207 replies to this topic

[foamyesque]

Void Angel, on 04 November 2023 - 11:29 AM, said:

Yeah, I see what you mean, and I'm not on the "duurr, HAGs are fine" bandwagon to begin with. That HAG/40 duration is a significant source of spread and exposure, though; a full second of duration is a killer drawback - but you get so much damage...

A full second of duration hurts, but like... that's the cERML burntime. Except you can do it from double the range, with two and a half times the DPH. Given how common (and strong) Clan lasvom was prior to the HAG introduction, that's a downside people are absolutely willing to work around.

A HAG40 is basically like having seven cERMLs ganged together in one hardpoint. It allows you to absolutely demolish the usual ghost heat limits on vomit designs.

[Void Angel]

The Heat Scale penalty on the HAG/40 is a joke. You can fire two HAG/40s, a cERLL, and 6 cERMLs (barely) without overheating. Pull out the cERMLs, and the heat is entirely manageable. You wouldn't think so: 8 penalty heat on an 11-heat weapon looks good on paper, but it's just not enough compared to Clan cooling capacity and the long cooldown of the weapon system.

Exposure time per damage is an important balance constraint, but I don't think it's the core issue here. I think the problem with HAGs is that they deal Damage per Heat comparable to an cUAC/20, but at Gauss Rifle ranges. Increasing their heat - and upping the HAG/40's Heat Scale penalty to the point people start to care - is probably what needs to happen for balancing.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 November 2023 - 01:37 PM.

[foamyesque]

Void Angel, on 04 November 2023 - 01:34 PM, said:

The Heat Scale penalty on the HAG/40 is a joke. You can fire two HAG/40s, a cERLL, and 6 cERMLs (barely) without overheating. Pull out the cERMLs, and the heat is entirely manageable. You wouldn't think so: 8 penalty heat on an 11-heat weapon looks good on paper, but it's just not enough compared to Clan cooling capacity and the long cooldown of the weapon system.

Exposure time per damage is an important balance constraint, but I don't think it's the core issue here. I think the problem with HAGs is that they deal Damage per Heat comparable to an cUAC/20, but at Gauss Rifle ranges. Increasing their heat - and upping the HAG/40's Heat Scale penalty to the point people start to care - is probably what needs to happen for balancing.

If they were genuinely spreading damage all over I think they'd be okay, or at least much closer. Current burst time, original or even higher forced spread, then balance from there.

But I dunno, I'm not one of the balance whizzes, they'll probably make hit hitscan and hotter or something.

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 04 November 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

Sturdier legs than I run on mine (admittedly people do like to shoot 'em :v). You could maybe scare up another half ton for either more ammo or flipping the 1/2t batch into a TComp for the velocity edge.

The 3.5 tons works out to about 8 tons with ammo quirk and nodes. I've run out with 3 tons but not with 3.5 so its enough and I do tend to shoot a lot. As to velocity they are more than fast enough with the velocity nodes and velocity quirk. I need sturdy legs because I do a ton of poptarting and I don't always have enough jj juice left for a soft landing. Fall damage nodes help greatly there but I think all shadowcats could use a -20% fall damage quirk in the ct. Or at least on the mc hero as an incentive to buy it.

[Void Angel]

The role they want for it is long-range, semipinpoint damage with increasing burst times per class. To fix the weapon and keep those design factors, they'll pretty much have to stick to increasing burst times and/or nerfing heat efficiency.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2023 - 06:14 PM, said:

It really doesn't but you can keep thinking that.

The difference is that MRMs can brawl, HAGs can't -- or at least shouldn't. So yeah no, playstyle is pretty different.

Vonbach, on 04 November 2023 - 04:02 AM, said:

Comparing HAGs and MRMs is like comparing apples and giraffes.
HAGs are superior in every single way.

Well, that's the point, kind of. MRMs though have the damage, is held back by shorter range and immense spread, while HAGs can deliver such damage much farther and more accurately.

