149 replies to this topic

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 05:19 AM, said:

Argument -
Rebuttal - The IS Clans did not recognize the authority of, no longer cared about and voted to no longer communicate with, the GC/Homeworld Clans which is why they formed their own Council of Six Clans. WoR confirms this.

Not recognizing the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans is no excuse, as the former Clan Wolverine found out ... before it was Annihilated on the orders of the Grand Council of the Clans. (The Clans, p. 13, the left / right column)

The matter of "caring" or "not caring" is irrelevant for the process of Abjuration (The Clans, p. 46, the right column), as is the so-called "Coucil of Six" that is not a part of the Clan system as established by Nicholas Kerensky. (The Clans, p. 53, the left column)

You cannot have it both ways, pretending that you are a Clan, while simultaneously breaking the rules established by the Founder of the Clans.

A Clan is no longer a Clan, if the supreme Clan body established by Nicholas Kerensky himself (i.e. the Founder of the Clans) (The Clans, p. 9-10) to guide the Clans (The Clans, p. 53, the left column) has Abjured such Clan clearly and unambiguously.

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 05:19 AM, said:

Argument -
Rebuttal - You say did not dare, I say did not bother. There are 3 things to consider:
1. Clan Wolf was already making the exodus to the Inner Sphere when the "Abjuration" was declared, which WoR confirms [a].

The ownership of Inner Sphere holdings is irrelevant for the Abjuration. (The Clans, p. 46 the right column, p. 100 the right column)

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 05:19 AM, said:

2. The Abjuration was not done properly which WoR confirms [b]

Could you tell me the exact page and paragraph, so I can read it for myself, please?

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 05:19 AM, said:

3. As aforementioned, Clan Wolf no longer recognized the authority of the GC [c].

Irrelevant for the Abjuration. (The Clans, p. 13 the right column)

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 05:19 AM, said:

Additionally, I don't recall a single instance of an Abjuration being overturned in any fashion, either politically or through combat. I haven't read the books in a very long time so maybe you can refute that. I'll wait.

Maybe you want to make a have a full on debate about the issue. If so, I suggest a different thread so we don't bog up this one that's for the DLC announcement.

The proper way of contesting the decision of the Grand Council of the Clans is to demand a Trial of Refusal. (The Clans, p. 44 the left / right column, p. 46 the right column) Ulric Kerensky did it a generation ago. Any other course of action is irrelevant regarding the Abjuration and essentially equals to accepting the judgment of the Grand Coucil of the Clans.

Also, the former Clan Wolf had Warriors in the Homeworlds available for such Trial ...

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Not recognizing the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans is no excuse, as the former Clan Wolverine found out ... before it was Annihilated on the orders of the Grand Council of the Clans. (The Clans, p. 13, the left / right column)


The matter of "caring" or "not caring" is irrelevant for the process of Abjuration (The Clans, p. 46, the right column), as is the so-called "Coucil of Six" that is not a part of the Clan system as established by Nicholas Kerensky. (The Clans, p. 53, the left column)

You cannot have it both ways, pretending that you are a Clan, while simultaneously breaking the rules established by the Founder of the Clans.

A Clan is no longer a Clan, if the supreme Clan body established by Nicholas Kerensky himself (i.e. the Founder of the Clans) (The Clans, p. 9-10) to guide the Clans (The Clans, p. 53, the left column) has Abjured such Clan clearly and unambiguously.

Each Clan is independent of each other and only agree on consensus for certain things. Each Clan conducts its affairs how it sees fit whether that goes against the norm or it bends or breaks some of the established rules.

I'll give you some examples.

1. The Jade Falcons illegal and unsanctioned Absorption of Clan Wolf during the Refusal War where they turned a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. I debated this point in a thread years ago; I can link you if you would like.

2. The Goliath Scorpions unsanctioned Absorption of the Ice Hellions. WoR pg.127, 129, 146

3. Clan Jade Falcon allowing a freeborn to compete for a Bloodname.

There are others but I just can't remember them at the moment.

You said something is not Clan if it was not part of the Clan system established by Nicholas Kerensky? That's incorrect. In TCWoK it states:

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Most Clans allow a potential warrior a single Trial of Position. This practice, however, is a custom rather than one of Nicholas Kerensky's dictates.

I'll give another example:

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Nicholas Kerensky had begun a mandatory marriage policy, requiring all members of the lower castes to be wed by the time they turned twenty-five. Those that were not were assigned a mate by their caste. Over time this has changed, as Clan society has changed.

- Era Digest - Golden Century pg. 4

Additionally:

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The founders were not born of the Clans. Their culture was heavily influenced by those they grew up and lived in. As their lineages became the ruling class, they shaped their society based on those individuals, both in the Clans as a whole and each individual Clan. The lesser castes learned from their example and teachings. Customs grew from our new
combined heritage. Even our system of Trials did not erupt fully formed from the head of Kerensky. Some were adaptations as they occurred while others evolved from what they initially were.

Era Digest - Golden Century pg.10

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The ownership of Inner Sphere holdings is irrelevant for the Abjuration.

I wasn't talking about ownership of holdings in the Inner Sphere. I was countering your POV that the Wolves were intent on staying in the Homeworlds, then "packed their suitcase and left" because they were Abjured since they were weak. I countered that they WERE weak after the nuclear attack on Tamar and the subsequent Horse invasion, however Khan Ward addressed that.

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The sudden nuclear attack on Tamar at the end of 3070 very nearly paralyzed Clan Wolf. Losing almost two-thirds of its troops stationed there, 2.5 million civilians, a large portion of military industry, and the charismatic saKhan Marialle Raddick, the Clan nearly self-destructed. One of the biggest blows to the Clan, however, was the discovery that the Clan’s newly-built genetic repository had been caught on the outer edge of one of the nuclear blasts. The facility had just received the entirety of the Clan’s eugenics program only six months prior; over 90% of Clan Wolf’s genetic legacies were heavily irradiated or outright destroyed.

