106 replies to this topic

[An Actual Walrus]

Frost_Byte, on 23 November 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

We decided to nerf Clan DHS dissipation from 0.22 to 0.2 in the December patch.

Wait, are you serious? I'm going to try really hard to understand this, because that would be one of the most ridiculous changes possible. The Heat Sinks that are meant to be superior will be inferior to the Inner Sphere ones.

[foamyesque]

@Frost_Byte:

Thought I had in regards to HAGs and spread: Would it be possible to make the first shot of a burst -- and only that first shot -- have zero'd spread, with the rest bouncing around? That'd reduce the 'lottery' aspect you've said is a problem with spread before, since the first one will always go where you aimed it (within the usual limits of mounts and aim and so on), with the rest jittering around to disperse the concentrated alpha that makes HAGs an issue right now. This would also mean that HAG20s would be inherently the most accurate HAGs and 40s the least, meaning you're trading raw damage for precision even if the firecone is the same value on each.

It would have an intuitively obvious explanation, too: The spread on the second-and-beyond shots in the burst is caused by the burst's recoil.

[Weeny Machine]

An Actual Walrus, on 24 November 2023 - 07:42 PM, said:

Wait, are you serious? I'm going to try really hard to understand this, because that would be one of the most ridiculous changes possible. The Heat Sinks that are meant to be superior will be inferior to the Inner Sphere ones.

Don't argue with lore. HAGs are no Battletech HAGs either nor is ECM a Battletech ECM etc.

That being said: I don't say the changes are good, but in general a lot of tabletop rules are not carrying over well.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 24 November 2023 - 10:27 PM.

[Curccu]

An Actual Walrus, on 24 November 2023 - 07:42 PM, said:

Wait, are you serious? I'm going to try really hard to understand this, because that would be one of the most ridiculous changes possible. The Heat Sinks that are meant to be superior will be inferior to the Inner Sphere ones.

They are... 2 slots vs 3 slots that is pretty damn superior.

[An Actual Walrus]

Curccu, on 25 November 2023 - 12:26 AM, said:

They are... 2 slots vs 3 slots that is pretty damn superior.

And yet, ton for ton, the Inner Sphere (that has colder weapons already) will have an average dissipation advantage. A 9.1% loss in heat dissipation efficiency is stupidly high.

[Moadebe]

An Actual Walrus, on 25 November 2023 - 03:57 AM, said:

And yet, ton for ton, the Inner Sphere (that has colder weapons already) will have an average dissipation advantage. A 9.1% loss in heat dissipation efficiency is stupidly high.

But.....BUT.....IS weapons generally take up more critical slots, and are overall heavier than Clan weapons. Which IS Double heatsinks require 3 critical slots instead of clan's 2.

You cant even put heatsinks in the legs unless you go single heatsinks.

Comparing heat dissipation efficiency 1:1 on the two is something you cant do due to other factors at play. There isn't a magic behind that. That's just facts.

[GoodTry]

An Actual Walrus, on 24 November 2023 - 07:42 PM, said:

Wait, are you serious? I'm going to try really hard to understand this, because that would be one of the most ridiculous changes possible. The Heat Sinks that are meant to be superior will be inferior to the Inner Sphere ones.

Clan mechs are supposed to be superior to IS mechs, too. But this is a video game and they made the decision that all mechs should be balanced. So something has to give.

To me, complaining that Clan heat sinks are being adjusted because of the lore is super weird when Clan mechs generally are just not what they are in lore.

[Tarl Cabot]

GoodTry, on 25 November 2023 - 07:35 AM, said:

Clan mechs are supposed to be superior to IS mechs, too. But this is a video game and they made the decision that all mechs should be balanced. So something has to give.

To me, complaining that Clan heat sinks are being adjusted because of the lore is super weird when Clan mechs generally are just not what they are in lore.

Just a slight correction, stock clan mechs are generally superior to stock IS mechs, as well as the mechwarriors in lore/Battletech boardgame, where dice rolls determine hit/miss and locations for each weapon, not each weapon group or TIC. And the Clan warriors, in general, had better gunnery and pilot skills. And there is no mechlabs to do massive changes. Clans have their omnipods, and each variant was generally available to be switched out in a hour or so, dependent on the COC approach, whereas stock IS mechs did not have that ability, they dropped/approached an encounter with the same configurations. All of their available variant are primarily House designations, and unless it was captured and put into use, one would not see a DCMS variant being used in a Steiner or Davion unit.

