207 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2023 - 03:59 PM, said:

Frost_Byte said he doesn't know what they're going to nerf, but he personally thingks that they're going to increase their heat.


Research would really help you to avoid saying things that are empirically untrue. Plus, the problem really isn't boating the guns - it's that the guns are so effective, they're totally eclipsing other weapons to the point of distorting player tactics.

It's not even always desirable to Boat HAG40s, for example. Depending on the hardpoints, Laser Builds do very well with a HAG. But regardless of the build, nothing does more damage per hardpoint than a HAG, and for poke and cool builds (as in "most of the meta" builds,) that's a huge benefit - the only reason you're seeing lasers paired with HAGs is to supplement the HAG by adding alpha per tonnage at the expense of heat efficiency.

well my research says Xpulse small and Xmedium are doing too much DPS.... so where does that put your argument?

You were telling me befoer clan pulse are better but according to the stats there Xpulse are better in every way even the large X pulse despite it's shorter range compared to C large pulse.

3 is a heluva lot more damage per second that 1.83 if you take the medium pulse as an example.

By those stats alone it seems to me clan mechs need more armor to compesate for their lower DPS.

Edited by KursedVixen, 31 October 2023 - 04:21 PM.

[foamyesque]

Go actually play Sphere for once before complaining, Vixen.

[Void Angel]

You didn't do any research. You just cherry picked some weapon stats and ignored all other data. Again.
And your wild claims are empirically incorrect. Again!

The LX-PL, for example, is not better than the cLPL in every way, as you can see by the application of a skill called "reading." The cLPL is superior in both tonnage, range - and cooldown. This is all empirical data, which you have gotten wrong. And the latter two advantages are not trivial! Having to stare at your enemy is a huge disadvantage; lasers point both ways, and if you are exposed enough to shoot at the enemy, you can and will be shot at.

The same goes for the smaller X-pulse - and although the weapon ranges are the same, the shorter distance means that the drawbacks of having to stare down your enemy are even greater. That's why X-pulse hasn't eclipsed its substitute weapons like the HAG has, and in fact needed to be buffed. Its original form was terribly underpowered; it looked good on paper (trade heat efficiency and stare time for greater dps,) but pilots testing the weapons live found that mostly they just got pwned.

Now, as Frost_Byte said, there will be more balance passes - so take heart, you could be right! But until you start paying attention to facts that inconvenience your desired conclusion, it can only be by accident.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 31 October 2023 - 01:42 PM, said:

The classic Night Gyr build is twin Gauss + twin ERLLs and the math on that also works for simply going to twin HAG30s... although with the spare tonnage you can go twin 30s + ERLL, do 19 more damage nominal, still come out two tons ahead, and drop that into sinks to help deal with the increased heat load.

You do more damage, but again, it's still more saturated and you still end up with equivalent sustained DPS so it isn't like you are anymore punishing against a push. You also lose the ability to punish lights like you would normally have with double Gauss. IMO it isn't worth it.

Void Angel, on 31 October 2023 - 02:05 PM, said:

And it's too much; the Cauldron almost unanimously thinks so, and anecdotally I'm seeing Gauss Rifles disappear on Clan Battlemechs in favor of the HAG. Heavies carry it, Mediums carry it... it's a hugely powerful poke weapon, and it's warping people's tactics similarly to when we went to 12v12.

The cauldron wants to weaken midrange HAG vomit because that's what bloats mid range alphas and that's where it is most problematic. That's actually the most ironic part of all of this is people want it to focus on the range its the most egregious at. It will hamper long range HAG vomit too which is fine, it didn't need to compete against Gauss at those ranges as good as it does currently.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 October 2023 - 05:17 PM.

[Void Angel]

foamyesque, on 31 October 2023 - 03:34 PM, said:

HAG20 doesn't do twice the damage of a gauss, though. That's the 30.

HAG/20 v cAC/10 is the antecedent for that comparison.

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 October 2023 - 05:15 PM, said:

You do more damage, but again, it's still more saturated and you still end up with equivalent sustained DPS so it isn't like you are anymore punishing against a push. You also lose the ability to punish lights like you would normally have with double Gauss. IMO it isn't worth it.


The cauldron wants to weaken midrange HAG vomit because that's what bloats mid range alphas and that's where it is most problematic. That's actually the most ironic part of all of this is people want it to focus on the range its the most egregious at. It will hamper long range HAG vomit too which is fine, it didn't need to compete against Gauss at those ranges as good as it does currently.