And I don't think HAGs should be doing that well at such distance.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 November 2023 - 02:47 PM.

[foamyesque]

The6thMessenger, on 05 November 2023 - 02:46 PM, said:

The difference is that MRMs can brawl, HAGs can't

On what do you base this? As it stands HAGs are significantly better brawling weapons than MRMs are.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 05:22 PM, said:

On what do you base this? As it stands HAGs are significantly better brawling weapons than MRMs are.

....wat

[Void Angel]

Not really. HAGs do have the same "gun for all ranges" character that made them such a close substitute for the AC/20 Back In the Day, but like then, the dedicated brawling weapons are still better for that role.

The HAG/40 has a burst duration of nearly a full second. That's NOT an insignificant drawback.

[The6thMessenger]

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 05:22 PM, said:

On what do you base this? As it stands HAGs are significantly better brawling weapons than MRMs are.

The part where you charge it up AAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNDDDDD.

Stare for 0.42/0.7/0.98s, which isn't conducive to the typical armor-rolling/shielding. Both of which aren't helpful when you're in the open with a dance-partner.

Compare to say, the Gauss that at least dumps it's entire damage at a single blast then go back to shielding; or at least the MRMs have shorter duration and have no Gauss Charge.

I mean, I suppose you can try to make it work with all of the disadvantages, but I wouldn't bring HAGs that close versus say an array of SRMs and LB20X/AC20s and MRMs, you got 810m optimal range (and high heat) for a reason and it isn't because you use HAGs to brawl.

Void Angel, on 05 November 2023 - 05:41 PM, said:

The HAG/40 has a burst duration of nearly a full second. That's NOT an insignificant drawback.

It's a significant one. Even the MRM40, at least has 0.5s (0.4992s actually) of burst, the only HAG under that is the HAG20.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 November 2023 - 05:54 PM.

[Void Angel]

I do kinda see what he's getting at with that MRM comparison, because the HAG/20 and /40 have even better heat than most MRMs.

But it's kind of the whole "Clan lazars aww so hot, boo-hoo" argument. Space and tonnage are not-inconsiderable considerations, especially when you're dealing with sustainable close-range damage.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 November 2023 - 06:16 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 05 November 2023 - 06:07 PM, said:

I do kinda see what he's getting at with that MRM comparison, because the HAG/20 and /40 have even better heat than most MRMs.

But it's kind of the whole "Clan lazars aww so hot, boo-hoo" argument. Space and tonnage are not-inconsiderable considerations, especially when you're dealing with sustainable close-range damage.

I look at HAGs like MRMs because of the damage.

But the problem is that, MRMs, for it to maximize it's damage is comitting to a close-range brawl where it's damage is focused and the spread is minimized. HAGs on the other hand, for such damage, doesn't need commitment to undergo the risk for the "same" damage (note that HAGs have better damage efficiency, even pre-patch, to the virtue of basically longer range and 5ppfld slugs), to which I find broken.

People can sit pretty at a distance and farm -- that's fine, as detterent but more of annoying like LRMs but direct-fire; but now they are much more effective at killing. Yes I was proponent to zero-spread HAG, but I also wanted reduced velocity and shorter optimal range to come with it.

[foamyesque]

The6thMessenger, on 05 November 2023 - 05:49 PM, said:

The part where you charge it up AAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNDDDDD.

Stare for 0.42/0.7/0.98s, which isn't conducive to the typical armor-rolling/shielding. Both of which aren't helpful when you're in the open with a dance-partner.

Compare to say, the Gauss that at least dumps it's entire damage at a single blast then go back to shielding; or at least the MRMs have shorter duration and have no Gauss Charge.

I mean, I suppose you can try to make it work with all of the disadvantages, but I wouldn't bring HAGs that close versus say an array of SRMs and LB20X/AC20s and MRMs, you got 810m optimal range (and high heat) for a reason and it isn't because you use HAGs to brawl.



It's a significant one. Even the MRM40, at least has 0.5s (0.4992s actually) of burst, the only HAG under that is the HAG20.

