137 replies to this topic

[Nine-Ball]

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 11:16 AM, said:

Some people I know can do that with just 2 snubs... try those XMPLs without snubbies...

I've played with and against several players capable of attaining a 327 match score (or average way above that) with just snubs -- they rather make it look easy using their small size and jumpjets (and speed) to consistenly ambush the enemies and fire off their snubs without taking any return fire.

But as an 85 ton assault going 80kph -- its either drop the snubs and up my engine from 365 light to 400 light so I can hit 85kph, or I keep my snubs cause they work well with 6-Xpulse as I've stated several times before. Best would be AC/20 but sadly I can't mount that on my arms nor does the 3M have the -100% jam quirk of the 1D.

Edited by Nine-Ball, 11 October 2023 - 11:54 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

No no no do not **** my sentence (My bad if my tertiary language English isn't good enough for you to understand what I tried to say.). Lets try again.

You think that's bad, wait till the dude replaces entirely what you said in a quote. And chase and harrass you to other threads, and nitpick you about an innocuous bit of information that wouldn't be known at all due to obscurity because not everyone uses such bad equipment like SHS to know or care to know such information; and dismisses you as highly-incompetent by making mountain out of a small error, that does not really detract from your point and can be just politely corrected, in an act of desperation to project inadequacy and have some semblance of reputation by taking you down in comparison.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2023 - 07:17 AM, said:

XPLs won't be good until the DPS is worth the risk of the facetime, full stop. So unless your suggestion involves buffing the DPS then yeah, they won't get better.

Even RAC5s at 10.912 DPS, and the RAC2 6.5475 already sucks despite monstrous upfront DPS.

Dude complained that +70% DPS from the MPL is OP, but held back by heat. So maybe it's balanced then? And maybe the other XPLs can do with +70% DPS and balanced by high heat as well since they are for Burst DPS? And +70% because the dude likes symmetry.

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

Chainfire is one of worst thing you can do. Sure you get "some" damage to light but not enough to make it 2nd guess if that engagement is worth the risk or even kill it before it kills you.

I was just reading back, but dude seriously said that? Dude straight up justified chainfiring lasers to leg lights?

The dude essentially said that the best way to dealing with lights is to not use your entire payload at the fastest way possible to render them onto the past tense? What kind of lights is the dude dealing over there? Locusts at 48 KPH?

The reason why PPFLD is best damage is that players can also react to incoming damage and twist to spread it around to avoid getting a component focused. In the case of lasers, the shorter the beam, the less chance it can be spread around, and focused in a component, and VS lights, it has higher DPS to make glancing blows accrue damage faster to a component.

I think MG is effective against lights' leg has something to do with spread that makes it less reliant on precision, not just because continuous fire. Clan MGs for example has 0.84 spread, CHMG at 1.3, CLMG at 0.24; to put that into perspective, CLB20X is at 1, CLB10X is at 0.9, CLB5X is at 0.4, and CLB2X is at 0.25.

It's less effective spread around sure, but masses of MGs got you covered, and a light's leg, the locust and the fleas can only take so much.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 October 2023 - 12:18 AM.

[MechMaster059]

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

No no no do not **** my sentence...

I see now, you said:
"If you ask me is it easier to leg light mech with machine guns or SRMs/PPCs/Pulse lasers I will say SRMs/PPCs/Pulse lasers."

but you meant:
"If you ask me: Is it easier to leg light mech with machine guns vs SRMs/PPCs/Pulse lasers? I will say SRMs/PPCs/Pulse lasers."

1. Machine guns seem pretty good for legging mechs. I know this by having my mechs legged by an annoying LCT-1V on several occasions.

2. This is not an apples to apples comparison. Machine Guns have a short range. Imagine every standard laser is now continuous fire.

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

... than continues DPS like machineguns, RACs or Xpulses ...

I disagree with machineguns being bad against light mechs.

Yes, RACs suck against light mechs because of the spin-up time, leading the target, and high heat. Imagine no spin-up time and for the weight of a single RAC5 you now have 2xLL that instantly fire and their heat is normalized over their entire 4.5s cycle time instead of instantly paying the heat cost up front.

XPLs are decent against light mechs, though standard PLs are probably better.

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

Chainfire is one of worst thing you can do. ...

And yes I say skill, some people can't hit fast lights, they do not have SKILL required to do so.

