87 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Tried LRM builds again.

I try to get my own locks, ECM everywhere, that makes getting locks too ******* long. Get a lock, instant juke from the stream. Fire a stream, AMS iron-dome shuts it down.

I can feel the hate of the comp with it straight ******* away. Might as well just delete it from game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 September 2023 - 08:26 PM.

[martian]

The6thMessenger, on 16 September 2023 - 08:24 PM, said:

Tried LRM builds again.

I try to get my own locks, ECM everywhere, that makes getting locks too ******* long. Get a lock, instant juke from the stream. Fire a stream, AMS iron-dome shuts it down.

I can feel the hate of the comp with it straight ******* away. Might as well just delete it from game.

Should PGI offer the Longbow in MWO in Autumn ...



... maybe LRM boost (or better say "unnerf") would be suitable.

[w0qj]

Perhaps the impaired LRM/Missile lock should be shortened (by half?) when under ECM interference?

However, MWO should add AMS hardpoint back to all Legendary mechs, otherwise trouble...

martian, on 16 September 2023 - 11:28 PM, said:

Should PGI offer the Longbow in MWO in Autumn ...

... maybe LRM boost (or better say "unnerf") would be suitable.

Edited by w0qj, 16 September 2023 - 11:31 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

well I tried some LRM lights troll builds
which ended in ATM

because ATM do good hit against even lights, let alone assaults

of course ATM not long range weapon

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 17 September 2023 - 01:07 AM.

[martian]

w0qj, on 16 September 2023 - 11:30 PM, said:

However, MWO should add AMS hardpoint back to all Legendary mechs, otherwise trouble...

Why? People know what hardpoints are on the 'Mech that they are buying.

[JediPanther]

Welcome to trying to lrm before going back to laser and guns. Don't bother with all that bap,uav,tag,naec and artemis junk to try and get your own locks. Too many ecms and mechs with dual,tripile or four ams around. Use all that new found tonnage for a bigger gun or faster engine. Fun isn't it having your game play options removed by both soft and hard counters that weigh far less than your own weapon?

[ScrapIron Prime]

LRMs work best as a direct fire weapon under 500m. Think of them as a low-tonnage, lousy LBX weapon that can sometimes fire indirect. Mix them with a fistful of medium lasers and go to town.

The velocity nerf was a bit overkill, I think, as this punishes the weapon direct fire as well. But direct fire and indirect velocity are the same number, so they can't just buff or nerf ONE of them.

[LordNothing]

the big problem with lerms is that the window of opportunity is narrower than the time it takes to get a lock and walk your missiles in. this turns it into more of an area denial weapon than something you can fight with.

people who dont want to get lermed always run derp, and people who run missiles always go for target decay, and the end result is no net gain for either the lermer or lermee. i think were relying too much on radar derp and not enough on ams. buff ams, and nerf radar derp, replace target decay for lock time (and perhaps move a couple of the nodes to ams). enhance the soft counter but reduce the hard counter. its kind of silly that an equipment that costs tonnage, space and has either ammo or heat is less effective than a node that doesnt cost all that much of anything to enable.

also kind of wish we could unify spread and ammo nodes. and make them more universal. such as to apply to all weapons or anything with spread including things like hags and racs. not a big fan of nodes that exist for just one purpose. and move the heat management skills to its own tab for better organization. this is less about lerms though, its more of a while you're in there kind of thing.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 September 2023 - 09:43 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 16 September 2023 - 08:24 PM, said:

Tried LRM builds again.

I try to get my own locks, ECM everywhere, that makes getting locks too ******* long. Get a lock, instant juke from the stream. Fire a stream, AMS iron-dome shuts it down.

I can feel the hate of the comp with it straight ******* away. Might as well just delete it from game.

I don't think comp had anything to do with the LRM hate, ECM being everywhere is a product of PGI's power creep with regards to ECM and adding all the variants of mechs that had it in TT. AMS iron-dome is a result of PGI really trying to incentivize taking AMS and over-buffing it and allow it to provide an arms-race level effect in that it stacks without diminishing returns and incentivizes boating more LRMs to try to get through the AMS (thus the arms-race). AMS is borked because they wanted it to be "realistic" by targeting any missile within range rather than only missiles targeting you, and RoF actually mattering in how many missiles it destroys. AMS was borked a bit in MW4 too since it always baleted the first missile "pack" of a volley but luckily mods saved it by making it random per "pack". It also didn't work on dumb fire missiles because that is just silly mechanically to punish dumb firing.