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To make matters worse, Khan Ward received disturbing reports from his Periphery border: Clan Hell’s Horses had arrived and were apparently bent on avenging themselves from Khan Ward’s manipulations during the prior decade. Faced with the potential loss of Tamar and a war on two fronts, the Wolves faced some difficult decisions. Khan Ward acted, decisively so.

pg.60

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Khan Ward, knowing that the Grand Council would most likely stall itself yet again [with ample examples over the last two years to prove his assumptions –SK], decided to follow the lead of the Ravens and Sharks and move the rest of the Wolves into the Inner Sphere.

pg.60 < BEFORE the Abjuration

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Instead, Khan Ward turned to the Wolves’ long-time allies in the Coyotes. The two Clans negotiated hard but ultimately, the Wolves received what they desperately needed: warriors and transportation.

The Coyotes transferred their entire Omicron Galaxy and over five Stars of merchant transports to the Wolves; once the troops and Wolf technicians were on their way, all of Clan Wolf’s Homeworld enclaves would become Clan Coyotes’. Additionally, Khan Ward bargained hard with Khan Kufahl for the boldest portion of the deal—the acquisition of ten sibkos of Coyotes, mostly those with minor Bloodnames or shared legacies with the Wolves.

Kufahl extracted a high price from the Wolves for the sibkos: the Provider and Relentless Pursuit, along with five Stars of aerospace. Once the deals were completed, Khan Ward knew it was time to drop Tamar’s atrocity into the apathetic midst of the Grand Council.

pg.61

Again, BEFORE the Abjuration

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The Grand Council that met in late February was not prepared for Khan Vlad Ward’s revelation of the nuclear strike on Tamar.

pg.63 <- February 3071 < BEFORE the Abjuration

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The Grand Council meeting on 4 March addressed the loss of the ilKhan by not voting to replace the deceased Sainze.

pg.64 <- March 3071 - BEFORE the Abjuration

During this meeting both Clan Ghost Bear & Clan Wolf realize that the GC is a worthless body, no longer recognize its authority and begin finalizing their exodus to the Inner Sphere. WoR confirms this:

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After several hours with little headway made on any issue, Ghost Bear Khan Bjorn Jorgensson declared the Council “politically flawed with dirty politics akin to when Clan Mongoose’s presence sullied this chamber” and left Strana Mechty with most of his Clan’s presence on the planet. Within a week, the only remaining Bear warriors were saKhan Aletha Kabrinski and a Star of warriors to oversee the quiet removal of the Clan’s exclusive Bloodheritages and attendant scientists.

pg.64

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Soon after Khan Jorgensson’s departure, Khan Ward disconnected himself from the proceedings, seeing the writing on the wall. The Wolves began their own exodus within a matter of days and notified the Coyotes of their impending transfer of enclaves and lower castes.

pg.64 < Oh look, this is BEFORE the Abjuration.

In the final stages of the exodus, Clan Wolf gets challenged by the Grand Council and REFUSES to comply. WoR confirms this:

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Khan Ward knew full well he needed to extricate the Clan from the Homeworlds and the petty bickering that had consumed the Grand Council. The troops from the Coyotes were fully transferred over, as well as several JumpShips’ worth of equipment and the agreed-upon sibkos, but the Wolves had one last action to carry out before making their exodus.

pg.65

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On 10 April, the First Wolf Lancers Cluster—having made the journey from the Inner Sphere specifically for the task at hand—landed on Strana Mechty. They then gathered up and escorted the entire genetic stock of exclusive Wolf Bloodnames to their DropShip. With the help of Wolf scientists, the Blood Chapels and the master genetic repository saw many of the Wolf exclusive Bloodnames removed. Because the warriors were careful in their duty and under strict orders by their Khan, few of the other Clans caught onto the Wolf actions until late in the day.

pg.65

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By the time other scientists had notified their Clans, the Wolves were preparing to lift. A direct order from the Grand Council commanded the vessel to stand down, but Star Colonel Ygrane Fetladral responded by igniting the Feral Penance’s engines. “The Wolf follows no other commands but those of the Khan. We do not bow to a council of politicians and old men,” was the terse reply. Unwilling to fire on the rising DropShip, the Grand Council ordered other Clan vessels moving into firing range to stand down. The Feral Penance and its priceless genetic cargo made its way unharmed to the waiting CWS Stealthy Kill. The Wolf WarShip jumped to Tranquil and, leaving nearly three Clusters of solahma who chose to remain in the Homeworlds, prepared for its journey to the Inner Sphere, carrying the future of the Clan with it.

pg.65

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On 15 April the Grand Council Abjured the Wolves. Khan Ward, present for the vote, did not hold back in his scathing rebuke of the “limp-spined parody of a council” and told the Khans present exactly where to stick their Abjuration. Khan Brett Andrews, outraged at the naked disrespect shown by Ward, moved to Annihilate the Wolves. [Khan Ward’s response was simple: “Bring it on.”–SK]

pg.66 < It's finally Abjuration time.

I reject your claim that the Wolves were weak, "packed their suitcases and left" BECAUSE of the Abjuration when it is CLEAR, they were planning to leave WAY before that happened and the source material backs me up on that.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

Each Clan is independent of each other and only agree on consensus for certain things. Each Clan conducts its affairs how it sees fit whether that goes against the norm or it bends or breaks some of the established rules.

And then there is the Grand Coucil of the Clans that has the authority over a wide array of matters, particulary issues concerning more than one Clan. (The Clans, p. 53, the right column)

The Grand Council Clans agreed that the Wolf behaviour concerns them, so they followed the Clan law and Abjured the Wolves. (WoR, p. 66)

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'll give you some examples.

1. The Jade Falcons illegal and unsanctioned Absorption of Clan Wolf during the Refusal War where they turned a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. I debated this point in a thread years ago; I can link you if you would like.

2. The Goliath Scorpions unsanctioned Absorption of the Ice Hellions. WoR pg.127, 129, 146

3. Clan Jade Falcon allowing a freeborn to compete for a Bloodname.

There are others but I just can't remember them at the moment.