I'll pay an additional half second of exposure time -- it's only barely worse than medium lasers, and HAG30s are more common than 40s anyway -- for the advantages in being able to jam that damage where I want it. Even with the longer cooldowns (excepting HAG20s), longer burst, extra heat, and extra weight, HAGs are better in a brawl than MRMs because MRMs have five times the spread and a quarter the velocity of HAGs, and HAGs are supported by Clan cooling (which negates the heat problem) and Clan internals (which negates the weight). So you're left with the longer burst and cooldowns -- which, yes, are real and noticeable penalties -- standing against the much better accuracy HAGs allow. And I think that accuracy carries them.

The thing about HAGs is that they're good at basically any range, particularly if you can manage their windup and cooldown. They can compete with gauss. ERLLs, and ERPPCs in the range game, they're pretty much the king of midrange vomit in conjunction with lasers, and they have enough DPS and DPH to operate up close if they have to. About the only matchups they definitively lose on weapon characteristics are true CQC brawlers, but a CQC brawler needs to get to CQC first, and HAGs make that burdensome.

[Void Angel]

Eh... Look at close substitutes. At midrange the cUAC/10 should outperform the HAG/20. Same burst, same damage/ton, higher dps with a much shorter cooldown. The cUAC/5 fares less well in a poking contest, but still does similar dps/hardpoint and can stack more before HSL kicks in (the cUAC/5 is better at dps, worse at poking.) The MRM/30 has a much greater dps compared to the HAG/20 at the same ten-ton weight and less space, making it at least competitive. The MRM/40 has a similar relationship with the HAG/30, as well - roughly 55% higher DPS isn't anything to sneeze at. And don't forget that IS weapons have an unfortunate tendency to be inferior to Clantech because of BT canon, so IS builds will nearly always have weapon-altering quirks to make up the paper differences between the tech.

The trouble I have is that the HAG seems too close to its substitutes, even the cUAC/10. It doesn't stack up well against brawling weapons because of its inferior dps, but its raw damage allows it to seriously damage most 'mechs if it gets most of its rounds on-component. It's the array of slightly-too-powerful characteristics that really make it a problem child for balance.

The way the HAG looks to me, it seems meant to provide a burst-fire alternative to Gauss Rifles, trading that pinpoint punch for overall damage dealt. In economics jargon, it's intended as a close substitute for Gauss Rifles, but it did end up being an upgrade - which is why everyone acknowledges it's too strong and it's going to be nerfed.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 November 2023 - 10:32 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 09:40 PM, said:

I'll pay an additional half second of exposure time -- it's only barely worse than medium lasers, and HAG30s are more common than 40s anyway -- for the advantages in being able to jam that damage where I want it. Even with the longer cooldowns (excepting HAG20s), longer burst, extra heat, and extra weight, HAGs are better in a brawl than MRMs because MRMs have five times the spread and a quarter the velocity of HAGs, and HAGs are supported by Clan cooling (which negates the heat problem) and Clan internals (which negates the weight). So you're left with the longer burst and cooldowns -- which, yes, are real and noticeable penalties -- standing against the much better accuracy HAGs allow. And I think that accuracy carries them.

Spread and travel-time that becomes less of a factor close range -- which brawls typically become. Not saying MRMs becomes pin-point as their spread is still pretty wide while brawling. But the range of brawls -- as in close range nullifies a LOT of the advantages you highlit, and what you are left is the downsides.

The charge time, the high heat, the exposure time. And guess what, while MRMs can minimize the spread by getting closer, HAGs main source of spread that is the stream-fire remains constant.

Sure you can manage the heat, the exposure time, but in a brawl with better equipped mechs for it -- they don't have to!

And why TF are you defending C-ERMLs in brawling? Yes, because Clans do not have access to the more brawl-worthy IS-ML.