Yeah. And even at long range, the raw damage it does is a tremendous threat that scales with target size. Against something small and moving? Meh, the lasers are going to hurt more - but that's not what Gaussvomit(or HAGvomit) is about. Where those builds shine is hitting shots with low deflection to either poke from outside the target's range, or duck back into cover. And HAGvomit really does that far too well, even at long range.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2023 - 04:47 PM, said:

You didn't do any research. You just cherry picked some weapon stats and ignored all other data. Again.
And your wild claims are empirically incorrect. Again!

The LX-PL, for example, is not better than the cLPL in every way, as you can see by the application of a skill called "reading." The cLPL is superior in both tonnage, range - and cooldown. This is all empirical data, which you have gotten wrong. And the latter two advantages are not trivial! Having to stare at your enemy is a huge disadvantage; lasers point both ways, and if you are exposed enough to shoot at the enemy, you can and will be shot at.

The same goes for the smaller X-pulse - and although the weapon ranges are the same, the shorter distance means that the drawbacks of having to stare down your enemy are even greater. That's why X-pulse hasn't eclipsed its substitute weapons like the HAG has, and in fact needed to be buffed. Its original form was terribly underpowered; it looked good on paper (trade heat efficiency and stare time for greater dps,) but pilots testing the weapons live found that mostly they just got pwned.

Now, as Frost_Byte said, there will be more balance passes - so take heart, you could be right! But until you start paying attention to facts that inconvenience your desired conclusion, it can only be by accident.

Your wrong about cooldown X large pulse cooldown is .0.25 while clan large pulse cooldown is 3.5

five seconds of fire of the large x pulse already out damages a clan large pulse...


From the 'research' link
the clan large pulse is even worse in heat per second
even heat per damage is better the only thing clan pulse has going for it in the case of the large is weight and range but that range is probably totally nullified by range quirks on an inner sphere mech. which only needs less than 10% increase which you can probably get on a stalker or something.

Edited by KursedVixen, 31 October 2023 - 09:07 PM.

[Curccu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 October 2023 - 01:13 PM, said:

Maybe, but you aren't running that on anything but assaults, everything else like the Night Gyr and below are likely running Gauss+cERLLs or just cERLLs. So not really sure I care that assaults shift to HAGs tbh. Even then, having the 30 PPFLD plus the tickle lasers can still be useful even if the duration is a bit longer compared to the HAGs because you can also deal with lights + mediums that close the gap on you better.

ntg-h Pretty good build.
Nice alpha, nice DPS, nice sustained DPS, nice range

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2023 - 01:18 PM, said:

I really do think Hags were fine when they came in maybe with just a little more spread they're not suppose to be sniper weapons but big front loaded damage up to about maybe 500 ish range and not sniper weapons if you want sniper go with the standard gauss or ERPPC

How about you try playing some HAGs, pretty easy to drop alphas to enemy mechs center mass 1000m away.

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

That's probably due to the C-AC10 fireing 2 5 damage shells at a slower velocity than the hag 20 fires 4.


this could be fixed by letting the C-ac10 fire one slug or increasing it's velocity or lowering it's cooldown.

A possible way i can see to make Guass and hag diffrent is make the normal gauss have more veolcity The only other thing i could see is making the guass fire a second or two faster than a hag 20 I don't think touching it's damage will help....

And after you give this massive buff to clan AC10 how does balance towards IS AC10s work? IS AC10s have one real advantage vs clan counterparts... 1 slug.

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2023 - 04:18 PM, said:

well my research says Xpulse small and Xmedium are doing too much DPS.... so where does that put your argument?

You were telling me befoer clan pulse are better but according to the stats there Xpulse are better in every way even the large X pulse despite it's shorter range compared to C large pulse.

3 is a heluva lot more damage per second that 1.83 if you take the medium pulse as an example.

By those stats alone it seems to me clan mechs need more armor to compesate for their lower DPS.

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2023 - 08:11 PM, said:

Your wrong about cooldown X large pulse cooldown is .0.25 while clan large pulse cooldown is 3.5

five seconds of fire of the large x pulse already out damages a clan large pulse...


From the 'research' link
the clan large pulse is even worse in heat per second
even heat per damage is better the only thing clan pulse has going for it in the case of the large is weight and range but that range is probably totally nullified by range quirks on an inner sphere mech. which only needs less than 10% increase which you can probably get on a stalker or something.