I should clarify what I mean by chain-fire. If I have a mech with say 4xML I'll have a chain-fire weapon group defined for them but no, I don't sit there waiting for 1 to completely finish firing before firing the next. I'll press the mouse/key to fire 1 of them, and only wait between ¼ to ½ of the laser duration time before I fire the 2nd and so forth. Sometimes I'll spam the chain-fire group to fire 2-3 of the lasers very rapidly. So this is more of a rapid-fire chain-fire rather than just sitting there waiting for each weapon to take it's turn in the chain-fire group.

I find this method of firing lasers FAR FAR SUPERIOR for fighting against lights than alpha-fire. If I have a clear shot I can just spam the weapon group or even alpha if I choose but if the light mech is zipping around or running perpendicular to me at full speed, chain-fire ensures I'll get at least 2-3 hits with my lasers.

You can sit there and be flippant and say people who miss alphas "don't have skill" but I see it over and over when spectating, players constantly just barely missing their shots and I want to scream at the screen "USE CHAIN-FIRE DAMN IT". Once again, you chose how fast or how slow you fire a chain-fire weapon group. This allows you to make micro-adjustments to your aim when a light is zipping around. When you alpha, it's all or nothing, if you hit great, if not, you just wasted a cooldown and a TON of heat.

Curccu, on 11 October 2023 - 06:04 AM, said:

If similar skilled lights duel burst damage light will win against continues DPS light. This I have witnessed so many times.
pir-2 > pir-1 in duel, easily.

I believe you. We're not talking about light vs light here. Imagine an laser vomit Dire Wolf that can sit there and take a pounding from a light mech while spraying out continuous fire laser damage against it:

DWF-PRIME:
A[2M<:`1p;1TE7|RR|l^|l^|l^q;1RE7|RR|l^|l^|l^r41QE7|mB|mB|fB|lB|lBs41UE7|mB|mB|fB|lB|lBt<1VE7u<1WE7|RR|RRv<0PE7|RRw<09090

-17.5% heat quirk.

2xUAC10, 4xERLL, 4xERML, all weapons arm mounted for better tracking of lights.
(Could alpha 2xERLL + 4xERML without HSL)

or

2xUAC2, 8xERLL but this would have major HSL issues.

Quicksilver Kalasa made no mention about how his proposal would royally screw over boating continuous fire ERLL because there's no way around HSL limits for continuous fire weapons. He offers no solution or analysis regarding this problem.

Imagine a light zipping around and 2xERLL + 4xERML arm mounted lasers are continuously burning on it with a -17.5% heat quirk and their heat normalized over their entire cycle time instead of being paid up front. It would be suicidal for a light mech to attempt to fight this.

=====

Widowmaker1981, on 11 October 2023 - 06:45 AM, said:

...

The reason is that a single click is a lot more possible to get right than the continuous track required by long duration lasers. ...

We got John Wick up in here. Kid 1-shots lights every time doesn't he. Never misses. Even vs a Flea running at 176kph. No problemo for Widomaker1981.

Moving on...

=====

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2023 - 03:34 AM, said:

... if you think DPS is better to combat lights ...

I never made a general statement like this. Pulse lasers are very strong against lights yet they're not continuous fire weapons.

I merely stated that making ALL stander lasers continuous fire would make light mechs obsolete because it would become too easy to guarantee damage upon them and lower the cost of missing them.

Other major issues you totally failed to consider with your game-wrecking proposal:

- The laser duration and cooldown skills/quirks would no longer work for standard lasers.

- How would HSL be handled since continuous fire weapons can't get around HSL?

- Light mechs often can only spare enough weight to boat 4-5 medium lasers or 2 large lasers. Unlike heavies and assaults which can withstand some punishment, face-time is extremely dangerous for light mechs. Making lasers continuous fire would ruin them for use by light mechs as now the face-time requirement would be dramatically increased. Another way in which your proposal would royally screw over light mechs.

=====

The6thMessenger, on 11 October 2023 - 02:40 PM, said:

...and nitpick you about an innocuous bit of information that wouldn't be known at all due to obscurity because not everyone uses such bad equipment like SHS to know or care to know such information.

You're supposedly tier 1 and have been playing this game MUCH longer than I have. You have nearly 8K posts on this forum yet...

