145 replies to this topic

[Bassault]

Please explain to me what is "long range" and what is a "high alpha".

I understand that high alphas are currently a problem but they are almost entirely found in medium range clan laservomit. The only mech I can think of that has a high long range alpha is a dire wold firing 4 erlage 2 gauss at the same time triggering ghost heat, or a Marauder 4L doing 50 PPFLD.

If you think long range is under 700m then you will be promptly ignored and your opinion discarded.

Moadebe, on 12 November 2023 - 11:31 AM, said:

First off thanks for the feedback and insight. I have been trying to not only educate my own self on some things, but also attempt to come up with some solutions to the problem instead of just "discussing it" and airing out frustrations. I do believe in think of the solution and not the problem. Acknowledge the problem....but focusing too much on it does nothing. Hence this entire post.

(I am also just finding the cauldrons discord server and reading up on things...again...would rather be a part of the solution rather than the problem.)

Thanks for the transparency. Posts like what you just did goes a long way into the thought behind things and keeps people informed. Which is ....honestly....lacking. No offense meant...just there is a TON of frustration out there and quite frankly ignorance (which I am guilty of...wont lie....hence the attempting to educate my own self.)

It would be awesome if we got small updates such as what you just posted perhaps on the regular. Perhaps once a month. Two or three weeks before patches. Yeah I know. Saying TOO much will have people saying "well so and so said earlier....why didnt it happen?" I get people can hold onto something and clutch it as truth cause they WANT it to be true.

Just little posts like this goes a long way.

Just go to the cauldron feedback discord server and/or MWO comp discord and you can talk to a cauldron member on demand for free in real time. They often talk about what they're thinking about doing. There are even votes for the community to fill out.

[KursedVixen]

Frost_Byte, on 12 November 2023 - 02:38 AM, said:

Just some thoughts from reading this thread. They are in no particular order.




If you're referring to Data, he left the cauldron in September.



The purpose of the clan double heatsinks nerf proposal was to curb clan high alpha. Clan mechs being able to have extreme alpha strikes, sit back and cooldown, then poke and melt someone again. As of right now, clan midrange vomit is the strongest archetype in the game and we need to pull it back a bit. We're looking at other options as well, maybe a heat nerf on specific weapons rather than slapping clan double heatsinks.


There's no cauldron bias on inner sphere vs clan. I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks there is just doesn't really understand balance in MWO. Each tech base does have its strengths, mind you, but we're not sitting down going "okay we can't let X tech base be stronger than Y." If I was to say which tech base I thought was stronger for QP I'd say clans on average but there's also a lot of representation of both sides in S-Tier mechs.


We're nerfing coolshots in November patch to help curb high alphas. They'll give the same amount of cooling, but it'll be spread over 7 seconds instead of 4 seconds. It's actually pretty noticeable and a pretty big hit.


As for ECM, there have been technical blockers of hardcoded ECM stats that have been blocking Cauldron from truly being able to nerf them for years. I've recently identified core ECM stats that I'll be able to change for Cauldron a few weeks ago after digging through some of the code and variables(I'm an artist first so while I can change a few variables after making sure they're "safe" to edit, a full rework of ECM to make it less problematic is very much beyond me). So now it's just deliberating to find out what the best approach is, but I can assure you that an ECM nerf is coming. Probably more than one.


I wrote a Command Console rework for November patch that Cauldron approved. It rebrands the item to the Advanced Sensor Package, which is a modified targeting computer that gives boosts to sensors and a massive boost to how far a mech can zoom. Actually turns your mech into a telescope. I'm looking forward to it. Here's a writeup I wrote about it on discord.



One final thing: Lore is not an end all be all design guide. For single player or pve games, you can be fully true to the lore and have no real consequences. Especially when you have loot progression. For a single life pvp game like MWO, lore is actually an unbalanced mess. If you look back at the pvp sections of every other mechwarrior game, balance was unobtainable and TTK could be measured in milliseconds in some scenarios. As flawed as it is in some parts, in both current execution and in some cases even original mechanic design, MWO really is the closest mechwarrior pvp has ever been to balanced. So while the original lore and tabletop stats will always guide the vision and should be accepted in the broadest strokes, we cannot adapt it 1:1 and we'll always have to deviate pretty far in the name of an enjoyable and balanced game. As an avid tabletop player(more of other games than battletech though), tabletop balance never really converts to a realtime pvp in a sustainable manner.