The fact that ECM blocks missile locks is a result of PGI coupling missile locks to radar locks instead of learning from MW4 and tying locks just to holding your reticle on the target for long enough regardless of whether you had detected the mech or not (unless you were in passive radar which itself was a problem, it pushed missile mechs to carry ECM themselves).

Stop blaming comp when it is PGI for poorly designed mechanics and interplay of those mechanics.

Edit: FWIW, MW4 also made it so your reticle HAD to be on the mech itself, not the targeting box to gain locks which made gaining locks a bit harder (and required LOS). MW4 also had it so that when you fired your missiles, if you had your reticle on a bone of that mech (like an arm or leg) that's what the missiles targeted, not just center mass which added a layer to missile targeting that MWO and MW5 by extension just don't have and it's why missiles feel awful in both. Missiles were fire and forget too but that really needs to be dependent on LoS locks

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 September 2023 - 10:07 AM.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 17 September 2023 - 08:26 AM, said:

LRMs work best as a direct fire weapon under 500m. Think of them as a low-tonnage, lousy LBX weapon that can sometimes fire indirect. Mix them with a fistful of medium lasers and go to town.

Would not be better to simply take MRMs instead? MRM-20 is both lighter and smaller than LRM-20 and it also offers better rate-of-fire.

In the current gameplay one can not expect to get too many LRM target locks.

[ScrapIron Prime]

martian, on 17 September 2023 - 10:42 AM, said:

Would not be better to simply take MRMs instead? MRM-20 is both lighter and smaller than LRM-20 and it also offers better rate-of-fire.

In the current gameplay one can not expect to get too many LRM target locks.

It usually is better to take MRM's, yes, and much easier to use with the hard minimum range of lurms. But that's the state of LRM's, boating them won't get you very far. No point getting upset, just adapt.

I adapt with mechs like this one. Get my own locks. Drill and fill. Lighting folks up with laser fire does a pretty darn good job of locking a target.

https://mwo.nav-alph...=9e993d63_ARC-T

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 17 September 2023 - 12:16 PM.

[Ihlrath]

I mean they just did another velocity nerf to them not long ago. Just remove them from the game at this point. We get it, cauldron hates LRMs. Okay okay.

[The6thMessenger]

ScrapIron Prime, on 17 September 2023 - 08:26 AM, said:

The velocity nerf was a bit overkill, I think, as this punishes the weapon direct fire as well. But direct fire and indirect velocity are the same number, so they can't just buff or nerf ONE of them.

Talked to some people in MWO Comp Discord.

"But it's balanced in comp!"

Yeah, no ****. How is the casual mid-level tho?

[VeeOt Dragon]

sadly PGI only listens to the top 1%-5% of players and not the entire player base most of the time. the vast majority of the vocal LRM haters are in T1. (though it is nice to see a T1 that doesn't hate on em constantly)

LRMs actually were rather well balanced back before the huge nerf when they added the dual fire arc (that itself was a good idea the rest wasn't). not only did they further nerf LRM but they also took the nerf hammer to every system that helped them. hell Artemis isn't even worth the tonnage or space for something that only works half the time (better to just carry a tag instead does the same thing for less tonnage plus still cuts ECM until they feel they need to nerf that out as well)

for the Op might i suggest this....

Hunchback-4J (2 LRM-15 (6t ammo), 4 MLs, L-AMS, running an XL-245 with 2 DHS, BAP and Endo)


AE0820h0|Z<2|Cd|[OpX0|4@|4@|E@|E@|E@qX0|i^|i^|[O|_@rP0s>0t`0|[O|[Ou`0|[O|[OvB0|E@w808080

you just have to watch where you missiles are going and if you see there is some heavy AMS mech there try to choose targets away from that mech if you can. also remember that AMS works better against Clan LRM/ATM than IS. its the stream gives the AMS more time to take out the missiles (good way to balance the significant weight and slot difference). not a whole lot you can do about the ECM sadly

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VeeOt Dragon, on 17 September 2023 - 03:31 PM, said:

LRMs actually were rather well balanced

LRMs have never been balanced in this game, not once. They have always been feast or famine weapons.