All you had to do was go in-game, look at one of the store mechs which come pre-built with standard heat sinks and mouse over one of the standard heat sinks to see their information displayed. You could have also gone into the mech lab and switched the heat sink type on one of the mechs you own. You were too lazy to do any of this, yet started a thread about them.

You didn't know that clan lasers can only get -10% laser duration through skills and made your biggest epic fail response in this thread as a result.

Then you brush it off as "innocuous bit of information". You're sloppy Messenger and in no position to offer or critique game change proposals.


=====
Guys, it's getting boring replying to all your theory-crafting about how you easily 1-shot the legs out from under light mechs. I know fast-cycle alpha weapons like Pulse lasers and SRM are very good against lights, but this stuff is cluttering up my very important thread so I'm going to have to stop replying to it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, I suggest you create a new thread for your proposal. Here are some ideas for a title:

"A proposal for a massive amount of effort reworking a weapon type that's working just fine"

"Ankle-biting lights are annoying, lets make it suicidal against laser vomit heavies and assaults"

"Lets make JJing into the sky even more dangerous for light mechs"

[Widowmaker1981]

MechMaster059, on 11 October 2023 - 11:13 PM, said:

We got John Wick up in here. Kid 1-shots lights every time doesn't he. Never misses. Even vs a Flea running at 176kph. No problemo for Widomaker1981.

Moving on...

You're getting pretty defensive here. I never said 100% hit rate. I said its easier to kill lights with PPFLD, because you click once and, IF you hit, all your damage goes into one component, which usually breaks immediately, either killing or crippling the mech.

With lasers, you end up spreading the damage over every component and missing with half of it. So even though you are more likely to do *some* damage with lasers, you are more likely to do *effective* damage with PPFLD.

I know you probably feel like you are being dogpiled on, but maybe consider that, when multiple people are telling you over and over that DPS / facetime weapons are bad against lights, that maybe they are right and you are not?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 11 October 2023 - 11:13 PM, said:

I never made a general statement like this. Pulse lasers are very strong against lights yet they're not continuous fire weapons.

I merely stated that making ALL stander lasers continuous fire would make light mechs obsolete because it would become too easy to guarantee damage upon them and lower the cost of missing them.

Sustained or burst DPS weapons are better against fat mechs who don't have as much mobility to dodge shots. Widowmaker is correct, I've never known anyone who thinks that things like standard lasers or dakka make lights ez mode to deal with. Even with streaks, if you are chain firing them they are simply less effective because lights have the mobility to get out of tight situations better than any weight class and that includes continuous beam damage (especially since the whole point is that it has significantly less damage per tick).

MechMaster059, on 11 October 2023 - 11:13 PM, said:

Other major issues you totally failed to consider with your game-wrecking proposal:

- The laser duration and cooldown skills/quirks would no longer work for standard lasers.

- How would HSL be handled since continuous fire weapons can't get around HSL?

- Light mechs often can only spare enough weight to boat 4-5 medium lasers or 2 large lasers. Unlike heavies and assaults which can withstand some punishment, face-time is extremely dangerous for light mechs. Making lasers continuous fire would ruin them for use by light mechs as now the face-time requirement would be dramatically increased. Another way in which your proposal would royally screw over light mechs.

See these are better arguments. That said, cooldown quirks also don't impact RACs, flamers, and MGs either so its not like they are alone there. I'm sure there would be a way to convert them, but it brings up an interesting problem for some weapons with the skill tree. I don't see that as a showstopper though really.

HSL would be similar to RACs, and I had thought about that recently when thinking about the limitations of ghost heat itself. I don't think there is really anything we can do about this given the game is in maintanence mode but if there is ever an MWO2, it is definitely worth thinking about something that handles this better. Personally, I don't like heat as the solution, just make it so that weapons have diminishing damage returns if you mount past a certain limit. So yeah, you could mount 5 LL or something, but that fifth LL lowers the damage output of each large laser such that you only get 90% of its original damage ANY time you fire it. So instead of doing 5 LL worth of damage, you only get 4.5. Not set on that, but I don't like the heat spike because of the UX complications around that but also if you get a bit of lag or the server gets a hitch currently, and sometimes you could just end up shutdown forever for just slightly bad timing, just seems rough is the goal is just to reduce the power of boating.