An interesting fact. When FASA playtested the Clans vs IS with 3025 tech, Clans initially were piloting Star League type mechs and said equipment but were stopped cold while using their Clan approach to battles. That is when FASA developed Clan tech we see today, much to FASA devs regrets. By the time they realized how overpowering it was in general, it was too late to pull that plug. Again, we are talking about Stock builds, no mechlab to min/max things but one could say with Clan Omni, and ability to switch out whole weapon pods, most were not anemic in their setups.

As for adjusting heatsink characteristics, tis not the first time, nor will it likely be the last time, it simply one way in their attempt to control the flow of battle.

[nitra]

I think the hags were what the clan needed to buff there dakka abilities, potent. but coupled with the power creep and weapon slot increments, the damage output on the field has just become insane. thusly limiting the playabilty of the maps, the other day i watched two kodiacs get melted in less than 15 seconds, i was going to work an angle and support them with additional fire support, however both were destroyed before my eyes ( by not even a full lance), as i turned to run, the amount of damage i received was concerning, (dragon) even though im use to being shredded in this mech , this time and a few other times, the new incoming damage is just insane now.

i dont think heat is the answer and it may be time to remove some weapon slots from some of the newer mechs, and maybe tone down damage output a tiny bit on all weapons, to increase survivability and prolong engagements so they are meaningful.

i dont say this lightly as i am long supporter of the Bag o guns philosophy of mech design . but i think we have crossed a line and are in an uncomfortable spot when it comes to fun in the game.

Edited by nitra, 25 November 2023 - 09:25 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Tarl Cabot, on 25 November 2023 - 08:11 PM, said:

An interesting fact. When FASA playtested the Clans vs IS with 3025 tech, Clans initially were piloting Star League type mechs and said equipment but were stopped cold while using their Clan approach to battles. That is when FASA developed Clan tech we see today, much to FASA devs regrets. By the time they realized how overpowering it was in general, it was too late to pull that plug. Again, we are talking about Stock builds, no mechlab to min/max things but one could say with Clan Omni, and ability to switch out whole weapon pods, most were not anemic in their setups.

And the board game developed battle points to even out the teams instead of just tonnage. Meanwhile the fiction added the concept of the Batchall to clan warfare so clan commanders would decide not to use enough strength to utterly crush IS forces.

[Curccu]

An Actual Walrus, on 25 November 2023 - 03:57 AM, said:

And yet, ton for ton, the Inner Sphere (that has colder weapons already) will have an average dissipation advantage. A 9.1% loss in heat dissipation efficiency is stupidly high.

mad-iic build an IS mech with laser alpha similar to that and have as good or better sustained DPS (Lets forget IS XL issues and possible speed difference because those don't matter at all.).

[Weeny Machine]

Frost_Byte, on 23 November 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

We decided to nerf Clan DHS dissipation from 0.22 to 0.2 in the December patch.

Across the board or remain the 10 hs in the reactor untouched? If you nerf them across the board, then Clan lights are truly screwed

[Navid A1]

Weeny Machine, on 26 November 2023 - 06:31 AM, said:

Across the board or remain the 10 hs in the reactor untouched? If you nerf them across the board, then Clan lights are truly screwed

It is across the board. Internal and external.

[kalashnikity]

Frost_Byte, on 23 November 2023 - 01:24 PM, said:

Hey all.

I've seen some reviews of the patch notes and it seems some of the playerbase is confused as to the decisions we made balance wise so I thought I'd make a post to help clear up some of the misconceptions.

First things first, by we I mean Cauldron. PGI doesn't do the balancing for MWO anymore. This is probably a bit confusing since I'm a dev and am a member of the Cauldron, but for this post the "we" means Cauldron
Second things second, not all Cauldron members agree with the direction we've taken with HAGs. So if I say Cauldron did something, that means that the consensus Cauldron reached via vote. There are plenty of members who have disagreed and are always free to voice their opinions of dissent publicly and privately. Since Cauldron is democratic, not everyone has to be on board with everything.

So let's start with the elephant in the room, HAGs. Since their inception, HAGs have been a very powerful weapon. It's true that they had a spread stat at the start that was pretty severe, but in the September patch we nerfed the HAG volley delay. For those who don't know, this means that the time in between HAG shells was increased, slowing down the speed of your burst. This increased volley delay causes a pretty significant amount of spread when your target is moving or at range, so we felt that the spread stat was safe to remove. At long ranges, HAGs are not effective damage unless the target is standing still. HAGs are not effective sniping weapons, it is very difficult to pinpoint on a mech more than 700m away unless they are either 100 tons or standing still. The Cauldron members are some of the best players this game currently has to offer, and if they are struggling to do it consistently then it is a safe upper limit of the weapon. So I hope that explains the spread, the long time it takes to get your burst of shells out acts as a spread of its own and we didn't feel the need to give the weapon 2 spread stats.