You said something is not Clan if it was not part of the Clan system established by Nicholas Kerensky? That's incorrect. In TCWoK it states:

I'll give another example:

- Era Digest - Golden Century pg. 4

Additionally:

Era Digest - Golden Century pg.10

These examples of various bendings of the Clan customs are irrelevant with the regards of the Clan Wolf Abjuration: No Clan was Abjured or Annihilated because of them.

On the other hand, the Grand Council of the Clans agreed on the Abjuration of Clan Wolf and agreed swiftly. (WoR, p. 66)

Even if you mentioned those irrelevant examples, you have failed to deal with my points regarding the Abjuration that begin with "Not recognizing ... " and end with "... Abjured such Clan clearly and unambiguously. "

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

I wasn't talking about ownership of holdings in the Inner Sphere. I was countering your POV that the Wolves were intent on staying in the Homeworlds, then "packed their suitcase and left" because they were Abjured since they were weak. I countered that they WERE weak after the nuclear attack on Tamar and the subsequent Horse invasion, however Khan Ward addressed that.

I have never said that the Wolves intended to stay in the Homeworlds. Provide me with the quote where I am saying that.

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 September 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

pg.60

pg.60 < BEFORE the Abjuration

pg.61

Again, BEFORE the Abjuration

pg.63 <- February 3071 < BEFORE the Abjuration


pg.64 <- March 3071 - BEFORE the Abjuration

During this meeting both Clan Ghost Bear & Clan Wolf realize that the GC is a worthless body, no longer recognize its authority and begin finalizing their exodus to the Inner Sphere. WoR confirms this:

pg.64

pg.64 < Oh look, this is BEFORE the Abjuration.

In the final stages of the exodus, Clan Wolf gets challenged by the Grand Council and REFUSES to comply. WoR confirms this:


pg.65

pg.65

pg.65

pg.66 < It's finally Abjuration time.

I reject your claim that the Wolves were weak, "packed their suitcases and left" BECAUSE of the Abjuration when it is CLEAR, they were planning to leave WAY before that happened and the source material backs me up on that.

I said that "The strong contest the decision that they do not like in various Trials. That is the way of the Clans. The weak pack their suitcase and run." and that is exactly what the Wolves did.

The Wolves were free to issue a Trial of Refusal or a Trial of Abjuration (The Clans, p. 44 and p. 46) as it is the proper Clan way. They failed to do so, so they have lost their Clan status. It is as simple as that.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I didn't want to make my post super long so I was planning on splitting it up. So let's deal with the rest of what you said.

Quote

Could you tell me the exact page and paragraph, so I can read it for myself, please?

Gladly. On page 171 of WoR it states:

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Council of Six Clans

Begun as a suggestion in 3075 by both Khans James Cobb of the Hell’s Horses and Marthe Pryde of the Jade Falcons, the Council of Six Clans—now called the Council of Six—was formed to provide common governance of the Inner Sphere Clans. Neither the Exiled Wolves nor the Nova Cats hold any status within the Council, being Abjured Clans through proper Clan law.

Those CLANS recognize the Abjuration of the Nova Cats and Wolves in Exile because it was done properly. The book says so.

This is confirmed in Era Digest - Golden Century page 13

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This tool is often used against those that stray from the path of the Clans but have not completely rejected it. When Clan Nova Cat allied with the Star League and part of Clan Wolf with the Federated Commonwealth, they were both Abjured in absentia.

Quote

I have never said that the Wolves intended to stay in the Homeworlds. Provide me with the quote where I am saying that.

I never said you wrote that because you never typed those exact words but I said you were framing your argument to make it seem that the Wolves were weak and "packed their suitcase and ran" (YOUR words) because they got Abjured. I proved that was NOT the case directly from the source material to show the Wolves were planning on leaving LONG before the Abjuration and were actually in the process of transferring over to the IS when the Abjuration came down.

Let's dive into the rest of what took place.

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The proper way of contesting the decision of the Grand Council of the Clans is to demand a Trial of Refusal. (The Clans, p. 44 the left / right column, p. 46 the right column) Ulric Kerensky did it a generation ago. Any other course of action is irrelevant regarding the Abjuration and essentially equals to accepting the judgment of the Grand Coucil of the Clans.

Also, the former Clan Wolf had Warriors in the Homeworlds available for such Trial ...

You don't demand Trials from a body you no longer recognize. I have showed evidence that Clan Ghost Bear and Clan Wolf no longer recognized the authority of the GC and I can provide more evidence if you like but let's look at what actually happened and break it down.

I have already showed from the source material that Clan Wolf refused to comply with the GC and actively defied it. I will continue to do so.

Let's break down what's supposed to happen in an Abjuration:

Quote

Once convicted, the Abjured have five days to surrender any possessions not belonging to them (very little, if anything, does) and exit Clan territory.

Era Digest - Golden Century pg. 13

You are supposed to pack your stuff and leave in five days but as you yourself pointed out there were Wolf warriors on the Homeworlds. That seems to be in defiance of the GC judgement.... I though the Wolves were "weak" though?

According to the source material , not all of the Clan Wolf warriors wanted to go to the Inner Sphere. Some of them CHOSE to stay. And what did these "weak" Wolves do? Well since they were Abjured and didn't leave like they were supposed to, they got squashed right? Smashed? Exterminated? I mean since they were no longer recognized as Clan, the gloves were off right? These "weak" Wolves should have been a breeze to get rid of RIGHT?

Let's see what the source material says shall we? According to WoR page 69:

Quote

By the end of May, Tranquil stood as the last bastion of the Wolves in the Homeworlds. The Clan held off numerous attempts by various Clan forces—Blood Spirits, Cloud Cobras, Steel Vipers, Star Adders, and Ice Hellions. Galaxy Commander Warren Stiles refused to submit, consolidating all of the Clan’s forces near Aquila and nearby Fort Newclay. No attacking Clan made any headway against the heavily entrenched Wolf position. Many of them attacked each other in strikes of denial; the lack of cooperation only helped the Wolves hold out against the rest of the Clans. A gritty détente had set in by June.