Now as for lights, I don't think most lights really bother with standard lasers. Pulse is typically the goto whether it be SPLs, MPLs, MGs, LPPCs, Snubs, or others. I could be wrong though as I haven't played comp in years and I feel like the light class has had a much less consistent meta, but hey. I mean you could just leave standard lasers alone and focus on making pulse more unique, but I feel like making the light tonnage option the DPS oriented weapon is the better approach if only because it adds a bit of tonnage requirements to Clan laser vomit particularly (IS laser vomit is more focused around stacking LL/LPLs and potentially mounting a few mediums to round it out) but also makes the barrier for entry into the DPS side of things easier which is a thing I believe that hampered pulse in MW4 Mercs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 October 2023 - 12:53 PM.

[Magnus Santini]

Wanted to thank Mechmaster and the debate partners for a very interesting read. The math is a little past me but I learned more about heat sinks and clan weapons than I knew before.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

. . . Now as for lights, I don't think most lights really bother with standard lasers. Pulse is typically the goto whether it be SPLs, MPLs, MGs, LPPCs, Snubs, or others. I could be wrong though as I haven't played comp , , ,

Pulse lasers are a brawl weapon. Pulse lasers rule because the light does not have time to have the butler bring the target, taste it with the smallest spoon, wipe with the napkin, and retire behind a rock. Often have to exit or twist between the second and third pulses. The bigger lights with up to 6 hardpoints can fly medium lasers because they don't have the tonnage for MPLs. But they cannot brawl well with them. They can do the peek thing, which I have seen used in streams a lot with ERMLs and mixed loadouts. I understand that is a meta thing but it is not brawling just because the range is medium. I think it is meta because T1s are used to that playstyle, and whatever they do is more effective (mostly aim well). I haven't played comp either, so I am with you on that. Have used spiders to jump-erll but I can't hit much.
Someone mentioned that PLs were the basis for the stats used in XPLs. MPLs were mainly balanced back then against medium lasers, SPLs and SRMs. Because lights engage at short range and those are the weight/tonnage choices. I don't think the balance was satisfactory and not sure it was ever reviewed. MPLs are very hot for their damage compared to MLs. Lights don't get to cover anything with extra heat sinks, and max engagement time is until they get too hot. I am not sure there is a solution which allows all existing mechs, weapons, and playstyles to be balanced. But I appreciate everyone who is thinking about it and trying.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Magnus Santini, on 12 October 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

I haven't played comp either, so I am with you on that. Have used spiders to jump-erll but I can't hit much.

To be fair, I forgot to add the "havent played comp in several years", I did play comp way back before the game went into maintenance mode.

Long range lights have been a thing before, but they have been far and few between. I mean EmP used 5K Spiders with ERLL and LMGs in one of the world championships so it's not like it hasn't be a thing. However typically they are more harassment (mind games) and being a deterrent for lights against some of their more vulnerable mechs. It's a playstyle that hasn't been really in fashion once cERPPC poptarts made a come back and things like the LMG Cheetah came into the picture.

That said, comp typically emphasizes the shorter duration for lights even more so than QP because exposure is more unforgiving in comp so minimizing exposure or making sure you are able to punish that do over-expose with significant damage, something lights aren't really capable of doing. I think right now the big thing is iERSL and iMPL combinations with the iERSL helping overcome the hefty tonnage tax that comes with iMPLs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 October 2023 - 01:04 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Widowmaker1981, on 12 October 2023 - 05:08 AM, said:

... IF you hit, all your damage goes into one component, ...

Well that's the challenge isn't it, rolling the dice and going all-in on an alpha strike vs a small and very maneuverable target. You're very dismissive of the price that is paid by missing as if it's of little concern and unlikely to happen.

None of you seem to grasp the degree to which medium lasers can be boated and even Clan ERLL as well. Clan laser vomit mechs would be able to spew a wall of unrelenting laser fire out to 400m for a relatively low weight cost. (2xERLL + 4xERML for the cost of a single AC20) For the weight of a single RAC2 an IS mech can boat 8xML. None of your theory-crafting takes this into account.

I've explained over and over why continuous fire lasers would be MUCH more dangerous to lights than their current implementation, especially when boated, but you're not able to grasp the points. You continually muddy the waters with irrelevant posts about how good other weapons are against lights.

Widowmaker1981, on 12 October 2023 - 05:08 AM, said:

With lasers, you end up spreading the damage over every component and missing with half of it. So even though you are more likely to do *some* damage with lasers, you are more likely to do *effective* damage with PPFLD.