With spread taken care of, HAGs were still a problem inside of ranges of 600m. Outside of 600m, they weren't that problematic as sniping weapons as long as you're moving. They operate like an AC2 at range, they can farm good damage but struggle to kill. Inside of 600m, they were drilling machines. The problem was that mechs could equip HAGs + too many other weapons to acheive absurb alpha strikes. Too many clan assaults were getting alpha strikes of over 100 damage and not shutting down from heat. The solution to that was just a major HAG heat nerf, which we did in the November patch. Many mechs struggle to carry serious amounts of lasers with their HAGs now, which should solve the problem of extreme alpha strikes. If it doesn't, we'll just heat nerf again.

All things considered, the removal of spread so low that it did nothing, a massive heat nerf, and a minor cooldown nerf makes this patch a major HAG net nerf. I've played them a lot this patch and they feel closer to appropriately balanced. But they're still too strong and we plan on nerfing them again. This December we are looking at a velocity nerf and maybe a CDHS nerf. But that's not set in stone, Cauldron may decide to do something else.

As far as other misc things, I've seen talk about the Stalker 4N losing the ability to fire 4 BLC. The mech carried a high alpha and Cauldron's aim over the next few months is to reduce the high-alpha creep and slow time to kill, this was one of those mechs that was just too strong. With 4 Binaries all up in the arms giving it the best poking profile in the game, the incredible tankiness of a Stalker, plus the incredible hitboxes of a Stalker, its just a beast. 3 BLC 3 ERML is still very strong on it, just not OP.

I hope this help clears up some of the decisions this patch. As with all patches, if we don't get things right here then we'll take more steps in the next patch. Cauldron IS aware that HAGs are OP. The mindset is to take conservative and measured steps, rather than dropping a nerf nuke from orbit.





As a side note, we are aware of the increased loading times and instability in the game. The loading times have been solved and repaired. For those of you who hate the Christmas mechlab, I'm sorry to say that it wasn't the cause of the loading time increase so that'll be staying.

We're still working on the instability and have a few potential fixes that we should be rolling out here soon, so stay tuned for an announcement on that.

In other words you carefully tuned HAGS to nerf them in general, but also buff them to benefit the "best players", i.e. yourselves and your preferred play styles.

As always...

[Moadebe]

kalashnikity, on 26 November 2023 - 07:10 PM, said:

In other words you carefully tuned HAGS to nerf them in general, but also buff them to benefit the "best players", i.e. yourselves and your preferred play styles.

As always...

Wait until you hear they wanna give HAGs splash.....

YES there are some in the cauldron who want to add splash to HAGs. Each "bullet" of a HAG volley currently does 5 damage each. Talks are apparently there to make it 1 point of splash with 4 damage pinpoint.

Yet (mark my words) it WILL be a HUGE can of worms if its put in. Between how it punishes actual proper play i.e. side torso is almost gone so you twist properly to shield torso with arm. The arm eats the damage but because of the splash it blows off the torso anyways. Not very intuitive and not rewarding gameplay. (This is my MAIN argument against adding splash to HAGs. It is NOT skillful gameplay which is what the cauldron is about right? RIGHT?!)

My second argument is that there are hit reg issues in this game. They are not happening ALL the time. There could be days go by of straight playing and it not happen, but there are instances either caused by server lag to client, some wonky hitbox, a lights "lag armor", or whatever where it gives the appearance of hit reg issues.

The fact this exists doesnt go well towards easing player frustration. New players coming in who experience this even once will start thinking its more prevalent than it actually is. It IS an EASY scapegoat. Just blame the game. New players WONT stay around if this perception sticks with them....cause "crap game mechanics."

Adding another weapon system that gives splash will exacerbate this issue overall. Not helping public perception. I know balance shouldn't be done around player perception....sure. I 100% agree about that.

But you are doing no favors in adding a mechanic that will cause more perceptions of wonky hitboxes, bad hit reg (I shielded that wtf), and minimizing actual strategic play (despite me shielding properly im still losing components.)

Before anyone calls out the obvious ERPPC....thats one shot. at 15 damage. That only has one chance to crit.

Adding splash on a volley that has what? 4 (hag20), 6 (hag 30), and 8 (hag 40) chances to crit at the crit rate of a gauss rifle (I mean they ARE gauss rifles right? So they have the same crit chances as a gauss rifle right? I mean if I am ignorant on this please feel free to educate on HAG crits...) Would the splash have crit as well at the rate of a gauss rifle? I mean ERPPCs splash already does crit as it is....

Then add in the high damage....