Something doesn't add up here. You kept referring to the Wolves as weak. Now I already stated in the previous post that the GC Abjured the Wolves on April 15th. That meant that 5 days later (April 20th), the Wolves should have either been ejected from Clan space forcibly or left of their own accord. However in May they were still in Clan space in DEFIANCE of the GC and holding off FIVE different Clans to the point where they gave up in June. That doesn't look weak to me. Your case is as strong as wet toilet paper. Another point rebutted.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

Gladly. On page 171 of WoR it states:

Council of Six Clans
Begun as a suggestion in 3075 by both Khans James Cobb of the Hell’s Horses and Marthe Pryde of the Jade Falcons, the Council of Six Clans—now called the Council of Six—was formed to provide common governance of the Inner Sphere Clans. Neither the Exiled Wolves nor the Nova Cats hold any status within the Council, being Abjured Clans through proper Clan law.
Those CLANS recognize the Abjuration of the Nova Cats and Wolves in Exile because it was done properly. The book says so.

Exactly. The Abjuration of the Nova Cats, etc. was done properly through proper Clan law. All right. The Abjuration of the Wolves was also done properly, through exactly the same Clan law as before, and by the same supreme Clan body, following the same procedure. Thus, the Wolves were Abjured just as the Nova Cats were. (WoR, p. 66)

For the Grand Council of the Clans, there is no difference between the Abjured Nova Cats and the Abjured Wolves. (WoR, p. 149)

Therefore, your argument that "2. The Abjuration was not done properly which WoR confirms " cannot be correct. The procedure of Abjuration of both Clans was identical

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

This is confirmed in Era Digest - Golden Century page 13

This is how Ragnar Magnusson sees the Abjuration: "To put it more simply, the Nova Cats and Exiles are not Clan in name, just in culture." (WoR, p.145)

And since the Abjured Wolves were served the same punishment as the Nova Cats by the same Grand Coucil of the Clans, the same conclusion applies to them as well.

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

I never said you wrote that because you never typed those exact words but I said you were framing your argument to make it seem that the Wolves were weak and "packed their suitcase and ran" (YOUR words) because they got Abjured. I proved that was NOT the case directly from the source material to show the Wolves were planning on leaving LONG before the Abjuration and were actually in the process of transferring over to the IS when the Abjuration came down.

Then I would suggest that you read what I actually write instead of discussing something what you think that I write. Since I have never said that " ... the Wolves were intent on staying in the Homeworlds, then "packed their suitcase and left" because they were Abjured since they were weak. ", your "proving" actually proved nothing.

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

You don't demand Trials from a body you no longer recognize. I have showed evidence that Clan Ghost Bear and Clan Wolf no longer recognized the authority of the GC and I can provide more evidence if you like but let's look at what actually happened and break it down.

You are still avoiding that part of one of my previous posts that starts with "Not recognizing ..."

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

I have already showed from the source material that Clan Wolf refused to comply with the GC and actively defied it. I will continue to do so.

This is really not helping your point, you know.

You can read how the Founder of the Clans Nicholas Kerensky saw the people who refused to comply with the Grand Council of the Clans and actively defied it: "Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness." (The Clans, p. 13)

The Founder of the Clans recognized the un-Clanlike behaviour when he saw it. After all, he created the Clans.

Yeah, Wolverine Khan decided not to recognize the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans and ilKhan any longer and commited the ultimate sin: declared the Wolverines independent of the Clans, so the Wolverines were Annihilated. (The Clans, p. 12-13) Wolf Khan also decided not to recognize the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans and thus he also effectively commited the same sin: declared the Wolves independent of the Clans. (WoR, p. 66; also confirmed on p.65)
Wolverine Khan insulted directly IlKhan of the Clans and thus - by extension - the Clans themselves. (The Clans, p.12). Wolf Khan also insulted directly the Grand Council of the Clans and thus - by extension - the Clans themselves. (WoR, p.66)

The former Wolves were lucky that the Grand Council of the Clans settled on the Abjuration instead of Annihilation. (WoR, p. 66)

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

Let's break down what's supposed to happen in an Abjuration:
Once convicted, the Abjured have five days to surrender any possessions not belonging to them (very little, if anything, does) and exit Clan territory.
Era Digest - Golden Century pg. 13

I guess that you should know that those five days are not always given. Sometimes, a month is given, such as in the case of the Nova Cats. The actual removal of this former Clan took even longer.

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

You are supposed to pack your stuff and leave in five days but as you yourself pointed out there were Wolf warriors on the Homeworlds. That seems to be in defiance of the GC judgement.... I though the Wolves were "weak" though?

As the book says, those unable or unwilling to leave will be imprisoned or executed. See? The Clan law is ready for such possibility.(Golden Century, p. 13) And that is how the Abjuration of the Wolves was executed. Those Homeworlds Wolves were wiped out.

Jaroth Corbett, on 24 September 2023 - 05:47 AM, said:

According to the source material , not all of the Clan Wolf warriors wanted to go to the Inner Sphere. Some of them CHOSE to stay. And what did these "weak" Wolves do? Well since they were Abjured and didn't leave like they were supposed to, they got squashed right? Smashed? Exterminated? I mean since they were no longer recognized as Clan, the gloves were off right? These "weak" Wolves should have been a breeze to get rid of RIGHT?

Let's see what the source material says shall we? According to WoR page 69:
By the end of May, Tranquil stood as the last bastion of the Wolves in the Homeworlds. The Clan held off numerous attempts by various Clan forces—Blood Spirits, Cloud Cobras, Steel Vipers, Star Adders, and Ice Hellions. Galaxy Commander Warren Stiles refused to submit, consolidating all of the Clan’s forces near Aquila and nearby Fort Newclay. No attacking Clan made any headway against the heavily entrenched Wolf position. Many of them attacked each other in strikes of denial; the lack of cooperation only helped the Wolves hold out against the rest of the Clans. A gritty détente had set in by June.