Durr hurr hurr, I'm not smart enough to realize that missing half the time with a continuous fire laser wouldn't matter nearly as much because the heat cost would be spread out and there's no cooldown to wait for.

Widowmaker1981, on 12 October 2023 - 05:08 AM, said:

I know you probably feel like you are being dogpiled on, but maybe consider that, when multiple people are telling you over and over that DPS / facetime weapons are bad against lights, that maybe they are right and you are not?

You mean the usual forum poop-throwers and glib theory-crafters with horrible ideas that would wreck the game? Why would I give a crap what such people think? Their low quality posting is par for the course on game forums.

=====

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

... I've never known anyone who thinks that things like standard lasers or dakka make lights ez mode to deal with. ...

I never said standard lasers make lights "ez mode to deal with". I said continuous fire lasers would be much stronger against lights than their current implementation. This is why it's not really productive to go around in circles with a poster like you. You have your own ideas about what I said floating around in your head rather than paying attention.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

See these are better arguments.

Why am I having to make them? What you propose would be a MASSIVE amount of effort with huge side-effects. Why didn't YOU think of any of these things?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

... I don't see that as a showstopper though really.

But why do all this rework at all? Lasers are fine as they are.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

... Personally, I don't like heat as the solution, just make it so that weapons have diminishing damage returns if you mount past a certain limit. So yeah, you could mount 5 LL or something, but that fifth LL lowers the damage output of each large laser such that you only get 90% of its original damage ANY time you fire it. ...

Now you're talking about implementing diminishing returns on weapons... riiigghtt. It's clear to me now that you're off in your own little world Quicksilver and aren't really capable of analyzing the full implications of your proposals. You're one of these people who's more interested in cooking up ideas than solving problems.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

Now as for lights, I don't think most lights really bother with standard lasers.

Well there you have it folks... according to Quicksilver my FLE-20 with 5xML doesn't exist:
A;;:2:F0|3dpB0|i^|^<2qB0|i^|0I|Y?r:0|i^|Y?|Y?s:0|i^|Y?|Y?t?0u?0v40w202020

Lights don't bother with standard lasers? What? They sure as hell wouldn't if your proposal was implemented.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

Pulse is typically the goto whether it be SPLs, MPLs, ...

Lights have trouble mounting MPLs because of the weight. So no, Pulse lasers are not the "go to" for light mechs. If lights go lasers, they usually boat either medium lasers or small/micro lasers, though I have seen Fleas that boat SPLs.

I think I know what I'm dealing with now Quicksilver. You're an "idea" guy, not a "problem solver" guy. I'm probably going to have to stop replying to you because you're not grounded in reality and will just keep proposing weird new ideas ad nauseum..

=====

Magnus Santini, on 12 October 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

...
Someone mentioned that PLs were the basis for the stats used in XPLs.

I said PLs SHOULD HAVE BEEN the basis for the stats used in XPLs. Instead XPLs were given their own DPS distribution that is de-coupled from PLs.

Magnus Santini, on 12 October 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

MPLs were mainly balanced back then against medium lasers, SPLs and SRMs. Because lights engage at short range and those are the weight/tonnage choices. I don't think the balance was satisfactory and not sure it was ever reviewed.

Well PLs sure have been around a long time for their not to have been much rebalancing done to them. (AFAIK the most recent balance change was reducing the damage on iSPL from 5 down to 4 which was a good change.)

Magnus Santini, on 12 October 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

MPLs are very hot for their damage compared to MLs.

MPLs have BETTER damage / heat than ML or ERML, as do LPL compared to LL and ERLL.

Magnus Santini, on 12 October 2023 - 11:40 AM, said:

...
But I appreciate everyone who is thinking about it and trying.

Thank you Magnus.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 12 October 2023 - 04:30 PM, said:

Why am I having to make them? What you propose would be a MASSIVE amount of effort with huge side-effects. Why didn't YOU think of any of these things?

But why do all this rework at all? Lasers are fine as they are.

TBH, I think everyone overestimates the effects of this. However it does allow much more wiggle room in balancing pulse as there is no competition for the role of burst alpha hitscan weapon at that point, which is the problem I'm specifically trying to solve: weapon identity overlap. I don't know about fine either, lasers are an absolute mess. We effectively have 8 LL Stalkers like this is MW4 lol.

