

[RockmachinE]

Der Geisterbaer, on 03 September 2023 - 09:39 AM, said:

Technically, you thereby applaud cheaters for cheating. ~shrug~

Editing config files is cheating now? [Redacted].I come from a lineage of gamers where editing configs was normal and most serious players did it, to me this is a normal thing.[Redacted]

[Weeny Machine]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

You specifically used the example of ECM mechs lock box "flickering". This can not be changed with configs. You fail on your first argument completely.

And yes, its fun to mod configs and make a clean looking game. Just not for you. I applaud people that do it.

Jesus...a mech stands behind vegetation.
If you have graphics on, it is harder to see. This holds especially true for ECM mechs
If you remove the vegetation graphics because of your settings, you have a huge advantage

Is that so hard to get?

My argument didn't fail. Someone failed at something else

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

Editing config files is cheating now? Sweet child...I come from a lineage of gamers where editing configs was normal and most serious players did it, to me this is a normal thing.[Redacted]

[Redacted]

Edited by GM Patience, 06 September 2023 - 10:37 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

Editing config files is cheating now?

When you remove a visual obstruction that is supposed to be there via editing a config file the act of editing said config file indeed becomes an act of cheating.

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

[Redacted].

[Redacted]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

I come from a lineage of gamers where editing configs was normal and most serious players did it, to me this is a normal thing.

... I come from a "lineage of people" that give zero ***** of what "lineage" you claim for yourself and its alleged "normality" when addressing your fallacious and intellectually dishonest line of argumentation. I also come from a "lineage of gamers" that either actually played games the way that they were intended to play or - when choosing to alter games (which I regularly do) - actually admits to cheating.

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'm sorry this is too much for you to bear.

[Redacted] It takes zero skin off my back that you feel the urge to rig the game to get an competitive edge over others while deluding yourself into believing that you are not cheating there ... but interestingly enough it does seem to frustrate you being called a cheater in a fact based discusssion where you don't have any real counter arguments. I guess I should be the one being "sorry" for you that you can't bear the reality of your actions ... but I'm not a nice person, so I'm not sorry for you at all and instead point my finger and laugh at you.

[Redacted]

RockmachinE, on 03 September 2023 - 10:34 AM, said:

and are ideologically too rigid to open a file and edit a string of text to improve gameplay.

There's no "ideology" or rather "morality" (if you knew the proper words to be used in this context) involved on my end and certainly no rigidity in either regard. I'll gladly make alterations to games whenever it pleases me but I'm not deluding myself into believing that this is anything other than cheating ... which is fine in single player environment but becomes progressively problematic (not just on a "moral" level) whenever there is a competitive context of playing "against" others.

[Redacted]

Edited by GM Patience, 06 September 2023 - 10:42 AM.
personal attacks

[Meep Meep]

Ok to toss a bit of water on this growing fire I've ran through every active map and so far its only two that are standouts. Forest colony classic and viridian bog. Forest classic becomes a moonscape because nearly all the tree and vegetation are non collision. Bog is mainly just the ground cover and the biggest offender are the lily pads in the low areas are completely gone. Every other map is more or less unchanged past vegetation even normal low settings removes. All those little trees everyone hates on maps like hellbore outpost are still there. The water removal is a non issue unless you liked hiding in the deeper spots in a locust or flea. That one does hurt a little bit but for the majority its meh.

[Bud Crue]

Geezus. Late to the party on this in more ways than one, but many of the folks that I play the game with have often complained about perceived "cheating" by these folks specifically (Geeram gets called out with some frequency, and others as well). It makes a lot of sense now, how, a lot of times, on some maps (especially Emerald and Forest) where one or more mechs that none of us can see behind (visually) impenetrable vegetation (from our perspective) is shooting us with direct fire weapons but we can't see them despite looking right where the weapons fire is coming from.

How long has this been a known exploit?

This may not be cheating in the sense of the TOS or COC, but its lame as F***. The worst part is, that when I share this BS with those I play with, at least some will feel obligated to make the modifications presented in the video just so they can be as "competitive". People speak of power creep, or nerfing, or CW sucking, or meta builds, or whatever as a reason(s) why they leave this game, but this kind of exploitive crap has got to be up there for a lot of folks who get trashed on match after match wholly unaware that at least some of the "elites" of the game are using such methods.

[Meep Meep]

Bud Crue, on 03 September 2023 - 11:54 AM, said:

How long has this been a known exploit?

For as long as there has been config file mods which is basically the entire life of the game. You simply experiment with different cryengine cvars and see what works and what doesn't. Mr Vaad has a nice collection of them in his mwo tweaker pinned thread that also can remove fog and other effects completely(or make them better looking too) and thats been public for ages. He does have a disclaimer that his tweaks are only meant for beautification but he can't stop you from using them as you wish.