Something doesn't add up here. You kept referring to the Wolves as weak. Now I already stated in the previous post that the GC Abjured the Wolves on April 15th. That meant that 5 days later (April 20th), the Wolves should have either been ejected from Clan space forcibly or left of their own accord. However in May they were still in Clan space in DEFIANCE of the GC and holding off FIVE different Clans to the point where they gave up in June. That doesn't look weak to me. Your case is as strong as wet toilet paper. Another point rebutted.

Do you read the text that you are copypasting? The text clearly says that the attackers wasted a lot of their efforts on the internal bickering and attempts to throw a spanner in their competitors works instead on fighting the Abjured Wolves.

After that a WarShip was used to wipe out the Abjured Wolves from orbit. Easy and simple. So much for any "defiance". Nobody said that the execution of those Abjured Wolves must be by the bullet to the head.

You still do not get that those Abjured ones, who do not leave in the alloted time (the reason is irrelevant), are imprisoned or simply killed off. It is the decision of the chosen Clans and the Grand Council of the Clans how to enact the Abjuration.

Edited by martian, 25 September 2023 - 12:43 PM.

[RalphyNoPants]

On the wishlist.

[Jaroth Corbett]

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Do you read the text that you are copypasting? The text clearly says that the attackers wasted a lot of their efforts on the internal bickering and attempts to throw a spanner in their competitors works instead on fighting the Abjured Wolves.

Yes I DO read the text I am copypasting. Do YOU? The book doesn't say that the ONLY reason the Wolves survived were because the 5 Clans were fighting each other. It says that NONE of the 5 Clans attacking made ANY headway and as a sidenote when they fought each other it only helped Clan Wolf. Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS. So much for your weak nonsense.

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This is how Ragnar Magnusson sees the Abjuration: "To put it more simply, the Nova Cats and Exiles are not Clan in name, just in culture." (WoR, p.145)

Ragnar gives his opinion in a later conversation. What I was referring to was the fact that the assembled CLANS in the Council of Six Clans (the book says so) recognizes the Abjuration of the Nova Cats and the Wolves in Exile because those were done by proper Clan law. The notation is made by Diamond Shark Loremaster Semi Kalasa on page 171.

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This is really not helping your point, you know.


You can read how the Founder of the Clans Nicholas Kerensky saw the people who refused to comply with the Grand Council of the Clans and actively defied it: "Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness." (The Clans, p. 13)

The Founder of the Clans recognized the un-Clanlike behaviour when he saw it. After all, he created the Clans.

Getting information straight from the source material IS helping my point. I'm just fine. And when Nicholas lived there wasn't a split in the Clans. There was no Warden or Crusader movement and none of them had returned to the Inner Sphere. Things change over time. Most importantly the difference between the Invader/Inner Sphere Clans and the Homeworld Clans which Vlad pointed out in Grave Covenant:

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The fact is that you and the other Clans not included in the invasion of the Inner Sphere have been left so far behind the rest of us that you could never absorb an invading clan. What we have learned fighting against the Inner Sphere has made us inherently stronger than you will ever be.

In fact in that same novel, Vlad states what the Ice Hellions, and by extension the other Homeworld Clans, are hoping to do:

Quote

Ask Marthe Pryde. Ask Lincoln Osis. They know that your secret dreams of absorbing an invading clan and thereby taking its place are folly.

ilKhan Andrews targets all of the IS Clans, called them tainted and initiates Reaving Trials hoping that the desired outcome would be Absorption. This was a Khan who became ilKhan and jealous of the success of the other IS Clans because the Steel Vipers were activated as a reserve Clan for the invasion but had little success, had their asses handed to them on Tukayyid and IIRC never really had an established presence or OZ in the IS. They also got wrecked by the Jade Falcons in Falcon Rising IIRC.

He even mentions what he thinks will happen because of the declaring the IS Clans as "tainted" in his own memoirs:

Quote

Those Clans will be automatic targets for Absorption (or possibly Annihilation) when we form our new invasion force; their occupational zones will make excellent supply points and beachheads as their worlds are already used to the superior Clan way of life.

Exactly what Vlad talked about years before, the Homeworld Clans Absorb and take the place of the Invader Clans.

It's no wonder when the votes came in, declaring the IS Clans "tainted" and the start of the Reaving Trials, he tried to delay the information from getting to them.

Quote

IlKhan Andrews needed word of the Grand Council votes [and the horrifying chaos on Strana Mechty, no doubt – SK] to be delayed reaching the Inner Sphere Clans. Andrews asked Khan N’Buta to “address the problem.”

If everything was done properly and above board why the need to delay the info?
He knew what he was doing was IMPROPER which is why in WoR it states when the Ghost Bears on the Homeworlds heard about it this is what happened:

Quote

In mid-December, the Fire Mandrill Anathema arrived at Arcadia and declared Trials of Reaving against the Snuka and Vong Bloodnames. The Mandrills dropped the remainder of Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant’s touman on the planet and were stunned when they were summarily crushed by the Fourth Bear Regulars and saKhan Aletha Kabrinski’s Silverroot Keshik in response.

Kabrinski, after meeting with Loremaster Laurie Tseng on Arcadia, had ordered the Fourth’s warriors to ignore the Reaving Trials, calling them “improper and a horrid misuse of Clan law.” The saKhan immediately departed for the Inner Sphere after the battle to inform Khan Jorgensson of the now-untenable situation within the Homeworlds; Loremaster Tseng would follow as soon as every last Ghost Bear JumpShip was loaded with whatever could be scraped off Arcadia’s surface

Are you going to argue with the source material?

On another occasion ilKhan Andrews,. leading the GC, tries to hide the results of a vote from the IS Clans yet again:

Quote

The Grand Council Loremaster was ordered by the ilKhan to withhold the result of the Council’s vote from the missing Clans but Kael Pershaw, loyal to Clan law and not to the spurious orders of the ilKhan, defied the Grand Council’s orders and notified Ghost Bear Loremaster Laurie Tseng [who was still on planet –SK] and the Jade Falcon Khans.

