145 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 November 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

I didnt say one shot kills, anywhere. In fact, the only time ive mentioned them recently (that i can think of) was in respect to headshots where i defended them being very hard to get.

However, the comment you're replying to is in reference to a specific comment that evokes an image of mechs being able to stand in constant fire from multiple sources for an extended period of time without that damage bring fatal. Theres even a picture provided of exactly that. Thats a really, really long way to the other side from 'one shot kills' and, to me, does not seem fun at all, and i struggle to see how individual pilot skill would matter a lot in that paradigm.

Its possible TTK should be longer than it currently is, sure. It should not be THAT long.

Fair enough. And looking at the image yeah. I get it. (My fault for not seeing that one sooner...)

[LordNothing]

the arbitrariness of the ghost heat is at least partly responsible for some of the high alphas that are possible on the clan side. clan dhs are easy to scapegoat but i think that is too broad of a stroke to be viable without breaking a lot of other things in the process. if you can do 60+ at a specific range bracket without ghost heat, and i have builds that can do this and more, then this is a really broken system. you can do this easy with 6 cermeds + 2 hlls for a gh-free 72 point alpha.

simple fix is to promote the cerml to the large laser group. it does create a problem where by you can now combine 6 cerml and 4 hml for 76 damage. i think 72 at midrange is a lot more viable than 76 in brawl range and if i were to chose id make the former impossible but allow the latter. unless there was a way to have the cerml in both gh groups since its an all around force multiplier for both long and short range builds.

if you cant do that you could bring in the max range of the heavy lasers to 1.5x optimal rather than 2x, this would make the combining of hmls and ermls more of a bracket build. giving all the heavy lasers a max range nerf would be welcome for the medium and large, but i would buff the hsl's optimal to 160 to keep it viable.

would rather get rid of arbitrary ghost heat for something based on damage output over time and which doesnt care what weapons you use. but that means code. of course if dhs nerfs is carpet bombing and the above changes are a bunker buster, this is probibly a nuke.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2023 - 07:51 AM.

[Curccu]

Moadebe, on 13 November 2023 - 06:42 AM, said:

But to the new player coming in. It gets extremely frustrating because more times than not they are punished for the smallest mistakes. Which makes them feel they cant even play at all. So they lose interest because guess what? Video games are more of a hobby. A way to unwind and relax a bit. Perhaps play with friends and relax a bit. You start taking that away from casuals and they wont stick around.

Losing a half a mech and thus half your capability due to a small mistake is not fun. For anyone honestly.

Is this New player view or OPs view what he thinks new players think and feel? OP is Founder of this game and Not new player.

And yes video games like MWO is hobby for me where I unwind and relax a bit, have fun with friends... hardcore comp in me ended when Russ announced maintenance mode Years ago and even then we goofed around.

[Curccu]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2023 - 07:42 AM, said:

the arbitrariness of the ghost heat is at least partly responsible for some of the high alphas that are possible on the clan side. clan dhs are easy to scapegoat but i think that is too broad of a stroke to be viable without breaking a lot of other things in the process. if you can do 60+ at a specific range bracket without ghost heat, and i have builds that can do this and more. you can do this easy with 6 cermeds + 2 hlls for a gh-free 72 point alpha.

simple fix is to promote the cerml to the large laser group. it does create a problem where by you can now combine 6 cerml and 4 hml for 76 damage. i think 72 at midrange is a lot more viable than 76 in brawl range and if i were to chose id make the former impossible but allow the latter. unless there was a way to have the cerml in both gh groups since its an all around force multiplier for both long and short range builds.

if you cant do that you could bring in the max range of the heavy lasers to 1.5x optimal rather than 2x, this would make the combining of hmls and ermls more of a bracket build. giving all the heavy lasers a max range nerf would be welcome for the medium and large, but i would buff the hsl's optimal to 160.

would rather get rid of arbitrary ghost heat for something based on damage output over time and which doesnt care what weapons you use. but that means code. of course if dhs nerfs is carpet bombing and the above changes are a bunker buster, this is probibly a nuke.

How about combining all medium and large lasers to same GH group, now we would have option to shoot small and medium lasers without ghost heat, but range would be wayyyy less than earlier for these larger alphas.
Or just smash all lazors into same group?

[Moadebe]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 07:44 AM, said:

Is this New player view or OPs view what he thinks new players think and feel? OP is Founder of this game and Not new player.

Ok you talkin op as in who you are replying to or the maker of the entire post?

(When I see OP I think of original poster of a forum post...just askin for clarification. Sorry this might just be my derp brain in the AM)

Im asking cause I can tell you...I have seen plenty of people come into the game and quit shortly afterwards with several similar complaints. (TTK, basic mechanics being frustrating, general attitude towards a new player and the "git gud" mindset, not far enough degree of separation from higher tiers [this is more a population issue really]).