Void Angel probably means by that "you don't do research"... You see values and jump to conclusions without actually understanding those values and their meaning at all.

That is why you constantly ramble about RAC5s and Xpulses that are both bad weapons and claim that they are better even OP compared to HAGs or cLPLs which is insane.

PS. Wise man once said "Do not stand in the open area taking damage while your own weapons are on cooldown, that would be extremely stupid."

[KursedVixen]

Curccu, on 01 November 2023 - 01:17 AM, said:

ntg-h Pretty good build.
Nice alpha, nice DPS, nice sustained DPS, nice range


How about you try playing some HAGs, pretty easy to drop alphas to enemy mechs center mass 1000m away.



And after you give this massive buff to clan AC10 how does balance towards IS AC10s work? IS AC10s have one real advantage vs clan counterparts... 1 slug.




Void Angel probably means by that "you don't do research"... You see values and jump to conclusions without actually understanding those values and their meaning at all.

That is why you constantly ramble about RAC5s and Xpulses that are both bad weapons and claim that they are better even OP compared to HAGs or cLPLs which is insane.

PS. Wise man once said "Do not stand in the open area taking damage while your own weapons are on cooldown, that would be extremely stupid."

A wise man also once said "Don't assume because if you split up the word Assume you get *** u me."

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2023 - 02:08 PM, said:

'Cause boating HAGS isn't really the root of the problem. The weapon is flat-out replacing the Gauss Rifle, and there's really not another weapon that can poke as well as it does. Heck, the HAG/20 flat out-dps's the cAC/10.

It isn't gonna replace the Gauss Rifle, being basically heatless and doing 15 PPFLD. It's also kind of pointless to use dps in point to argue for GR, it's dumb.

The problem with HAGs is more of the problem of Cauldron trying to make them perform competitively at a such a range, when they simply shouldn't. They try to justify ever increasing ludicrous drawbacks like extreme heat, for it's extreme damage and extreme range. While sure it'll work, as a matter of fine-tuning the value of mechanics -- should it tho? Should a 20-30-40 damage, that two can be fired at once, do such damage effectively at a distance? It ain't MRMs either, you can core them at a distance.

And this insistence to make them do things at such distance, when pre-patch they were working perfectly fine and balanced, is exactly the problem, the thinking of it basically worthless unless it can snipe with it.

Void Angel, on 31 October 2023 - 03:33 PM, said:

HAG/20 comparison, not the /30.

It's 0.42 for the HAG/20

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 October 2023 - 05:15 PM, said:

The cauldron wants to weaken midrange HAG vomit because that's what bloats mid range alphas and that's where it is most problematic. That's actually the most ironic part of all of this is people want it to focus on the range its the most egregious at. It will hamper long range HAG vomit too which is fine, it didn't need to compete against Gauss at those ranges as good as it does currently.

So their response in breaking mid-range, is to break long-range? Now that I think about it, maybe introducing HAGs wasn't such a good idea, they dug us into this grave, they balanced themselves into a corner by introducing an extremely powerful weapon, so now their approach is to make it as ludicrous as possible.

Maybe it would have turned out differently if they just exactly made this into basically a gauss Auto-Shotgun as intended.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 November 2023 - 01:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 01:34 AM, said:

So their response in breaking mid-range, is to break long-range? Now that I think about it, maybe introducing HAGs wasn't such a good idea, they dug us into this grave, they balanced themselves into a corner by introducing an extremely powerful weapon, so now their approach is to make it as ludicrous as possible.

Maybe it would have turned out differently if they just exactly made this into basically a gauss Auto-Shotgun as intended.

I honestly don't think this breaks long range, yes it is stronger against slower targets (which ironically are the strongest weight class anyway) but I don't feel like it is game breaking, I can still get good games with assaults just fine nor do I find HAGs honestly as threatening as people make it out to be (at long range mind you).

That said, with the heat they plan to add, I don't think you will see the ERLL+HAG vomit builds anymore or if you do they will be more susceptible to pressure. Not saying you still won't see the stupid MAD-IIC-D's hanging out in some corner somewhere, but they will find themselves less useful because they won't be firing as much. I think you are more likely to see it shift to just running HAGs without lasers or maybe a few mediums or small lasers for bracket building.