I ask again, if everything is being done properly and above board, why the need for secrecy?
Are you going to argue with the source material? The entire process was IMPROPER.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 26 September 2023 - 08:34 AM.

[Trystan Thorne]

It's great that it's not Clan Jade Falcon or Clan Wolf.
I would have preferred Clan Ghost Bear, but one was able to play them in the past.
I don't think we ever got the chance to play Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Edited by Trystan Thorne, 26 September 2023 - 10:02 AM.

[Throe]

Will there be "view bobbing" in MW5:Clans?

It's absent in MWO(the view and crosshair simply follow the ground at the 'Mech's feet in linear fashion), but present in MW5:Mercenaries, and to my knowledge there's still no way to toggle it off in MW5:M(neither through mods nor DLC).

I consider MW5:M to be unplayable as a result, and I'll not be throwing any more money at anyone unless and until this "feature" is addressed.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

Yes I DO read the text I am copypasting. Do YOU? The book doesn't say that the ONLY reason the Wolves survived were because the 5 Clans were fighting each other. It says that NONE of the 5 Clans attacking made ANY headway and as a sidenote when they fought each other it only helped Clan Wolf. Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS. So much for your weak nonsense.

I do, but obviously you do not. Otherwise you would notice that the same the text does not talk about "FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" as in five toumans of five different Clans attacking the Wolf compound. LOL

That would be impossible because the Homeworlds Clans had their various units deployed across the Homeworlds and the Clan OZ. Just the next paragraph provides some details regarding exactly that for the Ice Hellions, for example. Etc.

Just a few lines above, the text talks about "various Clan forces", which is a more accurate description.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

Ragnar gives his opinion in a later conversation. What I was referring to was the fact that the assembled CLANS in the Council of Six Clans (the book says so) recognizes the Abjuration of the Nova Cats and the Wolves in Exile because those were done by proper Clan law. The notation is made by Diamond Shark Loremaster Semi Kalasa on page 171.

Oh, is the word "CLANS" what is confusing you? The book says it through the mouth of Semi Kalasa, member of another Abjured Clan. It is the same case like with the Abjured Nova Cats. Even after their Abjuration they referred about themselves as "Clan", even though they have lost such status. The actual Clans do not care how members of Annihilated or Abjured former Clans call themselves.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

Getting information straight from the source material IS helping my point. I'm just fine. And when Nicholas lived there wasn't a split in the Clans. There was no Warden or Crusader movement and none of them had returned to the Inner Sphere. Things change over time. Most importantly the difference between the Invader/Inner Sphere Clans and the Homeworld Clans which Vlad pointed out in Grave Covenant:
In fact in that same novel, Vlad states what the Ice Hellions, and by extension the other Homeworld Clans, are hoping to do:

What Wards thinks that somebody else thinks about what somebody else dreams about in 3050s is irrelevant.
Your talk about Wardens and Crusaders is also irrelevant and also had nothing to do with the Wolf Abjuration. It was the Ward's own decisions that led to the Abjuration of Wolves. Nobody forced him to do what he did. Without the Ward's actions, the Grand Council of the Clans would have no Abjuration to vote about in April 3071.

I laughed when I read your weak attempt that "Things change over time. etc." The Clans has in-universe date of 3062, i.e. just a few years before the Wolf Abjuration. It clearly says what was a heinous crime in the Nicholas Kerensky time - "not recognizing the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans" and "declaring themselves independent of the Clans" - was still considered to be un-Clanlike behaviour even in the Ward's time. The book's text shows clearly that "the things do not change" in this respect.

And of course, the Grand Council of the Clans with its attending Clans held the same opinion when it Abjured the Wolves, proving more than clearly that "some things do not change".

Thus, you have failed to deal with this:
You can read how the Founder of the Clans Nicholas Kerensky saw the people who refused to comply with the Grand Council of the Clans and actively defied it: "Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness." (The Clans, p. 13)

The Founder of the Clans recognized the un-Clanlike behaviour when he saw it. After all, he created the Clans.

Yeah, Wolverine Khan decided not to recognize the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans and ilKhan any longer and commited the ultimate sin: declared the Wolverines independent of the Clans, so the Wolverines were Annihilated. (The Clans, p. 12-13) Wolf Khan also decided not to recognize the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans and thus he also effectively commited the same sin: declared the Wolves independent of the Clans. (WoR, p. 66; also confirmed on p.65)
Wolverine Khan insulted directly IlKhan of the Clans and thus - by extension - the Clans themselves. (The Clans, p.12). Wolf Khan also insulted directly the Grand Council of the Clans and thus - by extension - the Clans themselves. (WoR, p.66)

The former Wolves were lucky that the Grand Council of the Clans settled on the Abjuration instead of Annihilation. (WoR, p. 66)

Even you personally have confirmed that the former Wolves commited this "ultimate sin". Remember? "I have already showed from the source material that Clan Wolf refused to comply with the GC and actively defied it. I will continue to do so." LOL

Did the Abjured Wolves break the faith with the Unity of the Clans? They did and you confirmed it.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

ilKhan Andrews targets all of the IS Clans, called them tainted and initiates Reaving Trials hoping that the desired outcome would be Absorption. This was a Khan who became ilKhan and jealous of the success of the other IS Clans because the Steel Vipers were activated as a reserve Clan for the invasion but had little success, had their asses handed to them on Tukayyid and IIRC never really had an established presence or OZ in the IS. They also got wrecked by the Jade Falcons in Falcon Rising IIRC.

He even mentions what he thinks will happen because of the declaring the IS Clans as "tainted" in his own memoirs:

Exactly what Vlad talked about years before, the Homeworld Clans Absorb and take the place of the Invader Clans.

Nice attempt, but irrelevant.

When the Abjuration of the Wolves was taking the place, Andrews was not ilKhan - he was just one Khan of just one Clan. The Grand Council of the Clans voted about the Abjuration of the Wolves. Andrews had just one vote during this procedure. I repeat: He was not ilKhan yet.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

It's no wonder when the votes came in, declaring the IS Clans "tainted" and the start of the Reaving Trials, he tried to delay the information from getting to them.