The coolshot idea to me makes more sense and I would be fine with such as I don't tend to use alphas much unless i'm in a pinch... The coolshot nerf would limit clan alpha without totally making heat sinks almost redudant or feel like that to some people< i feel like nerfing heat sinks like proposed would cause more problems than it'd fix, people would maybe take all heat sinks off their mech and load more weapons resulting in more alpha. The other problem i see is people jsut suiciding by alphaing in someones face.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 November 2023 - 11:58 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Advanced Sensor Package… 42.5% targeting time boost. I wonder what effect it will have on missile lock times?

[Curccu]

Bassault, on 12 November 2023 - 11:46 AM, said:

Please explain to me what is "long range" and what is a "high alpha".

I understand that high alphas are currently a problem but they are almost entirely found in medium range clan laservomit. The only mech I can think of that has a high long range alpha is a dire wold firing 4 erlage 2 gauss at the same time triggering ghost heat, or a Marauder 4L doing 50 PPFLD.

If you think long range is under 700m then you will be promptly ignored and your opinion discarded.

2xHAG30+2xERLL
works pretty well on assault mechs with decent mounts.

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 November 2023 - 12:26 PM, said:

Advanced Sensor Package… 42.5% targeting time boost. I wonder what effect it will have on missile lock times?

Nothing that is same stuff as TCs already have, gives you paperdoll and other mech info faster.

Edited by Curccu, 12 November 2023 - 12:56 PM.

[Moadebe]

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 November 2023 - 12:26 PM, said:

Advanced Sensor Package… 42.5% targeting time boost. I wonder what effect it will have on missile lock times?

None. Outside of the usual NARC, Tag and the like....nothing passively gives faster lockon. Targeting time boost is just the paper doll information. (someone please correct me if I am wrong....just...yeah.)

[Bassault]

Curccu, on 12 November 2023 - 12:55 PM, said:

2xHAG30+2xERLL
works pretty well on assault mechs with decent mounts.

I can fit that on a Night Gyr, and the Night Gyr can do way better with 1 heavy large 2 ermed 2 hag30.

Also, you aren't hitting anything accurately with hags at +700m unless it's an assault mech or its a mech standing still or running in a straight line at you. The former I agree is a problem, assaults shouldn't have to tank 60 dmg from 2 hag 30s but lights and mediums, as the OP was suggesting, are not suffering from HAGs at all unless that light or medium is very unskilled against a superior skilled opponent with hags.

Edited by Bassault, 12 November 2023 - 02:09 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Moadebe, on 12 November 2023 - 12:56 PM, said:

None. Outside of the usual NARC, Tag and the like....nothing passively gives faster lockon. Targeting time boost is just the paper doll information. (someone please correct me if I am wrong....just...yeah.)

You're almost entirely right. There's one thing: Longer sensor range affects lock-on time on indirect fire missile locks a little bit.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 12 November 2023 - 02:22 PM.

[Besh]

epikt, on 12 November 2023 - 10:48 AM, said:

Translation: wet noodles combat. No thanks.

The Game somewhat needs to get to a state where new Players dont get instaboomed by the slightest mistake . It wont retain many people to smugly tell them "git gud", because most people will never get to 90th or even 80th percentile skill lvl . No amount of trying to "git gud" will save them [I am speaking from experience ] .

TTK has been a hot topic for a good while when MW:O was fresh. I to this day do not understand how it happened the twitchshooter instagib crowd won that debate .

I can see how entrenched people can become when having been at the Game for what, 11 years now? Look at my founders Tag. I personally just want the Game to go on, and if that means pissing off some people, I am not opposed to that .

Because the Game needs new players . And it needs them to stay once they found it . Increasing TTK is an option, and it needs to be possible to open up that part of the dialogue again so it can get examined at least .

Unless ofc the powers that be say "No."

Edited by Besh, 13 November 2023 - 01:37 AM.