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 09:40 PM, said:

The thing about HAGs is that they're good at basically any range, particularly if you can manage their windup and cooldown. They can compete with gauss. ERLLs, and ERPPCs in the range game, they're pretty much the king of midrange vomit in conjunction with lasers, and they have enough DPS and DPH to operate up close if they have to.

But basic Gauss, ERLLs, and ERPPCs ain't brawl weapons now are they? They are good, but they are still not brawl weapons, are they?

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 09:40 PM, said:

About the only matchups they definitively lose on weapon characteristics are true CQC brawlers, but a CQC brawler needs to get to CQC first, and HAGs make that burdensome.

That's just an admission that it can't brawl -- or at least shouldn't. Because those that commit dancing with you, typically have their best foot forward in the first place.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 November 2023 - 10:57 PM.

[foamyesque]

The6thMessenger, on 05 November 2023 - 10:49 PM, said:

That's just an admission that it can't brawl -- or at least shouldn't. Because those that commit dancing with you, typically have their best foot forward in the first place.

Yeah but a CQC brawler isn't an MRM build. It's snubs, SRMs, AC20s and LBX10s/20s, machine guns, maybe pulse lasers of some variety, all of which will demolish an MRM machine up close, all else equal. MRMs are a short-mid vomit weapon, not a brawler weapon (they can brawl, but so can HAGs, and HAGs do it better.)

Edited by foamyesque, 05 November 2023 - 11:09 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 05 November 2023 - 10:20 PM, said:

The way the HAG looks to me, it seems meant to provide a burst-fire alternative to Gauss Rifles, trading that pinpoint punch for overall damage dealt. In economics jargon, it's intended as a close substitute for Gauss Rifles, but it did end up being an upgrade - which is why everyone acknowledges it's too strong and it's going to be nerfed.

Quite right. The problem is that we cant -- or at least based on the source material, that it needs to have those ludicrous amount of damage.

Funnily enough it's supposed to be a spread-weapon as per sarna, TT basically clan Silver-Bullet Gauss. Cauldron would alter the fundamental spread mechanics because it's inconvenient, but would retain heavy damage.

foamyesque, on 05 November 2023 - 11:00 PM, said:

Yeah but a CQC brawler isn't an MRM build. It's snubs, SRMs, AC20s and LBX20s, machine guns, maybe pulse lasers of some variety, all of which will demolish an MRM machine up close, all else equal.

Not necessarily, it's certainly easier to brawl in an MRM than it is in HAGs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 November 2023 - 11:01 PM.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 05 November 2023 - 11:00 PM, said:

Not necessarily, it's certainly easier to brawl in an MRM than it is in HAGs.

I'd say HAGs are not that much worse in brawl that MRMs, sure charge is a bit annoying but not an issue really.. Good part of HAGs is that they are very accurate at close ranges and you can put whole salvo into 1 component.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 05 November 2023 - 11:22 PM, said:

I'd say HAGs are not that much worse in brawl that MRMs, sure charge is a bit annoying but not an issue really.. Good part of HAGs is that they are very accurate at close ranges and you can put whole salvo into 1 component.

But charge itself isn't just the drawback -- HGRs can be used in brawls as well, it's the god-awful stream.

HAGs are accurate outwards 810m, so it's not really that much of a difference. But you know what, MRMs are kinda accurate at close ranges, so it has more to gain in brawls than HAGs.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 06 November 2023 - 02:41 AM, said:

But charge itself isn't just the drawback -- HGRs can be used in brawls as well, it's the god-awful stream.

HAGs are accurate outwards 810m, so it's not really that much of a difference. But you know what, MRMs are kinda accurate at close ranges, so it has more to gain in brawls than HAGs.

MRMs have stream, SPLs, MPLs have burn duration, not that much longer for HAG30 at least, that one I got most XP.
HAG velocity is high enough that aiming is easy with minimal lead, MRMs have only quarter of that velocity.
I wouldn't call MRMs kinda accurate in any context, unless you mean that some of the missiles are going to hit intended location. Usually splashing whole centermass of the target.