If everything was done properly and above board why the need to delay the info?
He knew what he was doing was IMPROPER which is why in WoR it states when the Ghost Bears on the Homeworlds heard about it this is what happened:
Are you going to argue with the source material?

I laugh whenever I see that you misunderstood it.

All those events that you wrote about happened many months "after" the Abjuration of Wolves and those events are trully irrelevant. I repeat: During the Abjuration of the former Wolves, Andrews was not ilKhan yet.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

On another occasion ilKhan Andrews,. leading the GC, tries to hide the results of a vote from the IS Clans yet again:

I ask again, if everything is being done properly and above board, why the need for secrecy?

It is irrelevant how many paragraphs describing what ilKhan Andrews did many months after the Abjuration of the Wolves you copypaste here.

Regarding the Abjuration of the Wolves, Andrews was not ilKhan and there was no secrecy: Invading and Homeworlds Clans were present. The text describing the Abjuration of the Wolves even clearly says so .... LOL

Anybody disagreeing with the Grand Council of the Clans regarding the Abjuration of the Wolves was free to issue a Trial or Refusal (or a Trial of Abjuration) - but nobody did so. Thus, the matter of the Abjuration of the Wolves was closed, with no contesting voice.

Jaroth Corbett, on 25 September 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

Are you going to argue with the source material? The entire process was IMPROPER.

Yeah, you keep repeating it.

Has the Grand Council of the Clans the authority to Abjure a Clan?

[C337Skymaster]

AmbidXtrousGNOME, on 18 September 2023 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'm assuming recent tradition dictates that the Longbow will show up in MWO eventually so I was already grouping it presumptuously with the 'current' roster. I was wondering (hoping) that we will get to see something brand new not currently in either MW5/MWO. Couldn't you just read my mind and know that's what I meant? (JK, thanks for the reply)

My vote is for the Firemoth. We've been told for 12 years that Cryengine can't handle its speed, so here's our chance to see it, since the game engine is different.

But yeah, I'd be more surprised if we don't see the Longbow in MWO eventually.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 28 September 2023 - 06:30 AM.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 28 September 2023 - 06:29 AM, said:

My vote is for the Firemoth. We've been told for 12 years that Cryengine can't handle its speed, so here's our chance to see it, since the game engine is different.

But yeah, I'd be more surprised if we don't see the Longbow in MWO eventually.

MechWarrior 2 and its expansion pack included the Fire Moth.

[C337Skymaster]

martian, on 28 September 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

MechWarrior 2 and its expansion pack included the Fire Moth.

They included the Timber Wolf, Thor, Vulture, Daishi, etc, etc, as well. Fire Moth hasn't been seen since MW2, however, where most of the rest of the 'mechs in the MWO roster have.

If you're gonna go for 'mechs that have never been in any MW game, MW2: Mercs is gonna force you to hunt very far, and very wide, as the underlying roster of 'mechs in that game was ginormous, compared to any of the games that have been published, since.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 28 September 2023 - 09:17 AM, said:

They included the Timber Wolf, Thor, Vulture, Daishi, etc, etc, as well. Fire Moth hasn't been seen since MW2, however, where most of the rest of the 'mechs in the MWO roster have.

I wonder if they will make the Grizzly for some future Ghost Bear expansion pack.

C337Skymaster, on 28 September 2023 - 09:17 AM, said:

If you're gonna go for 'mechs that have never been in any MW game, MW2: Mercs is gonna force you to hunt very far, and very wide, as the underlying roster of 'mechs in that game was ginormous, compared to any of the games that have been published, since.

Well, models of 'Mechs and textures were slightly less detailed then than they are now.

Thus, making them easier to produce and place them into the game.

[C337Skymaster]

martian, on 28 September 2023 - 10:03 AM, said:

I wonder if they will make the Grizzly for some future Ghost Bear expansion pack.


Well, models of 'Mechs and textures were slightly less detailed then than they are now.

Thus, making them easier to produce and place them into the game.

I certainly hope so. For that matter, if they make anything specifically Ghost Bear, the following 'mechs are absolute musts (missing from the current MWO roster):

Kingfisher
Grizzly
Ursus (Outside of the invasion timeline, admittedly)
Fire Moth

Edited by C337Skymaster, 28 September 2023 - 11:12 AM.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 28 September 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

I certainly hope so. For that matter, if they make anything specifically Ghost Bear, the following 'mechs are absolute musts (missing from the current MWO roster):

Kingfisher
Grizzly
Ursus (Outside of the invasion timeline, admittedly)
Fire Moth

The Kingfisher would be a big disappointment for many players, since it has fixed standard fusion engine. That means 20-25 tons of pod space available for weapons (depending on the armor allocation). Compare it with the 50 tons of weapons that the Daishi can carry.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

I do, but obviously you do not. Otherwise you would notice that the same the text does not talk about "FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" as in five toumans of five different Clans attacking the Wolf compound. LOL

That would be impossible because the Homeworlds Clans had their various units deployed across the Homeworlds and the Clan OZ. Just the next paragraph provides some details regarding exactly that for the Ice Hellions, for example. Etc.

Just a few lines above, the text talks about "various Clan forces", which is a more accurate description.

ROFL Did you really just insinuate I was referring to the ENTIRE touman of EACH Clan? Yes it is FIVE SEPARATE Clans that attacked and were repulsed.DO you know how I know that? The book says so. At no time did I state it was the entire military arm of those Clans. It seems you need me to spell things out for you, so you don't get confused. Allow me to do so . Elements of five separate Clans attacked. That should be better.

Quote

What Wards thinks that somebody else thinks about what somebody else dreams about in 3050s is irrelevant.

Not when what he states is exactly what happens which I proved quoting the source material.

Quote

Your talk about Wardens and Crusaders is also irrelevant and also had nothing to do with the Wolf Abjuration.