Here....here is a question. WHY are we not treating hags along the same lines as heavy gauss? We were so in an uproar over the introduction of heavy gauss and its 25 pin point damage. We put in the limitations that it had to have a standard engine (effectively raising the weapons overall tonnage even more and limiting it to side torso's only.) Also limiting it to heavier mechs if you wanted to take two of them. Also add in its range reduction to a brawl short range weapon...with Gauss like damage at longer ranges.....gee...

Why are we still trying to justify the amount of damage that HAGs can do at such a long range and by that standard even a medium range without extreme limitations being done....

Yes clans whole setup is different and omni mechs fixed equipment and all that. I get it. But we can do better than "hey lets only care about heat...perhaps some velocity....oh you dont like it? Dont stand still.....like laser burn doesnt exist or the slight period where you are walking around a corner in a sluggish assault and needing to stop and back up....but you gotta actually start moving backwards first to get there.

(mobility exists you know....I know. Not everyone takes those needed skills and heavier mechs are sluggish....even some lights are....)

Oh wait its a skill issue..."get gud" ..... right?

smh

[Navid A1]

kalashnikity, on 26 November 2023 - 07:10 PM, said:

In other words you carefully tuned HAGS to nerf them in general, but also buff them to benefit the "best players", i.e. yourselves and your preferred play styles.

As always...

A massive 30% heat nerf on top of an already hot weapon, plus nerf to cool shots, in exchange for removing a spread stats that didn't matter whatsoever, especially under 600 meters.

Give HAGs a try in game right now. See if your conspiracy theory still holds up.

Edited by Navid A1, 26 November 2023 - 10:56 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Navid A1, on 26 November 2023 - 03:15 PM, said:

It is across the board. Internal and external.

Thanks for the answer. This is really unfortunate and a good example why the lights get yet again screwed because of the biggies. Even a 5xERML ACH will severely struggle with heat...and a 30 dmg alpha in this meta is nothing great especially considering the heat issues.

Navid A1, on 26 November 2023 - 10:56 PM, said:

A massive 30% heat nerf on top of an already hot weapon, plus nerf to cool shots, in exchange for removing a spread stats that didn't matter whatsoever, especially under 600 meters.

Give HAGs a try in game right now. See if your conspiracy theory still holds up.

The problem still is that a 2 x HAG 40 will end a light and possibly even a medium or at least cripple him in one volley. You are not in motion all the time. With the range and ECM it is not unrealistic at all that you get an angle on a target and blow him off.
Again: heat is a factor but less for snipers. Pretending that the sniping fetishists of the cauldron don't know it is not really realistic, sorry

Again: 2 x AC20 with relatively low range have ghost heat, but long range HAGs, even the huge ones, fired in tandem are ok...pfff

Edited by Weeny Machine, 27 November 2023 - 01:01 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Weeny Machine, on 27 November 2023 - 12:52 AM, said:

Again: 2 x AC20 with relatively low range have ghost heat, but long range HAGs, even the huge ones, fired in tandem are ok...pfff

HAG40 very much induce ghost heat when fired in pairs.
https://mwo.nav-alph...pment/ghostheat
MechDB has not been updated to the latest heat changes.

[Besh]

Weeny Machine, on 27 November 2023 - 12:52 AM, said:

Thanks for the answer. This is really unfortunate and a good example why the lights get yet again screwed because of the biggies. Even a 5xERML ACH will severely struggle with heat...and a 30 dmg alpha in this meta is nothing great especially considering the heat issues.


The problem still is that a 2 x HAG 40 will end a light and possibly even a medium or at least cripple him in one volley. You are not in motion all the time. With the range and ECM it is not unrealistic at all that you get an angle on a target and blow him off.
Again: heat is a factor but less for snipers. Pretending that the sniping fetishists of the cauldron don't know it is not really realistic, sorry

Again: 2 x AC20 with relatively low range have ghost heat, but long range HAGs, even the huge ones, fired in tandem are ok...pfff

Trying out HAGs first time 2 days ago, I had no trouble whatsoever rounding a corner and dualHAG20 legging a jumping Jenner . I was actually surprised how easy it was ^^.

[killkimno]

Frost_Byte, on 23 November 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

We decided to nerf Clan DHS dissipation from 0.22 to 0.2 in the December patch.

Really???

Most weapons in the clan still generate high heat.

In addition, most ClanMechs have no Quirks or very low Quirks.

look at this
https://mwo.nav-alph...ee051a5_MAD-IIC


Since it only depends on energy, even 18 additional heats cannot handle the heat.
Even a medium laser, which is not a heavy weapon, cannot handle the heat.

This is because it only has energy armament and no quarks themselves.


Otherwise, can barely handle the heat if you wear weapons that are worse than a medium mech.

Because Clan Laser is too hot and there are too many Mech without Quirks.