149 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 19 September 2023 - 07:40 AM, said:

That former Clan Wolf did not dare to refuse the decision of the Grand Coucil of the Clans, thus accepting the decision Abjuring it.

As you said 'Might makes right' ... and it was the mighty Grand Coucil that Abjured the Wolves and the weak Wolves were too weak to contest the decision.

First off, those "weak Wolves" took Terra which shuts any and everybody up since might makes right. Secondly, name a SINGLE instance of a Clan being Abjured that was overturned by combat. I'll wait. Third, When the Grand Council voted for the abjurement, all the Inner Sphere Khans (as well as several Homeworld Khans) had lost all respect for the Grand Council. Most of the Inner Sphere Clans had already begun (or were wrapping up) their own preparations to move as much of their Clan to the Inner Sphere realizing that they would eventually end up on the chopping block as well. At the time they were simply going through the motions buying time for their own plans while, for all intents and purposes, ignoring the Grand Council dictates.

You know how I know that? Because after they were supposed to be Abjured, the Wolves ended up on the Council of Six which were made up of *drum roll* IS Clans. Abjurement merely means that the individual or groups are no longer recognized as "Clan" and lose any benefits derived from being "Clan" including participation in the Clan breeding program. Yet somehow, the Wolves were not only still recognized as Clan but participated in the exchange of genetic material and the sharing of formerly exclusive Bloodnames with the other Clans on the CoS.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

First off, those "weak Wolves" took Terra which shuts any and everybody up since might makes right.

For the Grand Council of the Clans, the Abjured Wolves are no different from any other Inner Sphere faction. They lost their Clan status decades before they arrived to Terra.

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

Secondly, name a SINGLE instance of a Clan being Abjured that was overturned by combat. I'll wait.

The Abjured Wolves did not even dare to refuse the judgment of the Grand Coucil of the Clans. There is no better admission of their weakness.

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

Third, When the Grand Council voted for the abjurement, all the Inner Sphere Khans (as well as several Homeworld Khans) had lost all respect for the Grand Council. Most of the Inner Sphere Clans had already begun (or were wrapping up) their own preparations to move as much of their Clan to the Inner Sphere realizing that they would eventually end up on the chopping block as well.

Running away instead of fighting ... Well, that seems like a clear sign of knowing that they would lose. The weak run away before the strong.

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

At the time they were simply going through the motions buying time for their own plans while, for all intents and purposes, ignoring the Grand Council dictates.

The strong contest the decision that they do not like in various Trials. That is the way of the Clans. The weak pack their suitcase and run.

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

You know how I know that? Because after they were supposed to be Abjured, the Wolves ended up on the Council of Six which were made up of *drum roll* IS Clans. Abjurement merely means that the individual or groups are no longer recognized as "Clan" and lose any benefits derived from being "Clan" including participation in the Clan breeding program. Yet somehow, the Wolves were not only still recognized as Clan but participated in the exchange of genetic material and the sharing of formerly exclusive Bloodnames with the other Clans on the CoS.

The Wolves were not "supposed to be Abjured" - they have been actually Abjured by the supreme body of the Clans.

The so-called Council of Six is just a discussion group of various Abjured Clans. Former Clans.

Edited by martian, 19 September 2023 - 11:40 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 19 September 2023 - 11:39 AM, said:

For the Grand Council of the Clans, the Abjured Wolves are no different from any other Inner Sphere faction. They lost their Clan status decades before they arrived to Terra.



The Abjured Wolves did not even dare to refuse the judgment of the Grand Coucil of the Clans. There is no better admission of their weakness.



Running away instead of fighting ... Well, that seems like a clear sign of knowing that they would lose. The weak run away before the strong.



The strong contest the decision that they do not like in various Trials. That is the way of the Clans. The weak pack their suitcase and run.



The Wolves were not "supposed to be Abjured" - they have been actually Abjured by the supreme body of the Clans.

The so-called Council of Six is just a discussion group of various Abjured Clans. Former Clans.

Near the end of the War of Reaving the Home World Clans voted that all Clans not present at the Clan Council were abjured from the Clans. Around this time, both the Home Clans and IS Clans voted to have no further contact with the other group. They didn't run away, they simply didn't give a damn just like all the other IS Clans. The decision held no sway because each group doesn't recognize the other's status.

If I'm a bricklayer and you say "I don't recognize you as a bricklayer anymore and will no longer refer to you as such." And I keep on laying bricks, I don't care about what you said and the work keeps getting done. Not a SINGLE Homeworld Clan on the Grand Council took Terra. Clan Wolf did. Clan Wolf is on the Council of Six and is trading Bloodnames with other Clans which shouldn't be allowed right? The Home Clans went their way and the IS Clans went theirs. You can smash your keyboard until your fingers bleed, it won't change the outcome.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 12:40 PM, said:

Near the end of the War of Reaving the Home World Clans voted that all Clans not present at the Clan Council were abjured from the Clans. Around this time, both the Home Clans and IS Clans voted to have no further contact with the other group. They didn't run away, they simply didn't give a damn just like all the other IS Clans. The decision held no sway because each group doesn't recognize the other's status.

Have you actually read the relevant BattleTech books, or did you just check Sarna?

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 12:40 PM, said:

If I'm a bricklayer and you say "I don't recognize you as a bricklayer anymore and will no longer refer to you as such." And I keep on laying bricks, I don't care about what you said and the work keeps getting done. Not a SINGLE Homeworld Clan on the Grand Council took Terra. Clan Wolf did. Clan Wolf is on the Council of Six and is trading Bloodnames with other Clans which shouldn't be allowed right? The Home Clans went their way and the IS Clans went theirs. You can smash your keyboard until your fingers bleed, it won't change the outcome.