MechMaster059, on 12 October 2023 - 04:30 PM, said:

Now you're talking about implementing diminishing returns on weapons... riiigghtt. It's clear to me now that you're off in your own little world Quicksilver and aren't really capable of analyzing the full implications of your proposals. You're one of these people who's more interested in cooking up ideas than solving problems.

No, pretty sure its you, who doesn't even understand this game or how you play it.

MechMaster059, on 12 October 2023 - 04:30 PM, said:

Well there you have it folks... according to Quicksilver my FLE-20 with 5xML doesn't exist:

A;;:2:F0|3dpB0|i^|^<2qB0|i^|0I|Y?r:0|i^|Y?|Y?s:0|i^|Y?|Y?t?0u?0v40w202020

Lights don't bother with standard lasers? What? They sure as hell wouldn't if your proposal was implemented.

Lights have trouble mounting MPLs because of the weight. So no, Pulse lasers are not the "go to" for light mechs. If lights go lasers, they usually boat either medium lasers or small/micro lasers, though I have seen Fleas that boat SPLs.

Just because you take them doesn't mean your build is good. Yes, a lot of lights can't go full 5/6 MPL like the ol FS9-S did, that's where iERSLs come into play, similar range, same recycle time. Now of course these would be gone, but again, that's the point of freeing up the competition is that they don't have to necessarily be bound to near the standard lasers because they fulfill a different role. It does expose an issue in general with this game though where weapons have tonnage breakpoints that are often too high for the mechs that use them.

MechMaster059, on 12 October 2023 - 04:30 PM, said:

I think I know what I'm dealing with now Quicksilver. You're an "idea" guy, not a "problem solver" guy. I'm probably going to have to stop replying to you because you're not grounded in reality and will just keep proposing weird new ideas ad nauseum..

Wat

[The6thMessenger]

Widowmaker1981, on 12 October 2023 - 05:08 AM, said:

You're getting pretty defensive here.
...


I know you probably feel like you are being dogpiled on, but maybe consider that, when multiple people are telling you over and over that DPS / facetime weapons are bad against lights, that maybe they are right and you are not?

Dude already mockingly replaced what you said. There isn't really enough maturity coming from the dude to have a decent discussion. Just ignore 'em.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 05:14 PM, said:

No, pretty sure its you, who doesn't even understand this game or how you play it.


....

Wat

Same point as above. There isn't really enough maturity coming from the dude to have a decent discussion. Just ignore 'em.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

Now as for lights, I don't think most lights really bother with standard lasers. Pulse is typically the goto whether it be SPLs, MPLs, MGs, LPPCs, Snubs, or others.

There's a big element of safety involved, and the basic/ER med lasers are pretty good with that so it's pretty common for lights to pack them. Yes, they will be bad in leg-chomping, but basic peek-poke is easier to do. In fact, 4x ERML is my go to for my Stealth PB, not that I'm effective at it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 01:01 PM, said:

That said, comp typically emphasizes the shorter duration for lights even more so than QP because exposure is more unforgiving in comp so minimizing exposure or making sure you are able to punish that do over-expose with significant damage, something lights aren't really capable of doing.

Yes, thank you.

T1 also tries to emulate the comp environment with regards to exposure and aim -- but fails at it, because solo-pugs are disorganized as hell. Still the PPFLD meta, minimizing incoming and maximizing outgoing damage is still valid, and if you play like comp you often succeed like comp.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 October 2023 - 05:28 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 12 October 2023 - 05:24 PM, said:

There's a big element of safety involved, and the basic/ER med lasers are pretty good with that so it's pretty common for lights to pack them. Yes, they will be bad in leg-chomping, but basic peek-poke is easier to do. In fact, 4x ERML is my go to for my Stealth PB, not that I'm effective at it.

I mean don't get me wrong, it does change what you can use to poke on the lighter end of the spectrum, but that's sort of a part that's boned in practically every change because they just don't have enough tonnage to really play around with anything really. If there was one of the biggest problem with the TT construction rules, the highly variant tonnages of mechs would definitely be up there.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 October 2023 - 05:32 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 05:31 PM, said:

I mean don't get me wrong, it does change what you can use to poke on the lighter end of the spectrum, but that's sort of a part that's boned in practically every change because they just don't have enough tonnage to really play around with anything really. If there was one of the biggest problem with the TT construction rules, the highly variant tonnages of mechs would definitely be up there.