As for auto shotty, honestly that's what RACs could've been because that's somewhat how the Heavy's minigun in TF2 works, per "ammo" consumed it fires 3 pellets in game.

Curccu, on 01 November 2023 - 01:17 AM, said:

ntg-h Pretty good build.
Nice alpha, nice DPS, nice sustained DPS, nice range

I mean, 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL would still be my preferred because of less spread damage. I lose out on 19 damage sure, but I'm also doing 30 PPFLD, that's still potent at range. I can also poptart with 2 Gauss.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 November 2023 - 08:33 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 08:28 AM, said:

I honestly don't think this breaks long range, yes it is stronger against slower targets (which ironically are the strongest weight class anyway) but I don't feel like it is game breaking, I can still get good games with assaults just fine nor do I find HAGs honestly as threatening as people make it out to be (at long range mind you).

Well, another perspective there is that (clan) assaults, just as well could boat HAGs anyways.

But why I decry range in this case is passiveness and safety. They are supposed to be kind of weak, things considering, and having strong long-range, even if it's not coring but just whittling people down and farming, further halts the flow of combat. Being in the middle of it all as the norm makes it easier to shift to medium or close-range, but when your constant combat would be at long range then it'll be surely a hit against the brawl.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 08:28 AM, said:

That said, with the heat they plan to add, I don't think you will see the ERLL+HAG vomit builds anymore or if you do they will be more susceptible to pressure. Not saying you still won't see the stupid MAD-IIC-D's hanging out in some corner somewhere, but they will find themselves less useful because they won't be firing as much. I think you are more likely to see it shift to just running HAGs without lasers or maybe a few mediums or small lasers for bracket building.

The heavy heat, and lack of synergy with basically any other weapons mean the HAGs are more likely boated as they are focused on their own combinations.

I still don't like the step of making things ludicrously high, min-maxing ****. Comps really have this tendency to do that, and now that they basically have the control, they are pulling **** like this.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 08:28 AM, said:

As for auto shotty, honestly that's what RACs could've been because that's somewhat how the Heavy's minigun in TF2 works, per "ammo" consumed it fires 3 pellets in game.

Not really good considering that it's different game, with different application.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 08:28 AM, said:

I honestly don't think this breaks long range, yes it is stronger against slower targets (which ironically are the strongest weight class anyway) but I don't feel like it is game breaking, I can still get good games with assaults just fine nor do I find HAGs honestly as threatening as people make it out to be (at long range mind you).

That said, with the heat they plan to add, I don't think you will see the ERLL+HAG vomit builds anymore or if you do they will be more susceptible to pressure. Not saying you still won't see the stupid MAD-IIC-D's hanging out in some corner somewhere, but they will find themselves less useful because they won't be firing as much. I think you are more likely to see it shift to just running HAGs without lasers or maybe a few mediums or small lasers for bracket building.



As for auto shotty, honestly that's what RACs could've been because that's somewhat how the Heavy's minigun in TF2 works, per "ammo" consumed it fires 3 pellets in game.


I mean, 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL would still be my preferred because of less spread damage. I lose out on 19 damage sure, but I'm also doing 30 PPFLD, that's still potent at range. I can also poptart with 2 Gauss.

Honestly i've been killed more by x-pulse and binary than HAGs, still maybe pilots who whine about them just don't know how to twist or something.... I really prefer thier original introduction version good at about 500 meters and just enough to poke sniper from range with a little tap

Edited by KursedVixen, 01 November 2023 - 02:55 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 02:42 PM, said:

Well, another perspective there is that (clan) assaults, just as well could boat HAGs anyways.

But why I decry range in this case is passiveness and safety. They are supposed to be kind of weak, things considering, and having strong long-range, even if it's not coring but just whittling people down and farming, further halts the flow of combat. Being in the middle of it all as the norm makes it easier to shift to medium or close-range, but when your constant combat would be at long range then it'll be surely a hit against the brawl.

So there are a couple of things here:
* Any damage deters most players from pushing, doesn't matter if it is tickle level damage. So let's stop acting like HAGs have made any of that worse. Maybe things are different when you play but I really have felt the impact of HAGs on the game, and they are far from the snub nose buff of ye olden days.
* Hagvomit/Gaussvomit/Laservomit all contribute to this, the effective range doesn't really matter so long as it is effective past typical brawl range. Long range lacks the alpha and DPS that mid range does so you can think it makes it easier to shift to brawl but it really doesn't because mid range is full of crap that hits hard, HAGs included (either iteration).
* Weapons need to be worth the risk, so having that range really seemed kinda pointless if it can't leverage it (sandblasting is not worth the risk), however adding yet another mid-range weapon in a game that is stacked with mid-range options seems like the worst choice IMO.

