145 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 November 2023 - 05:25 AM, said:

You pretty much cited the relevant source yourself. Citing more of the TT rules (and their respective rulebooks) isn't necessary in my opinion.

Let me help you out.

https://www.sarna.ne..._Gauss_Rifle_40
Game Rules

Unlike some other weapons using cluster munitions, there is no modifier on the initial attack roll. However, when a hit is scored, a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle receives a +2 modifier on the Cluster Hits table at short range, and a –2 modifier at long range. Modified rolls above 12 or below 2 are treated as a 12 or 2 respectively. Damage location is then determined in 5-point groups plus any remainder below 5 being the final roll.

Yeah, looks like a typical sniper weapon /sarcasm

It uses the same hit table as MRMs...just for your interest.

And this is exactly why it shows that the cauldron is a biased bunch of snipers.


What people forget, though, that this also has consequences on mech types. Speed gets less and less useful because the mechs which are fast, are usually lower weight, pack less punch etc and because the crazy velocity values make them easier to hit than every before (lol 25% velocity quirks e.g. for PPCs, HAG velocity itself and so on)

Don't get me started on risk vs. reward decisions.

The Cauldron simply has no idea of the chain of consequences these changes have. Do you want more proof? More ammo for ballistic weapons...hey, now they can carry even more weapons because each ton provides more shots. So the TTK gets lower and lower. And e.g. autocannons are carried usually mostly by fatties. Again, the speedy mechs get shafted.

And this is the whole Cauldron formula: Big mechs + sniping = max reward followed by big mechs + alpha laser vomit = max reward.

Let's favour fatties some more?

[MechB Kotare]

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

More ammo for ballistic weapons...hey, now they can carry even more weapons because each ton provides more shots. So the TTK gets lower and lower. And e.g. autocannons are carried usually mostly by fatties. Again, the speedy mechs get shafted.

This is result of a ''IS should be equal to Clan balance wise formula'' though. Clans have more range and less weght, IS (and some underperforming clan mechs) gets massive armor quirks. Good luck killing anything with lore based ammo values per ton. Which is also a result of skill tree. If you decrease ttk by adding more armor and structure, you can't keep basic ammo values, unless you want players to run out of ammo really quick.

Still, i think this ''not following lore'' argument isn't really valid, as long as you have customizable mechlab and skill tree. But thanks for pointing it out. Like i said, i had no idea.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 18 November 2023 - 05:55 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

Let me help you out.

Why exactly do you want to "help me out" by quoting me after (supposedly) having gone through my posting where I cited exactly what you are now trying to "help me out with"?! Your re-quote of that rule part isn't adding anything new there. The comment you quoted specifically meant additional rules like further explicit rules on "cluster munition" mechanics or the detailed quotes of the rule of damage grouping.

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

Yeah, looks like a typical sniper weapon /sarcasm

Since you specifically re-quoted me: Your attempt of sarcasm is wasted there. How about actually reading what you're responding to and then trying not to bark up the wrong tree?!

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

It uses the same hit table as MRMs...just for your interest.

Yes and no: MRM - while using the same cluster table - their actual to hit is different and they do not suffer the -2 at long range you just quoted => MRM40 can deal full 40 points of damage at long range, HAG cannot.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 November 2023 - 06:10 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 November 2023 - 05:52 AM, said:

Why exactly do you want to "help me out" by quoting me after (supposedly) having gone through my posting where I cited exactly what you are now trying to "help me out with"?! Your re-quote of that rule part isn't adding anything new there. The comment you quoted specifically additional rules like further explicit rules on "cluster munition" mechanics or the detailed quotes of the rule of damage grouping.



Since you specifically re-quoted me: Your attempt of sarcasm is wasted there. How about actually reading what you're responding to and then trying not to bark up the wrong tree?!



Yes and no: MRM - while using the same cluster table - their actual to hit is different and they do not suffer the -2 at long range you just quoted => MRM40 can deal full 40 points of damage at long range, HAG cannot.

OMG! I am so sorry, that I posted that link for you! Really, how can I apologize for that? That must be terrible offending. I hope I didn't hurt you too much

Edited by Weeny Machine, 18 November 2023 - 06:11 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MechB Kotare, on 18 November 2023 - 05:39 AM, said:

Thank you for the info. I genuinely had no idea. Also i can't seem to find a way to access that cluster hit table chart.

The picture I linked can be found for example on page 116 of the core rulebook BattleTech Total Warfare (7th printing in my case). On the same page you'd find the rules of the "cluster munition" mechanics under the "Cluster Hits" section.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:10 AM, said:

OMG! I am so sorry, that I posted that link for you!

You should really re-read my original comment, because it included said link as well as the text on the rules that you tried "to post for me" there. So yes, be sorry for wasting your and my time as well as webspace just to get you to understand that you provided redundant information and still barked up the wrong tree.