You need to pay attention. I didn't bring that up in regard to the Abjuration. I was countering your point about Nicholas Kerensky. I clearly stated that things had changed since Nicholas Kerensky was alive. It's literally right there in black and white.

Quote

Yeah, Wolverine Khan decided not to recognize the authority of the Grand Council of the Clans and ilKhan any longer and commited the ultimate sin: declared the Wolverines independent of the Clans, so the Wolverines were Annihilated.

What? The Wolverines weren't Annhilated for declaring themselves independent. The same book you're quoting tells you that. The Annihilation was for two reasons:

1. The use of a nuclear weapon (which led to)
2. The destruction of a Snow Raven genetic repository.

These were both inexcusable and unforgivable crimes.

Quote

When Snow Raven forces acting on their own initiative probed the Wolverine border on 10 October, the Wolverines counterattacked. They showed no mercy, and after a short battle sacked the Raven capital of Dehra Dun. They retreated in the face of Clan Mongoose and Nova Cat forces massing, but not before making an object lesson of the city. After driving civilians from the area, they used a low-yield nuclear weapon to destroy the Raven genetic repository........Cowed by this "barbaric: action, The Mongoose, Nova Cat and Snow Raven forces withdrew pending the Grand Council's final deliberation.

TCWOK p.13

The SAME book you are quoting CLEARLY says that THEN COMES THE ANNIHILATION VOTE

Quote

With the destruction of the repository, the question of how to punish the Wolverines took a new twist. The Grand Council had voted on 8 October to censure McEvedy and the Wolverines, but had ultimately intended to bring them back into the Clan fold. Now they enacted the ultimate punishment. On 11 October, the Khans voted for the Annhilation of the entire Wolverine Clan. As sentence was passed,

TCWOK p.13

(here comes the quote you've been flinging around with the wrong context)

Quote

Nicholas delivered what became his most famous quote: "Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

TCWOK p.13

I laugh whenever I see you quoting the very words that make what you say null & void. Do YOU read the stuff you are copypasting?

And again you can smash your keyboard until your fingers bleed. Clan Wolf took Terra and became the IlClan. There's nothing you can do about that. The book says so.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 28 September 2023 - 11:51 AM.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 September 2023 - 11:49 AM, said:

ROFL Did you really just insinuate I was referring to the ENTIRE touman of EACH Clan? Yes it is FIVE SEPARATE Clans that attacked and were repulsed.DO you know how I know that? The book says so. At no time did I state it was the entire military arm of those Clans. It seems you need me to spell things out for you, so you don't get confused. Allow me to do so . Elements of five separate Clans attacked. That should be better.

Yes, I really think so, especially since you said: "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS"

But everything is okay, I told you that only some units of their respective toumans took the part.

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 September 2023 - 11:49 AM, said:

Not when what he states is exactly what happens which I proved quoting the source material.

The description of the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf does not mention no such thing. Sorry. You just brought another irrelevant tidbit.

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 September 2023 - 11:49 AM, said:

You need to pay attention. I didn't bring that up in regard to the Abjuration. I was countering your point about Nicholas Kerensky. I clearly stated that things had changed since Nicholas Kerensky was alive. It's literally right there in black and white.

What? The Wolverines weren't Annhilated for declaring themselves independent. The same book you're quoting tells you that. The Annihilation was for two reasons:

1. The use of a nuclear weapon (which led to)
2. The destruction of a Snow Raven genetic repository.

These were both inexcusable and unforgivable crimes.

TCWOK p.13

The SAME book you are quoting CLEARLY says that THEN COMES THE ANNIHILATION VOTE

TCWOK p.13

(here comes the quote you've been flinging around with the wrong context)

TCWOK p.13

When the book says directly that "the ultimate sin" is declaring the independence, then it really is. The book even clearly says that it was the Kerensky's intent to destroy the Wolverine before the use of a nuclear weapon. Note that the former Clan Wolf was Abjured even without using nuclear weapons.

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 September 2023 - 11:49 AM, said:

I laugh whenever I see you quoting the very words that make what you say null & void. Do YOU read the stuff you are copypasting?

You mean, like when you copypasted a ton of irrelevant stuff about what ilKhan Andrews did and did not, while the discussion revolves around the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf, i.e. things that happened many months before Andrews was elected?

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 September 2023 - 11:49 AM, said:

And again you can smash your keyboard until your fingers bleed. Clan Wolf took Terra and became the IlClan. There's nothing you can do about that. The book says so.

And you have still not answered this simple question: Has the Grand Council of the Clans the authority to Abjure a Clan?

Edited by martian, 28 September 2023 - 12:24 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

martian, on 28 September 2023 - 11:33 AM, said:

The Kingfisher would be a big disappointment for many players, since it has fixed standard fusion engine. That means 20-25 tons of pod space available for weapons (depending on the armor allocation). Compare it with the 50 tons of weapons that the Daishi can carry.

Maybe, but it's also durable for an omnimech, most of its builds run pretty cold, and the Ghost Bears used it almost as much as the Executioner, so excluding it would be amiss.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 28 September 2023 - 01:12 PM, said:

Maybe, but it's also durable for an omnimech, most of its builds run pretty cold, and the Ghost Bears used it almost as much as the Executioner, so excluding it would be amiss.

Unfortunately, all these things have some importance in the desktop game and partially in the single player campaign.

But if we expect to see the Kingfisher in MWO eventually, then the things would not look so good:

• the supposed durability of its SFE would not play a big role. You know how quickly assault 'Mechs die under the concentrated fire, SFE or not. And in 1-on-1 duel, I would put my money on that aforementioned Daishi, because its firepower (twice of the Kingfisher's) would probably give it the upper hand.
  
• As for its builds, in MWO people typically do not run stock builds, unless they have some pretty good reason for it.
  
• While it is true that the CGB uses the Kingfisher, many MWO players do not care about the BattleTech lore. MWO Quick Play teams are random mix of 'Mechs anyway - IS and Clan, various factions, various Clans, etc.

However, any possible CGB expansion pack is years away.

Edited by martian, 28 September 2023 - 09:38 PM.