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2023 - 02:07 PM, said:

Talked to some people in MWO Comp Discord.

"But it's balanced in comp!"

Yeah, no ****. How is the casual mid-level tho?

TBF, comp hasn't really been that competitive for years. The average skill level of players I feel like has dropped over the years and that impacted comp. EmP (before Celyth brought it back without most or all of the other players) being done after absorbing several remnants of several disbanded comp teams was sort of the death knell.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 September 2023 - 06:03 PM.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 17 September 2023 - 12:07 PM, said:

It usually is better to take MRM's, yes, and much easier to use with the hard minimum range of lurms. But that's the state of LRM's, boating them won't get you very far. No point getting upset, just adapt.

I really do not know how PGI imagines selling the Longbow. With the current state of the MWO gameplay, I do not think that many active MWO players would be willing to buy this 'Mech, if they have the personal experience with the difficulties of the LRM use.

[Curccu]

martian, on 16 September 2023 - 11:28 PM, said:

Should PGI offer the Longbow in MWO in Autumn ...
... maybe LRM boost (or better say "unnerf") would be suitable.

Remove ECM and Radar Depr from the game... Eez.

[Meep Meep]

LRM still spank hard but only IF you have a buddy providing locks or are willing to go frontline with the rest of the push and fire over other mechs. The days of hanging back with a mech full of tubes and making it rain are long gone. When you look up the gud streamers videos and they are crowing about a 3000+ damage game its because one of their lance was rolling around in something with narc and tag and supplying locks.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 17 September 2023 - 10:57 PM, said:

LRM still spank hard but only IF you have a buddy providing locks or are willing to go frontline with the rest of the push and fire over other mechs. The days of hanging back with a mech full of tubes and making it rain are long gone. When you look up the gud streamers videos and they are crowing about a 3000+ damage game its because one of their lance was rolling around in something with narc and tag and supplying locks.

Yep sure stream highlights.. then they get solaris city and are happy to get 300 dmg.

[The6thMessenger]

Meep Meep, on 17 September 2023 - 10:57 PM, said:

LRM still spank hard but only IF you have a buddy providing locks or are willing to go frontline with the rest of the push and fire over other mechs. The days of hanging back with a mech full of tubes and making it rain are long gone. When you look up the gud streamers videos and they are crowing about a 3000+ damage game its because one of their lance was rolling around in something with narc and tag and supplying locks.

You mean a playstyle that is largely passive? Yuck, no thanks.

Sure, fine, it works. But hanging back and lurming isn't for me. It's quite ironic that people urge getting one's own locks, yet it is so utterly weak and pointless, they just further incentivized such a behavior.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 September 2023 - 09:58 AM, said:

Stop blaming comp when it is PGI for poorly designed mechanics and interplay of those mechanics.

Sorry no.

Don't get me wrong, PGI has a massive piece of this **** pie, but guess what, PGI listens to comp -- they have, to a degree, have an influence with this. It's you guys that complained about homing weapons to no end, so where did the homing-weapons complaint went? The lock-on cone reduction, the dual-arc system, pretty much every nerf to the homing weapons -- the LRMs under the sun, is by people like you. ****, they're doing it right now, with the new velocity nerf.

And guess what, right now, is it the casuals that influence the balance? No, it is the comp, the gulag cauldron, that is apparently heavily editorialized IIRC. So guess what, I will lay the god ******* damn blame on the comp.

Now, okay, I will concede, comp does a lot of good things. But that does not exempt them from the bad, and the inaction, such as say the much-needed UAC rework, and a good RAC rework.

martian, on 17 September 2023 - 08:49 PM, said:

I really do not know how PGI imagines selling the Longbow. With the current state of the MWO gameplay, I do not think that many active MWO players would be willing to buy this 'Mech, if they have the personal experience with the difficulties of the LRM use.

Solution is simple -- they don't, at least not in MWO.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 September 2023 - 02:03 AM.