Edited by Meep Meep, 03 September 2023 - 01:35 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Meep Meep, on 03 September 2023 - 01:33 PM, said:

For as long as there has been config file mods which is basically the entire life of the game. You simply experiment with different cryengine cvars and see what works and what doesn't. Mr Vaad has a nice collection of them in his mwo tweaker pinned thread that also can remove fog and other effects completely(or make them better looking too) and thats been public for ages. He does have a disclaimer that his tweaks are only meant for beautification but he can't stop you from using them as you wish.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It strikes me as odd how for all the times in the past decade some 99%er comes in here to talk down to the masses about a need for us to "gitgud" or "just shoot the light" or what have you, and yet, never once have I seen any of them add: "oh and by the way, as part of that process,you ought to modify your .config files in the following manner in order to optimize your farming experience". No, instead they talk about how easy this game is with proper knowledge of the maps and situational awareness, and just forget to mention that their situational awareness is dependent on this sort of exploit, and that their knowledge of the map is based on knowing lines of sight where they can see you but you can't see them.

What utter hypocrisy and BS.

Some of the above commentators make it clear that they have known about this and used it for significant time and are for lack of a better word, proud of it. And yet, people used to wring their hands over a fear that PGI might consider sound mods to be "cheating" under the TOS, and in another instance PGI did in fact take action against folks who tried to make a mod to help those with color blindness. But here we have a modification to files that has a direct benefit to the player, akin to a sort of limited form of wall hacking, that is not only just fine in PGI's eyes (and obviously at least some players), but as far as I can tell no one has ever publicly acknowledged until now. Lame.

[Meep Meep]

Bud Crue, on 03 September 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It strikes me as odd how for all the times in the past decade some 99%er comes in here to talk down to the masses about a need for us to "gitgud" or "just shoot the light" or what have you, and yet, never once have I seen any of them add: "oh and by the way, as part of that process,you ought to modify your .config files in the following manner in order to optimize your farming experience". No, instead they talk about how easy this game is with proper knowledge of the maps and situational awareness, and just forget to mention that their situational awareness is dependent on this sort of exploit, and that their knowledge of the map is based on knowing lines of sight where they can see you but you can't see them.

What utter hypocrisy and BS.

Some of the above commentators make it clear that they have known about this and used it for significant time and are for lack of a better word, proud of it. And yet, people used to wring their hands over a fear that PGI might consider sound mods to be "cheating" under the TOS, and in another instance PGI did in fact take action against folks who tried to make a mod to help those with color blindness. But here we have a modification to files that has a direct benefit to the player, akin to a sort of limited form of wall hacking, that is not only just fine in PGI's eyes (and obviously at least some players), but as far as I can tell no one has ever publicly acknowledged until now. Lame.

I mean its not like mwo is the only pvp game where you can modify your user configs to your liking beyond what is allowed in the normal in game settings and most of the relevant ones being complained about have been public knowledge in the pinned thread for a long while. However most other pvp games have an anti cheat so that if you set them outside a certain range or use forbidden cvars you get flagged and ejected. Have no idea if an anti cheat exists that can be used with mwo's spaghetti code but I think that removing certain cvars from working in the config file is possible. But that takes effort on someones part and that effort costs time and money that could be spent on other more profitable tasks on other games they are managing soooo... But the dev that is working on this game(Tyios) is aware so if something can be done it will. Eventually. But so far pgi and the new owners have been reluctant to allocate time and budget on stuff like this if its more than text edits for balance or something that will generate cash like legendaries.

Edited by Meep Meep, 03 September 2023 - 02:09 PM.

[-K H A N]

If you cant edit it in an in game menu it shouldn't be allowed. Having said that I don't care if people do it or not.

[Bud Crue]

-K H A N, on 03 September 2023 - 02:46 PM, said:

If you cant edit it in an in game menu it shouldn't be allowed. Having said that I don't care if people do it or not.

Personally, I don't care either, I certainly won't use it. But one of the biggest complaints of this game over the years is the NPE. Lets think about that for a second. Here we find that for who knows how long, at least some ("elite") players have been using an exploit to farm scrubs wherein they can see said scrubs but the scrubs cannot see them, all the while spouting off about how the rest of us need to "git gud" without sharing their little exploit advantage. Is there any wonder why new players don't last, and many, many old casuals leave this game when that sort of thing is apparently common place for those in the know? PGI apparently knew this was a thing, but I don't recall an NGNG video or anything in the official Wiki recommending that players modify their .config files for the sake of parity. I wonder why? Must be one of those crazy oversights.

Edited by Bud Crue, 03 September 2023 - 03:06 PM.

[DoucheNugg3t]

what the hell is this crap, just play the freakin game, cheaters

[Meep Meep]

Well the simplest fix would be remove forest classic from the rotation as thats the only map that the setting gives a massive advantage. Bog is mainly the lily pads and the rest of the maps only have cosmetic stuff removed that low settings already remove. It's the config as a whole that garners a comp advantage because you can force the game to render all objects at all ranges at max detail and tone down blinding effects like hit effect spam on cockpits or glare from post processing.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 03 September 2023 - 03:33 PM, said:

Well the simplest fix would be remove forest classic from the rotation as thats the only map that the setting gives a massive advantage.

That'd make me sad I don't play with .cfg edits, but FCC is one of my favourite maps and one of the ones I do best on for whatever reason. Ditto FCS.