The former Clan Wolf was Abjured by the supreme ruling body of the Clans following the established rules, and it did not contest its Abjurement. It is no longer Clan, no matter how it calls itself. It does not matter what deals it makes with other Inner Sphere factions, even if some of them are of a former Clan origin too.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 19 September 2023 - 01:01 PM, said:

Have you actually read the relevant BattleTech books, or did you just check Sarna?



The former Clan Wolf was Abjured by the supreme ruling body of the Clans following the established rules, and it did not contest its Abjurement. It is no longer Clan, no matter how it calls itself. It does not matter what deals it makes with other Inner Sphere factions, even if some of them are of a former Clan origin too.

I always reference the books. I NEVER use Sarna as a source and have denounced it years ago. Now I haven't had a good BT argument in years so my memory might be hazy so let me confirm that we are on the same page since you decided to question my sources. List the source material you are referring to regarding this Abjurement you are talking about.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 01:25 PM, said:

I always reference the books. I NEVER use Sarna as a source and have denounced it years ago. Now I haven't had a good BT argument in years so my memory might be hazy so let me confirm that we are on the same page since you decided to question my sources. List the source material you are referring to regarding this Abjurement you are talking about.

The Abjurement of Clan Wolf, of course.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 19 September 2023 - 01:28 PM, said:

The Abjurement of Clan Wolf, of course.

Yes I know that but since YOU asked me if I read the actual books, I want you to reference the book detailing the Abjurement that we are speaking about

[simon1812]

What does this mean for MWO?

[IronClaws]

I guess MW2 teased the ilClan all those years ago.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

Yes I know that but since YOU asked me if I read the actual books, I want you to reference the book detailing the Abjurement that we are speaking about

What book did you use to read about the Abjurement of the Wolves?

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 19 September 2023 - 08:13 PM, said:

What book did you use to read about the Abjurement of the Wolves?

I asked YOU first to list YOUR source material because I read it in the Wars of Reaving and if we are talking about the same book, I know you are wrong.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 20 September 2023 - 05:48 AM.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 20 September 2023 - 05:29 AM, said:

I asked YOU first to list YOUR source material because I read it in the Wars of Reaving and if we are talking about the same book, I know you are wrong.

Actually, the Abjurement of Clan Wolf is very clearly described there.

[Odanan]

Duke Falcon, on 16 September 2023 - 11:14 AM, said:

Please tell me, that it's campaign would culminate in Operation DRAGONSLAYER! <= Search for Sarna guys! It were the battle of Luthien, really nice, small party time happening, you know... With the engine of MW5 that battle is a MUST!

It needs to end with Tukayyid! Imagine you are one of those of Alpha Galaxy fighting to the death against endless waves of enemies.

Duke Falcon, on 16 September 2023 - 11:14 AM, said:

Smoke Jaguars DID NOT used atomics. Those were Clan Wolverine. Jags "just" used orbital bombardment.

This ^
(but yes, they are baddies)

EDIT: hopefully, MW5: Clans will have some new chassis (looking at you, Fire Moth!).

OH, and hopefully, the DLCs will be campaigns for other Clans.

Edited by Odanan, 20 September 2023 - 08:28 AM.

[ShootterMcGavin]

Can't wait to dish out some peace, freedom, and justice to my new empire

Edited by ShootterMcGavin, 20 September 2023 - 08:08 AM.

[martian]

ShootterMcGavin, on 20 September 2023 - 08:07 AM, said:

Can't wait to dish out some peace, freedom, and justice to my new empire

With "my new empire", do you mean the CSJ OZ?

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 20 September 2023 - 06:49 AM, said:

Actually, the Abjurement of Clan Wolf is very clearly described there.

Exactly which is why you are wrong.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 20 September 2023 - 08:35 AM, said:

Exactly which is why you are wrong.

So tell me how my description of the Clan Wolf Abjuration contradicts the book.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 20 September 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

So tell me how my description of the Clan Wolf Abjuration contradicts the book.

Is there anything you wish to change before I counter?

[ShootterMcGavin]

Sweet jumpin Jehoshaphat

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 20 September 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

So tell me how my description of the Clan Wolf Abjuration contradicts the book.

Argument -

Quote

For the Grand Council of the Clans, the Abjured Wolves are no different from any other Inner Sphere faction. They lost their Clan status decades before they arrived to Terra.

Rebuttal - The IS Clans did not recognize the authority of, no longer cared about and voted to no longer communicate with, the GC/Homeworld Clans which is why they formed their own Council of Six Clans. WoR confirms this.


Argument -

Quote

That former Clan Wolf did not dare to refuse the decision of the Grand Coucil of the Clans, thus accepting the decision Abjuring it.

Rebuttal - You say did not dare, I say did not bother. There are 3 things to consider:


1. Clan Wolf was already making the exodus to the Inner Sphere when the "Abjuration" was declared, which WoR confirms [a].
2. The Abjuration was not done properly which WoR confirms [b]
3. As aforementioned, Clan Wolf no longer recognized the authority of the GC [c].

Additionally, I don't recall a single instance of an Abjuration being overturned in any fashion, either politically or through combat. I haven't read the books in a very long time so maybe you can refute that. I'll wait.

Maybe you want to make a have a full on debate about the issue. If so, I suggest a different thread so we don't bog up this one that's for the DLC announcement.