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 02:42 PM, said:

The heavy heat, and lack of synergy with basically any other weapons mean the HAGs are more likely boated as they are focused on their own combinations.

I mean, I think that's kinda what you have to do given allowing them to combine with other weapons well potentially allows for broken builds and no one finds it acceptable to reduce the damage per shot (for whatever reason). It's possible in the end you'll just see HAGs + micros/smalls for some bracket builds.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 November 2023 - 04:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2023 - 08:11 PM, said:

Your wrong about cooldown X large pulse cooldown is .0.25 while clan large pulse cooldown is 3.5

five seconds of fire of the large x pulse already out damages a clan large pulse...

Oh, Vix. Where to begin? First, it does not take five seconds of fire for the LXP to outdamage the cLPL. It takes 2.71 seconds to do that - you seem to have just divided the per-shot damage stat of the cLPL by the LXP, and rounded to the nearest integer. So this is a math problem with graphics, and you have the wrong answer.

Then, there's the, uh, embarrasing fact that you are actually repeating what I told you back to me, thinking that it vindicates you. Having a .5 second firing rate is a Bad Thing. It makes you stare at people instead of ducking behind cover like every build using a cLPL does. And even if bot 'mechs were standing in an empty box map shooting at each other, it still wouldn't be that straightforward, because the cLPL 'mech can twist and the LXP can't. This is glaringly obvious to anyone who knows that torso twisting exists - INCLUDING YOU, because you invoke that very practice in your convenient story about how you totally get killed more by the LXP than the HAG, so people getting shot by a half-second (max) burst must just not know how to twist or something, man.

[Void Angel]

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 01:34 AM, said:

It's 0.42 for the HAG/20

Comparison, man. What's the difference between the burst durations of the HAG/20 and cAC/10?

As for heavy heat, I don't think it's that heavy right now, given the play style and Clan cooling capacity. I mean, have you seen some of the Stone Rhino HAG builds? That's the sort of thing that makes a guy hesitate to try trading, you know? But if they slap down a reasonable increase in heat, it will push the HAG away from being able to use all those lasers at the same time; I think that'll be what they do, since they want low spread.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 04:58 PM, said:

Any damage deters most players from pushing, doesn't matter if it is tickle level damage. So let's stop acting like HAGs have made any of that worse. Maybe things are different when you play but I really have felt the impact of HAGs on the game, and they are far from the snub nose buff of ye olden days.

HAG does 20/30/40 damage, and is now accurate at very long ranges, to the point that Cauldron admitted that they were overperforming, so I have to disagree on this one.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 04:58 PM, said:

Hagvomit/Gaussvomit/Laservomit all contribute to this, the effective range doesn't really matter so long as it is effective past typical brawl range. Long range lacks the alpha and DPS that mid range does so you can think it makes it easier to shift to brawl but it really doesn't because mid range is full of crap that hits hard, HAGs included (either iteration).

It's certainly shorter to close the gap to a mid-range than it is to do on long-range.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 04:58 PM, said:

* Weapons need to be worth the risk, so having that range really seemed kinda pointless if it can't leverage it (sandblasting is not worth the risk), however adding yet another mid-range weapon in a game that is stacked with mid-range options seems like the worst choice IMO.

What risk? Dude it's long-range, and you got a 20/30/40 damage while you can fire two, that is reasonably accurate with incredibly fast projectile, it's incredibly safe at a distance. Mid-range and below on the other hand, have the most risk that makes it's damage much more fair and acceptable.

Well, it could have gotten HGR treatment. *shrug*

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 04:58 PM, said:

I mean, I think that's kinda what you have to do given allowing them to combine with other weapons well potentially allows for broken builds and no one finds it acceptable to reduce the damage per shot (for whatever reason). It's possible in the end you'll just see HAGs + micros/smalls for some bracket builds.

Well, that's kinda fair, which what the Heat nerf does.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 07:28 PM, said:

HAG does 20/30/40 damage, and is now accurate at very long ranges, to the point that Cauldron admitted that they were overperforming, so I have to disagree on this one.