[Curccu]

Besh, on 12 November 2023 - 11:46 PM, said:

The Game somewhat needs to get to a state where new Players dont get instaboomed by the slightest mistake . It wont retain many people to smugly tell them "git gud", because most people will never get to 90th or even 80th percentile skill lvl . No amount of trying to "git gud" will save them [I am speaking from experience ] .

TTK has been a hot topic for a good while when MW:O was fresh. I to this day do not understand how it happened the twitchshooter instagib crowd won that debate .

I can see how entrenched people can become when having been at the Game for what, 11 years now? Look at my founders Tag. I personally just want the Game to go on, and if that means pissing off some people, I am not opposed to that .

Because the Game needs new players . And it needs them to stay once they found it . Increasing TTK is an option, and it needs to be possible to open up that part of the dialogue again so it can get examined at least .

Unless ofc the powers that be say "No."

New players don't get instaboomed because T5.... people in there are extremely bad at aiming and so on.

[Besh]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 01:46 AM, said:

New players don't get instaboomed because T5.... people in there are extremely bad at aiming and so on.

You seem to think MM is somewhat working ? Plus, have you heard about alt accounts ?

Edited by Besh, 13 November 2023 - 02:26 AM.

[Curccu]

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 02:15 AM, said:

You seem to think MM is somewhat working ? Plus, have you heard about alt accounts ?

Yes somewhat working, T5s shouldn't encounter T1s.
If good players want to alt sealclub they will do that no matter what kind of weapon balance we got, good experienced player will always defeat beginners easily.

[Besh]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 02:45 AM, said:

Yes somewhat working, T5s shouldn't encounter T1s.
If good players want to alt sealclub they will do that no matter what kind of weapon balance we got, good experienced player will always defeat beginners easily.

Idk, you are tier 1 . I am telling you what I see, from where are your points coming ? Theory ? Additionally, it is you thinking it takes a t1 to instagib newbs, not me .

bonus : my post wasnt about weapons balance .

Edited by Besh, 13 November 2023 - 02:57 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

East Indy, on 12 November 2023 - 10:36 AM, said:

The perception problem is that most people, whether BattleTech fans or prospective players, envision this as the game

The key is leaving behind a lot of lore, but on a paper-design, vision level that acknowledges the expectation of a short-/medium-range, rumble-style engagements with constant reciprocation of fire and very high TTK.

It makes a pretty picture, but i cannot envisage a way it would make a game i would enjoy playing for more than 5 minutes.

Constant reciprocation of fire and very high TTK means, necessarily, that weapons fire is pretty weak and ineffectual. Meaning mistakes wont be punished and winning plays wont be possible. Where's the route to excel?

[Besh]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 November 2023 - 03:24 AM, said:

It makes a pretty picture, but i cannot envisage a way it would make a game i would enjoy playing for more than 5 minutes.

Constant reciprocation of fire and very high TTK means, necessarily, that weapons fire is pretty weak and ineffectual. Meaning mistakes wont be punished and winning plays wont be possible. Where's the route to excel?

What needs to change is t1 players thinking their kind of gameplay, and their experience of the Game has any positive bearing on Player retention. Your experience and expectations of the Game are in no way representative . In fact, the higher skilled, the more you are in the minority, and almost exclusively catering the Game towards you and what you prefer is detrimental .

Should the improbable happen, and enough highly skilled people get that into their heads, fruitfull dialogue may be possible .

Edited by Besh, 13 November 2023 - 03:34 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 03:32 AM, said:

What needs to change is t1 players thinking their kind of gameplay, and their experience of the Game has any positive bearing on Player retention. Your experience and expectations of the Game are in no way representative . In fact, the higher skilled, the more you are in the minority, and almost exclusively catering the Game towards you and what you prefer is detrimental .

Should the improbable happen, and enough highly skilled people get that into their heads, fruitfull dialogue may be possible .

I genuinely cant see how this reply relates to my comment. Could you elaborate?

[Curccu]

Besh, on 13 November 2023 - 02:48 AM, said:

Idk, you are tier 1 . I am telling you what I see, from where are your points coming ? Theory ? Additionally, it is you thinking it takes a t1 to instagib newbs, not me .

bonus : my post wasnt about weapons balance .

Played some games last Year with alt account because someone from T5 claimed that game is same for T5s and T1s... well it wasn't same, people were just standing and it was ok because people also barely hit standing targets. It was not fun experience for me and most likely not to those in receiving end either.