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:10 AM, said:

Really, how can I apologize for that?

I don't expect you to actually being willing to honestly aplogize because by now you're so stuck in your aggressive tunnel vision.

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:10 AM, said:

That must be terrible offending.

On an intellectual level it's indeed somewhat insulting to see a quote of the last paragraph of my rather extensive comment being used to "help me" with contents of that exact same extensive comment. What you did is like this;

Person A: The sun appears yellow in the Earth's sky because of how the Earth's atmosphere refracts the sun's light. Here is [source X] that shows you this. I don't find it necessary to go into deeper physiscs sources

You: Let me help you with those deeper physiscs sources. Here is [the exact same source X] that shows you this and will explain to you why the sun appears yellow in the Earth's sky

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:10 AM, said:

I hope I didn't hurt you too much

It seems to hurt you far more than me

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 November 2023 - 06:32 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 November 2023 - 06:31 AM, said:

It seems to hurt you far more than me

1. you could have realized that just the link was meant for you, the rest was in general.
2. Offended? Me?! That you even feel the urge to write a complex response when it was a simple message containing only sarcasm expressed through the rhetorical device of hyperbole says a lot. Maybe I should be "offended on an intellectual level", though

[martian]

MechB Kotare, on 18 November 2023 - 04:40 AM, said:

I dont know where is this information coming from. Source?
...
I can't find any information about their spread, which suggests they are worse at long range (sniping) than a regular sniping Gauss. Can you please link me some official source which proves, that they are indeed not a ''sniping'' weapon?

Thanks in advance.

Total Warfare, p. 136 - "Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle" section.

The "Cluster Hits Table" is on p. 116.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

1. you could have realized that just the link was meant for you,

You mean the very link that [color=#0693f4]MechB Kotare[/color] had already presented himself and was re-used by myself with HAG 40 and then directly quoting the exact same rule excerpt that you gave?

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

the rest was in general.

You might in return notice that I only gave you "fire" for giving me help with something I already had shown myself. Then I noted that your attempt at sarcasm was wasted on me and finally I also corrected you on a detail of your "general rest".

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

2. Offended? Me?!

Your aggressive tone suggests as much

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

That you even feel the urge to write a complex response when it was a simple message containing only sarcasm expressed through the rhetorical device of hyperbole says a lot.

It largely says that you have gone from providing redundant information after not having paid enough attention to what you responded to to aggressive attempts of deflection and now into straight ad hominem if not straight up insults.

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

Maybe I should be "offended on an intellectual level", though

So in the spirit of that latest development: I doubt that you can be offended on an intellectual level because you lack in that department.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 November 2023 - 08:23 AM.

[foamyesque]

martian, on 18 November 2023 - 03:53 AM, said:

But I can spare you some time and effort and give you the Cauldron's answer before you even ask:

I ain't talking about TT balance. HAGs, and the direction they've been going with them, are bad for MWO's balance, irrespective of how HAGs work in TT.

HAGs ought to be have spread along the lines of LBXes and retain the burst duration. That would give them a niche -- big bursts for less heat and no jam chance compared to UACs -- but with less precision because you have both burst duration and spread to deal with. It doesn't eat into the LBX niche because the light LBXes are DPS weapons and the big ones still have the snapshot advantage, the critseek advantage, and a DPS and DPH advantage.

[martian]

foamyesque, on 18 November 2023 - 07:57 PM, said:

I ain't talking about TT balance. HAGs, and the direction they've been going with them, are bad for MWO's balance, irrespective of how HAGs work in TT.

HAGs ought to be have spread along the lines of LBXes and retain the burst duration. That would give them a niche -- big bursts for less heat and no jam chance compared to UACs -- but with less precision because you have both burst duration and spread to deal with. It doesn't eat into the LBX niche because the light LBXes are DPS weapons and the big ones still have the snapshot advantage, the critseek advantage, and a DPS and DPH advantage.

I think that there is a certain similarity.

Anyway, you can tell Cauldron all these things.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 19 November 2023 - 12:37 AM, said:

I think that there is a certain similarity.

Anyway, you can tell Cauldron all these things.

After even removing that mini spread the HAG in MWO is only a HAG in name - because the cauldron transformed HAGs into the perfect sniper weapons which they actually aren't. So, do you really think they will re-design the whole weapon system? Because this is what you ask them to do.

Also, the Cauldron's track record speaks volume in regards to sniping (and fatties):
- sniping gets supported whenever possible
- TTK went down
- Verlocity went up
- it is now: bigger is better, lights, especially 35t mechs are screwed because of the sick damage and high velocity of the weapons - both makes it easier to destroy them

Point is: better talk to a wall. At least the wall will listen.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 19 November 2023 - 02:09 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

I honestly think what needs to be done isnt so much numbers, its VISUAL.