Well, that's fair. I blame the rising armor and structure quirks that devalue what lights can do, but I guess that is the inherent issue of being light.

But still, I don't see why pulse builds, that which have twice the tons needed, would be conducive with your point, since they are already tonnage starved so naturally the standard and ER lasers are still valid in that regard.

As in you deal 10 damage with 2x ML from a longer range versus 6 damage with 1x MPL, yet the two has the same tonnage of 2. As short as the MPL's duration, at 0.6s and at essentially 10 DPS per burn, the 2x ML at 0.9 duration even though 50% longer have more damage by +2/3rds, and at 11.11 DPS so it's more front loaded even. The standard lasers are simply more tonnage efficient than pulse ones -- more bang per buck, so unless mechs have tonnage to spare -- and lights often don't, they will and do gravitate to standard lasers.

I talked to Cauldron; Brauer and Tiy0s, about +Damage Quirk. Was shut down, but come on, lets face it, they had been rather loose with the quirks and hardpoints lately, it's kinda funny that they're having cold-feet with the logical conclusion of their power-creep. Sure as hell that paltry-weaponed lights are in need to deal more damage per burn of lasers, than to more frequently burn lasers.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 October 2023 - 06:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 12 October 2023 - 05:41 PM, said:

Well, that's fair. I blame the rising armor and structure quirks that devalue what lights can do, but I guess that is the inherent issue of being light.

But still, I don't see why pulse builds, that which have twice the tons needed, would be conducive with your point, since they are already tonnage starved so naturally the standard and ER lasers are still valid in that regard.

As in you deal 10 damage with 2x ML from a longer range versus 6 damage with 1x MPL, yet the two has the same tonnage of 2. As short as the MPL's duration, at 0.6s and at essentially 10 DPS per burn, the 2x ML at 0.9 duration even though 50% longer have more damage by +2/3rds, and at 11.11 DPS so it's more front loaded even. The standard lasers are simply more tonnage efficient than pulse ones -- more bang per buck, so unless mechs have tonnage to spare -- and lights often don't, they will and do gravitate to standard lasers.

Yeah, they are an unfortunate tonnage. I mean I have crazier ideas around that, but lore folks would probably go ballistic about it. As for the reason I don't with pulse instead, ironically only lore reasons because pulse boats were typically the "accurate" mechs and having been "forced" to play stock only matches in MW4 a few times, it always felt odd to have those just be rapid fire spam mechs. But since no one bothers with stock anyway like they did back then, I guess who cares, redefine pulse to be the DPS weapon.

[Nine-Ball]

The farther you get from the lore the more this slides into Vox Machinae.

And nobody plays that game because its just another Mech Game and not Mechwarrior/Battletech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nine-Ball, on 13 October 2023 - 08:33 AM, said:

The farther you get from the lore the more this slides into Vox Machinae.

And nobody plays that game because its just another Mech Game and not Mechwarrior/Battletech.

I played that game (or tried I should say), it does not remotely feel like Mechwarrior. IMO, lore and TT game rules/mechanics are two separate things.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 October 2023 - 08:42 AM.

[Nine-Ball]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 October 2023 - 08:41 AM, said:

I played that game (or tried I should say), it does not remotely feel like Mechwarrior. IMO, lore and TT game rules/mechanics are two separate things.

Indeed, we can toss out the majority of game mechanical lore from TT because it doesn't work in a FPS. But at the same time there is still some meta that will always be followed because without it this game might as well be Gundam Battle Assault 33 1/3rd.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nine-Ball, on 13 October 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

Gundam Battle Assault 33 1/3rd.

This game has a ways before it ever broaches the feeling of other mecha like Gundam or AC. I don't think anyone is saying that mobility should be super awesome, mechs should all have JJs and be able to hover or anything like that.

[Nine-Ball]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 October 2023 - 09:04 AM, said:

This game has a ways before it ever broaches the feeling of other mecha like Gundam or AC. I don't think anyone is saying that mobility should be super awesome, mechs should all have JJs and be able to hover or anything like that.

I'm just pulling obscure references out of my behind, thats all.

As for something like a straight up damage quirk, no. That wouldn't even fly in a post-jihad timeline. At best you'd just add a capacitor to a PPC for extra damage (they already have that in lore so yeah), maybe invent new types of capacitors for laser weapons that lights can take advantage of -- but regardless they would be something every mech could use.