Also friend of mine who is very good player started playing again last week after multi Year break and his account was resetted to T5, was just telling me how horrible low tiers are with similar description that I just gave.

People are at T5 because they are new players OR they are long time playeres who are bad at this game ---> they do not instagib stuff.

Edit: PS. Bonus: OP post sure did mention weapon balance multiple times if not about weapon balance... and your information warfare changes would indirectly affect weapon balance also.

Edited by Curccu, 13 November 2023 - 05:47 AM.

[Moadebe]

Curccu, on 13 November 2023 - 01:46 AM, said:

New players don't get instaboomed because T5.... people in there are extremely bad at aiming and so on.

Yes...they do

[Moadebe]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 November 2023 - 03:24 AM, said:

Constant reciprocation of fire and very high TTK means, necessarily, that weapons fire is pretty weak and ineffectual. Meaning mistakes wont be punished and winning plays wont be possible. Where's the route to excel?

If one shot mechanics are your idea of winning plays then I hate to say it...you are wrong. That is just objectively wrong. Higher TTK doesnt mean someone cant make plays. It just means mistakes are LESS punishing. Especially to someone who is still learning.

In fact being able to make mistakes without being crippled for it is what lent to the phrase "tactical shooter." Where its not Call of Duty where you are shooting someone over and over only to be hit once and dead.

Calling targets. Calling weak spots. Calling movements and hitting targets of opportunity are ALL a thing. Which right now happens yes. But to a very lesser extent when a full alpha can core someone out in one shot and kill em the next. Even on an assault.

Not really a good take.

[Moadebe]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 November 2023 - 03:52 AM, said:

I genuinely cant see how this reply relates to my comment. Could you elaborate?

You said...

"It makes a pretty picture, but i cannot envisage a way it would make a game i would enjoy playing for more than 5 minutes."

He said...

What needs to change is t1 players thinking their kind of gameplay, and their experience of the Game has any positive bearing on Player retention. Your experience and expectations of the Game are in no way representative . In fact, the higher skilled, the more you are in the minority, and almost exclusively catering the Game towards you and what you prefer is detrimental .

Thats what is being pointed out.

People fighting for their idea of the game. Hes pointing out that people in T1 tend to look at the game in its current state and see nothing really wrong. Whereas people in T5 or even T4 can feel there is a ton wrong.

We can shout to the winds "git gud" all we want. Bottom line is if someone finds the game. Gets excited to even play it. Then actually does and its crap show of people peaking and poking. Not being able to see where a shot came from and not understanding it. Losing half a mech just because they made a mistake that they just didnt know about....

It causes frustration and new blood to leave because they dont want to deal with it. Its the same problem that many pvp games have after being around a long time. There is a high skill cap group who is really good (think t1 and t2 and some T3) who are veterans of the game and know the nuances that just can walk all over someone who is just learning it. Not really their fault honestly...they are playing the game how they know.

But to the new player coming in. It gets extremely frustrating because more times than not they are punished for the smallest mistakes. Which makes them feel they cant even play at all. So they lose interest because guess what? Video games are more of a hobby. A way to unwind and relax a bit. Perhaps play with friends and relax a bit. You start taking that away from casuals and they wont stick around.

Losing a half a mech and thus half your capability due to a small mistake is not fun. For anyone honestly.

[Widowmaker1981]

Moadebe, on 13 November 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

If one shot mechanics are your idea of winning plays then I hate to say it...you are wrong. That is just objectively wrong. Higher TTK doesnt mean someone cant make plays. It just means mistakes are LESS punishing. Especially to someone who is still learning.

I didnt say one shot kills, anywhere. In fact, the only time ive mentioned them recently (that i can think of) was in respect to headshots where i defended them being very hard to get.

However, the comment you're replying to is in reference to a specific comment that evokes an image of mechs being able to stand in constant fire from multiple sources for an extended period of time without that damage bring fatal. Theres even a picture provided of exactly that. Thats a really, really long way to the other side from 'one shot kills' and, to me, does not seem fun at all, and i struggle to see how individual pilot skill would matter a lot in that paradigm.

Its possible TTK should be longer than it currently is, sure. It should not be THAT long.