The default weapon effects...suck. When i originally got into Mechwarrior it was the old Mektek servers back in the good ole mech 4 Gladiator poptart days. Everyone ran gauss ppcs. Everone poptarted in large servers...BUT...

you had a MASSIVE blue "Hello im over here" corkscrew of doom whenever you fired a gauss rifle. The default effects in this game do not have that. Unless you happen to see some little spark in the distance from his muzzle flash. its nearly impossible sometimes to see those gauss slugs coming.

Until I recently installed a Mech 4 visual mod...IT added the old Gauss trails for all gauss rifles except Hags, but those leave a stream. Now I can accurately gauge where shots are coming from and trade back.

Before It even became meta i was already using fairly long ranged configs. My most used King crab has gauss and 4 mediums and has had that loadout since King crabs DROPPED. Its just a simple matter of outsniping the snipers.

90% of snipers are actually QUITE bad. and will just stand there till they get a critical damage warning after you slap them about 6 or 7 times. Ive even had guys let me completely core out their entire marauder and just side stepped most of thier fire by just simply wiggling back and fourth...ITs very seldom you actually see skilled players sitting back sniping. Countersniping most of the time is just FREE damage.

Weeny Machine, on 19 November 2023 - 02:00 AM, said:

After even removing that mini spread the HAG in MWO is only a HAG in name - because the cauldron transformed HAGs into the perfect sniper weapons which they actually aren't. So, do you really think they will re-design the whole weapon system? Because this is what you ask them to do.

Also, the Cauldron's track record speaks volume in regards to sniping (and fatties):
- sniping gets supported whenever possible
- TTK went down
- Verlocity went up
- it is now: bigger is better, lights, especially 35t mechs are screwed because of the sick damage and high velocity of the weapons - both makes it easier to destroy them

Point is: better talk to a wall. At least the wall will listen.

If anything they need MORE spread. and probably much less range. 600ish base range. Low heat higher spread.

[An6ryMan69]

Game experience could be improved quite a bit with just tweaks to generally "annoying" features of the current game, not requiring any major rewrite or significant shift in "theme" of the game.

Like -

Mining Collective - out of bounds moved inwards so no possibility of sniping across the map from the side of the mountains where you're hiding in the dark, spawn camping stopped by having mechs start to take damage for not leaving the spawn area, last mech hiding and ruining a good Skirmish match - mechs out of a certain range of enemies and not engaging start taking damage, flamers - limit of one per mech, block off areas only accessible by a small number of really jumpy snipers, etc. Basically a cleanup if dirty play that, unfortunately, is often rewarded by the game as it is. Do I even need to mention marauding groups of Craels or Scaleshots eating up solo players? Nah, I'll keep in classy and not bring that up...

Edited by An6ryMan69, 20 November 2023 - 11:38 AM.

[martian]

An6ryMan69, on 20 November 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

Game experience could be improved quite a bit with just tweaks to generally "annoying" features of the current game, not requiring any major rewrite.

Like -

Mining Collective - out of bounds moved inwards so no possibility of sniping across the map from the side of the mountains where you're hiding in the dark, spawn camping stopped by having mechs start to take damage for not leaving the spawn area, last mech hiding and ruining a good Skirmish match - mechs out of a certain range of enemies and not engaging start taking damage, flamers - limit of one per mech, block off areas only accessible by a small number of really jumpy snipers, etc. Basically a cleanup if dirty play that, unfortunately, is often rewarded by the game as it is. Do I even need to mention marauding groups of Craels or Scaleshots eating up solo players? Nah, I'll keep in classy and not bring that up...

I am afraid that the current lack of the MWO engineering personnel makes many of those suggestions all but impossible to put into practice.

[Navid A1]

Weeny Machine, on 18 November 2023 - 05:41 AM, said:

Let me help you out.

https://www.sarna.ne..._Gauss_Rifle_40
Game Rules

Unlike some other weapons using cluster munitions, there is no modifier on the initial attack roll. However, when a hit is scored, a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle receives a +2 modifier on the Cluster Hits table at short range, and a –2 modifier at long range. Modified rolls above 12 or below 2 are treated as a 12 or 2 respectively. Damage location is then determined in 5-point groups plus any remainder below 5 being the final roll.

Yeah, looks like a typical sniper weapon /sarcasm

It uses the same hit table as MRMs...just for your interest.

And this is exactly why it shows that the cauldron is a biased bunch of snipers.


What people forget, though, that this also has consequences on mech types. Speed gets less and less useful because the mechs which are fast, are usually lower weight, pack less punch etc and because the crazy velocity values make them easier to hit than every before (lol 25% velocity quirks e.g. for PPCs, HAG velocity itself and so on)

Don't get me started on risk vs. reward decisions.