There are others but those are the big ones.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 07:49 AM, said:

How about combining all medium and large lasers to same GH group, now we would have option to shoot small and medium lasers without ghost heat, but range would be wayyyy less than earlier for these larger alphas.
Or just smash all lazors into same group?

i consdidered that. having a single group per weapon class would encourage mixed builds more. but i think this is a direct nerf to bracket builds, which are not nor will ever be meta, and if it becomes meta is that a bad thing? could also promote closing the gap rather than holding standoff ranges and bring in more cqb into the game.

but if i were to name the biggest problem with clan lasers, its the combining of hlls and cermls. that outshines the erll problem by a huge margin.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2023 - 08:09 AM.

[LordNothing]

Moadebe, on 13 November 2023 - 07:53 AM, said:

Ok you talkin op as in who you are replying to or the maker of the entire post?

(When I see OP I think of original poster of a forum post...just askin for clarification. Sorry this might just be my derp brain in the AM)

Im asking cause I can tell you...I have seen plenty of people come into the game and quit shortly afterwards with several similar complaints. (TTK, basic mechanics being frustrating, general attitude towards a new player and the "git gud" mindset, not far enough degree of separation from higher tiers [this is more a population issue really]).

There are others but those are the big ones.

i think the biggest gripe with new players is that they are running into established grognards. not even specifically the higher skilled players, just people with experience and huge inventories. simply getting clobbered for their lack of game knowledge, mechs and equipment. this combined with a general lack of depth, a game in decline, and frankly a game that looks ancient, does not seem conductive to new player retention.

of course if there are any actual new players, feel free to chip in.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2023 - 08:07 AM.

[Curccu]

Moadebe, on 13 November 2023 - 07:53 AM, said:

Ok you talkin op as in who you are replying to or the maker of the entire post?

(When I see OP I think of original poster of a forum post...just askin for clarification. Sorry this might just be my derp brain in the AM)

Im asking cause I can tell you...I have seen plenty of people come into the game and quit shortly afterwards with several similar complaints. (TTK, basic mechanics being frustrating, general attitude towards a new player and the "git gud" mindset, not far enough degree of separation from higher tiers [this is more a population issue really]).

There are others but those are the big ones.

Well OP as Opening Post but sure I value your view or knowledge about matter also.
And yes MWO has always have pretty steep learning curve.
Population issue doesn't help it at all if T5/4 players just out of Cadet phase can encounter higher tier players than 3.
Tough game to start solo playing from zero, knowledge of lots of stuff is pretty well hidden by PGI.
And being space poor doesn't help, trial mechs are still horrible and how to know what to buy as 1st mech? So many mechs and so many of those are pure garbage.

[Weeny Machine]

I think it is not just laser vomit. Just take a DW with 2xHAG 40 and 2xERLL...that is 102 dmg in one alpha. This is also nuts.

I disagree that it would involve less skill if you are blown up in seconds - quite the opposite: MWO is a tactical shooter. It would promote the idea of tactics again instead of camping and dull sniping because a higher TTK would promote mobile gameplay again since you wouldn't need to fear to get insta-gibbed once you leave cover.
And even worse: These crazy alpha strikes also invalidate DPS weapons completely.

In general:
The damage output is crazy. It has also led to the "bigger is better" syndrom because you can alpha strike harder.
This becomes visible when you compare lights and assaults. We are really at a point in the game where speed and agility counts less and less because the velocity of ppt weapons and also the alpha strikes are so high that if you sit in a faster mech it doesn't help much (the weenie 20t mechs excluded) plus the light needs to land a crapload of alphas to endanger the assault pilot whereas now 1-2 alphas are enough to cripple or kill the light. Normally it wouldn't be a problem but in a game where the only goal is to kill the enemy, a light mech should have a reasonable chance against an assault.

If you need proof, no assault pilot is complaining about lights anymore. And if an assault pilot isn't crying about lights, you know they are in dire need of help

Edited by Weeny Machine, 13 November 2023 - 10:26 AM.

[pbiggz]

One good way to reduce alphas is to introduce a lot more powerful defensive and utility equipment.

Reflective armor, reactive armor, hardened armor, blue shields, other kinds of ECM, etc. Make them splashy and make them significantly alter the play experience and people will spend less tonnage on guns and more tonnage on not guns. Alpha go down brrrrr.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 13 November 2023 - 11:53 AM, said:

One good way to reduce alphas is to introduce a lot more powerful defensive and utility equipment.

Reflective armor, reactive armor, hardened armor, blue shields, other kinds of ECM, etc. Make them splashy and make them significantly alter the play experience and people will spend less tonnage on guns and more tonnage on not guns. Alpha go down brrrrr.

I think thats called powercreep . Does not "reduce Alphas" .

Edited by Besh, 13 November 2023 - 12:29 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think thats called powercreep . Does not "reduce Alphas" .

The problem is that there is an armour type against energy and one against ballistics. If you get hit by the other type, you get more damage. Now...I wonder how it would feel to have relfective armour and get hit by 2x HAG40....120 dmg...nice

So, it would be a toss of the dice if you wear the right armour type. A bad idea

[pbiggz]

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think thats called powercreep . Does not "reduce Alphas" .