Yeah, they were overperforming but at what ranges is what's important. I don't think the concern was really at long range, it was that they did appreciable damage at long range AND could be stacked with a bunch of mid range lasers for goofy alphas.

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 07:28 PM, said:

It's certainly shorter to close the gap to a mid-range than it is to do on long-range.

Sure, but you are having to deal with more damage on the close. Traditionally mid-range has had the heaviest alphas because there are a lot of weapons that play there and LBX20s never really got the damage boost they deserve.

The6thMessenger, on 01 November 2023 - 07:28 PM, said:

What risk? Dude it's long-range, and you got a 20/30/40 damage while you can fire two, that is reasonably accurate with incredibly fast projectile, it's incredibly safe at a distance. Mid-range and below on the other hand, have the most risk that makes it's damage much more fair and acceptable.

Well, it could have gotten HGR treatment. *shrug*

My point was prior to the spread reduction, the long range wasn't worth even exposing to shoot for (the risk wasn't worth the reward). You were just going to spread damage and get out played. Now you still spread damage but you can actually do enough damage to compete, ie it's worth the risk of actually trying to play that game.

The advantage of HAG vs Gauss is that HAGs are better against pushes because your damage becomes a bit more concentrated as they close and that extra damage can matter, you just are less effective at range and against faster mechs. The same will be true even after the heat nerf you just won't really have the heat for extra lasers to supplant your alphas.

Also, the HGR treatment is goofy just like the Snub Nose damage falloff was. I'd honestly prefer they just have like 400-600m range and normal falloff. Then again, I also wish HGR had more heat and didn't have the stupid shake because the HGR plays a similar role to the HAGs IMO.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 November 2023 - 09:09 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 09:08 PM, said:

Yeah, they were overperforming but at what ranges is what's important. I don't think the concern was really at long range, it was that they did appreciable damage at long range AND could be stacked with a bunch of mid range lasers for goofy alphas.

Seems inevitable that they do so, considering that they do have to pass mid-range to get to long range.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 09:08 PM, said:

Sure, but you are having to deal with more damage on the close. Traditionally mid-range has had the heaviest alphas because there are a lot of weapons that play there and LBX20s never really got the damage boost they deserve.

Yeah. But still tho, point stands on the HAG. It's just unreasonable to have that much output while sitting pretty from relative safety.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 09:08 PM, said:

My point was prior to the spread reduction, the long range wasn't worth even exposing to shoot for (the risk wasn't worth the reward). You were just going to spread damage and get out played. Now you still spread damage but you can actually do enough damage to compete, ie it's worth the risk of actually trying to play that game.

That's because long-range is for farming, you were supposed to go closer. Even if it was spread from a distance, guess what it's still reliable 5-PPFLD. Even MRMs could only wish they have said accuracy at their very own optimal range.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 09:08 PM, said:

The advantage of HAG vs Gauss is that HAGs are better against pushes because your damage becomes a bit more concentrated as they close and that extra damage can matter, you just are less effective at range and against faster mechs. The same will be true even after the heat nerf you just won't really have the heat for extra lasers to supplant your alphas.

Yeah, I have no delusion that Gauss is obsolete with HAGs -- rather I see AC2s pretty much weakened and redundant.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 November 2023 - 09:08 PM, said:

Also, the HGR treatment is goofy just like the Snub Nose damage falloff was. I'd honestly prefer they just have like 400-600m range and normal falloff. Then again, I also wish HGR had more heat and didn't have the stupid shake because the HGR plays a similar role to the HAGs IMO.

You mean like HGR40 where firing two will accrue GH? Yeah, sure, no problem. But what BS is the HGR to HAGs? HAGs optimal pushes WAAAAY beyond the range, not because they are hard-hitting means they fill the same role, the HGR doing 25 PPFLD means it'll be applied better than HAGs would. It's really a lot more closer to MRMs.

But still looking at that arrangement, you could have acceptable performance at the distance, even if it's not 100% efficiency, you reduce alpha at midrange considering if you did reduce the optimal range below mid-range, which I wager below 360m.

Also HGRs is kind of still acceptable at that scenario, as the HGRs still do more damage than an AC20 beyond it's effective range.

[Void Angel]

AC/2s are also deprecated because of HAGs - but anecdotally, nearly all Gaussvomit builds in my matches are switching to HAGs. I haven't been keeping track, but I don't remember the last time I saw a Clan Gauss Rifle since a few days after the patch.