The Cauldron simply has no idea of the chain of consequences these changes have. Do you want more proof? More ammo for ballistic weapons...hey, now they can carry even more weapons because each ton provides more shots. So the TTK gets lower and lower. And e.g. autocannons are carried usually mostly by fatties. Again, the speedy mechs get shafted.

And this is the whole Cauldron formula: Big mechs + sniping = max reward followed by big mechs + alpha laser vomit = max reward.

Let's favour fatties some more?

There is a big factor that is conveniently forgotten every time I see these comparisons.

If HAG40 rapid fired 40 slugs each doing 1 damage, then yes, a spread would have cause the effect you are looking for, which is saturating an area with damage.
A random pattern over 40 shots properly represent a spread pattern.

With 8 slugs to work with, a random pattern leads to unreliable performance, with shots completely missing rather than actually spreading across an area.

We can't increase the count of these slugs because apparently they are already a burden on the saturated servers.

And besides that, HAGs in general have created issues with damage output that hasn't been in the game before. If you make them useless at 1000 meters, they don't suddenly become ok in 600 meters. They still drill people in 100+ alphas. Now what... spread did nothing and you got deleted like always. What did spread achieve here? Nothing.

HAGs imo are too cold and that's why they can be boosted by lasers so much.

This month they will become hotter.
And next month probably firing 2 HAG30s will apply a massive heat penalty.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 November 2023 - 04:36 PM.

[MOPCKOE]

UP. That's right.

For tier 1-2 I think the game is completely different, they like to just WAIT in one place from some mountain or wall for 15 minutes until the enemy team starts rushing out of boredom.

But this is only 10-20%, the rest of the bulk of players suffer from these “are you leaning out? ok, get minus half of your torso out of nowhere”

I don't play online shooters because they all boil down to sniping and abuse of these mechanics. It's just not interesting.
This game doesn't need that gaussian laser pixel sniping.

[Gas Guzzler]

MOPCKOE, on 20 November 2023 - 04:37 PM, said:

UP. That's right.

For tier 1-2 I think the game is completely different, they like to just WAIT in one place from some mountain or wall for 15 minutes until the enemy team starts rushing out of boredom.

But this is only 10-20%, the rest of the bulk of players suffer from these “are you leaning out? ok, get minus half of your torso out of nowhere”

I don't play online shooters because they all boil down to sniping and abuse of these mechanics. It's just not interesting.
This game doesn't need that gaussian laser pixel sniping.

If you don't play online shooters then why are you even here? This is literally 100% PVP shooting in MechWarrior theme. PvP shooters aren't for everyone and that's fine but at its heart MWO will only be a PVP shooter so I'm not sure what your goal is unless you want to take the Online out of MechWarrior Online. If that was your goal, then I would encourage you to check out MechWarrior 5.

[foamyesque]

Navid A1, on 20 November 2023 - 04:35 PM, said:

There is a big factor that is conveniently forgotten every time I see these comparisons.

If HAG40 rapid fired 40 slugs each doing 1 damage, then yes, a spread would have cause the effect you are looking for, which is saturating an area with damage.
A random pattern over 40 shots properly represent a spread pattern.

With 8 slugs to work with, a random pattern leads to unreliable performance, with shots completely missing rather than actually spreading across an area.

Then just fire another salvo. Not every weapon needs to be perfectly reliable every time, but averaged over your shots it's gonna be useful enough. Spread generating misses -- either hits on the wrong component or clean -- is the entire point of adding spread!

Plus, LBX5/10s exist and so do SRM2, SRM4, and SRM6s, so this argument feels kinda weird. You expect me to believe there's a movement afoot to remove their spread because it doesn't randomwalk well enough? C'mon.

Quote

And besides that, HAGs in general have created issues with damage output that hasn't been in the game before. If you make them useless at 1000 meters, they don't suddenly become ok in 600 meters. They still drill people in 100+ alphas. Now what... spread did nothing and you got deleted like always. What did spread achieve here? Nothing.

HAGs imo are too cold and that's why they can be boosted by lasers so much.

This month they will become hotter.
And next month probably firing 2 HAG30s will apply a massive heat penalty.

As range decreases the number of weapons that can answer HAGs effectively goes up and there's more ability to apply continuous pressure to a HAG machine, particularly a HAG + lasvom machine that'll be running hot on account of the lasers. MRMs, for example, come into play at 600m, so do cERMLs, LPLs for either side, LRMs for what they're worth, etc.

The heat increase is warranted but the arguments I've seen for making HAGs not spread are all bad. LBX10 spread would be my baseline number and I'd adjust up and down from there to see what happens with them based on usage.

[feeWAIVER]

He's saying with 8 shells it isn't consistent enough.
The point of spread is to spread, not to generate lottery ticket hits and misses.
Hags don't cluster fire like lbx and srms, they are rapid fire.

I think it's a fair argument.