We already have powercreep. And yes, it does reduce alphas. Simply declaring that it does not does not actually make that true.

Weeny Machine, on 13 November 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

The problem is that there is an armour type against energy and one against ballistics. If you get hit by the other type, you get more damage. Now...I wonder how it would feel to have relfective armour and get hit by 2x HAG40....120 dmg...nice

So, it would be a toss of the dice if you wear the right armour type. A bad idea

You can make the same opportunity cost calculation with missiles right now. In fact that's exactly what people do. Why bother with ECM and AMS when you can take a direct fire weapon? Reflective and reactive armor would add a hard countermeasure to existing weapons that do not currently have it, bringing direct fire down a peg or two, and thus closer to missiles. How steep you want the penalty to be for those countermeasures is a matter of debate, but certainly there should be some kind of cost to it.

Its not a bad idea at all. In fact it was in Mechwarrior 4.

Edited by pbiggz, 13 November 2023 - 01:14 PM.

[Besh]

Weeny Machine, on 13 November 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

The problem is that there is an armour type against energy and one against ballistics. If you get hit by the other type, you get more damage. Now...I wonder how it would feel to have relfective armour and get hit by 2x HAG40....120 dmg...nice

So, it would be a toss of the dice if you wear the right armour type. A bad idea

Yep, nicely illustrates my point . The types of armour do not "reduce the Alpha", its value ( dmg. output) stays the same . Impact of it ( dmg received by Target ) is reduced given Target has the proper armor for it, or - as you write - increased if Target has the "wrong" armour . Leading to the problem you thankfully pointed out clearly.

Edited by Besh, 14 November 2023 - 06:05 AM.

[Moadebe]

Good suggestions on the armor stuff.

Lemme ask you one question though?

Do you think we have the Devs and Dev time to implement those types of armors and have them actually interact with the weapons they are meant to counter properly? Is it within the scope that is currently available?

[Moadebe]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 07:44 AM, said:

Is this New player view or OPs view what he thinks new players think and feel? OP is Founder of this game and Not new player.

So since you confirmed that you did mean the original poster as I thought.

I am not a Founder. (wish I was.)

First time I played was during the faction play beta(ish) since I have the FP beta veteran 2 title. (what timeframe that is i have no idea.)

When I refer to newer players I am talking about other people who I have literally talked to who have expressed such things. The list is varied but the main culprits are the ones I stated. The "git gud" attitude was a large one. Balance was the second.

[Curccu]

Moadebe, on 14 November 2023 - 06:08 AM, said:

Good suggestions on the armor stuff.

Lemme ask you one question though?

Do you think we have the Devs and Dev time to implement those types of armors and have them actually interact with the weapons they are meant to counter properly? Is it within the scope that is currently available?

With zero coders... nah it is not possible.
And I'm not even sure it would be better to have, those have strengths and weaknesses... if reflective armor halves energy damage but doubles missile damage... damn Scalesshot is pretty stronk (it is OP atm already).

[LordNothing]

Moadebe, on 14 November 2023 - 06:08 AM, said:

Good suggestions on the armor stuff.

Lemme ask you one question though?

Do you think we have the Devs and Dev time to implement those types of armors and have them actually interact with the weapons they are meant to counter properly? Is it within the scope that is currently available?

really depends on whether or not its hard coded. a lot of things in this game are. nobody had the forethought to break out all the things early on. implementation is really just a matter of applying quirks conditionally based on which upgrade was used. but are those upgrades modable is what it really comes down to.

its certainly a feature ive been asking for.

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think thats called powercreep . Does not "reduce Alphas" .

rather the inverse of power creep, defensive creep. im ok with this.

Weeny Machine, on 13 November 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

The problem is that there is an armour type against energy and one against ballistics. If you get hit by the other type, you get more damage. Now...I wonder how it would feel to have relfective armour and get hit by 2x HAG40....120 dmg...nice

So, it would be a toss of the dice if you wear the right armour type. A bad idea

and thats a bad thing why? a brawler might want to defend itself against ballistics. a sniper hunter might want to protect itself from lasers and ppcs. its sort of like missiles, if you do not like them, then you can install ams, scm, skill derp, etc. if something frustrates you, you have options.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2023 - 01:23 PM.

[Requiemking]

KursedVixen, on 10 November 2023 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yeah light mechs need alot of help and perhaps should be put into a more scouting role with sensor quirks and stuff but not on lights like the adder and such that are built more for firepowere.

Not until the rewards system is fixed to actually make playing that role worth the time and effort. Seeing as that would mean nerfing combat bonuses, though, it's unlikely to happen.

Edited by Requiemking, 15 November 2023 - 03:52 PM.

[cougurt]

Requiemking, on 15 November 2023 - 03:51 PM, said:

Not until the rewards system is fixed to actually make playing that role worth the time and effort. Seeing as that would mean nerfing combat bonuses, though, it's unlikely to happen.

it's not a lack of rewards that makes it not worthwhile, it's the fact that scouting isn't really its own distinct role. the only thing preventing you from scouting AND being combat-capable is choosing to bring an ineffective loadout.